When Did librarians come back?

[daveNYC]

The way I see this is that the big E merely stopped the librarium project, i.e. the organized training to use psychic powers and gather of arcane knowledge. SW never actually started their own branch of that project, but rather only used individual persons with innate psychic abilities (as opposed to learning them by studying the dark arts). The use of warp 'talents' was still allowed in traditional ways, like astropaths and navigators (and maybe even rune priests).

 

Astropaths and Navigators aren't traditional forms of psyker power, they're critical pieces of the Imperium's infrastructure. There isn't even anything natural about astropaths, they need to be soul-bound in order to pull of their tricks. The Emperor stopped the use of psykers outside of those two roles because without the use of Navigators and Astropaths, the Imperium effectively ceases to exist.

 

And at no point is there any indication that any psykers within the Thousand Sons (or any other legion) did not have innate abilities, though in the case of the Sons their geneseed might have enhanced or given abilities to those that did not have them previously.

 

As far as Rune Priests running around post-Nikea, it could have been easily explained if the Wolves just said that the Priests had important duties keeping the traditions of the Legion or something. Instead in Fear to Tread, you get the Wolves basically saying, "Yeah, he's a Rune Priest, now shut up and let us see your primarch." Guh.

 

I suspect that what will happen is that over half the loyal legions will decide that librarians are just too useful in the fight against the various warp critters that are coming along with the traitor legions, so by the time that the siege for Terra occurs, Malcador will decide that reinstating the librarians is a lot easier than condemning a pile of loyalists but promising to go easy on the punnishment as long as they stick around to defend the palace.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually even better, in FiT, the response was "He's a Rune Priest." *turns to Rune Priest* "Don't let them find out your a psyker." But truth be told, doesn't really mean much since it's circumstantial.

[Grimtooth]

Actually even better, in FiT, the response was "He's a Rune Priest." *turns to Rune Priest* "Don't let them find out your a psyker." But truth be told, doesn't really mean much since it's circumstantial.

 

Actually the response was more along the lines of,

 

"He is NOT a witch."

 

It was the BA first captain saying the rune priest should be returned back to the battle lines per the edict and the response was along the lines above.

[MadDoc]

Actually the response was more along the lines of,

 

"He is NOT a witch."

 

It was the BA first captain saying the rune priest should be returned back to the battle lines per the edict and the response was along the lines above.

Actually it was more along the lines of - "He is not a witch-mind (an archaic/primitive term for psyker)"

In otherwords, he flatout lied...

 

A remark which was followed by a behind closed doors warning that the Rune Priest in question be careful and not let the BA catch on that he is in fact a psyker...

 

Good to see you're remaining consistent though. Focusing on the "witch" part of witch-mind, to the exclusion of all else, so that it can be made to seem that FTT backs up your position. :D

[Kol Saresk]

Heel MadDoc! Heel! Kidding, don't shoot

[Grimtooth]

Actually the response was more along the lines of,

 

"He is NOT a witch."

 

It was the BA first captain saying the rune priest should be returned back to the battle lines per the edict and the response was along the lines above.

Actually it was more along the lines of - "He is not a witch-mind (an archaic/primitive term for psyker)"

In otherwords, he flatout lied...

 

A remark which was followed by a behind closed doors warning that the Rune Priest in question be careful and not let the BA catch on that he is in fact a psyker...

 

Good to see you're remaining consistent though. Focusing on the "witch" part of witch-mind, to the exclusion of all else, so that it can be made to seem that FTT backs up your position. :huh:

 

Actually he is equating what was levied against the Thousand Sons at the Council of Nikaea and how his rune priest is NOT one of them and therefore NOT violating the edict. He even goes so far as to say that it is a common misconception that the BA first captain is "forgiven" for making. When pushed by the BA first captain he even further distances himself from the edict by making the remark about his power being pure and from Fenris.

 

Later on, Redknife warns the rune priest is being watched by the BA chaplain for "witchery". Again a reference to the charges that were levied against the Thousand Sons at the Council and therefore again what the BA would be under the misconception is outlawed.

 

I am sure the rune priest would forgive you for your continued common miscomceptions regarding rune priests and the Edict of Nikaea

[Kol Saresk]

Here we go again.

[Arkangilos]

Actually the response was more along the lines of,

 

"He is NOT a witch."

 

It was the BA first captain saying the rune priest should be returned back to the battle lines per the edict and the response was along the lines above.

Actually it was more along the lines of - "He is not a witch-mind (an archaic/primitive term for psyker)"

In otherwords, he flatout lied...

 

A remark which was followed by a behind closed doors warning that the Rune Priest in question be careful and not let the BA catch on that he is in fact a psyker...

 

Good to see you're remaining consistent though. Focusing on the "witch" part of witch-mind, to the exclusion of all else, so that it can be made to seem that FTT backs up your position. :o

 

Actually he is equating what was levied against the Thousand Sons at the Council of Nikaea and how his rune priest is NOT one of them and therefore NOT violating the edict. He even goes so far as to say that it is a common misconception that the BA first captain is "forgiven" for making. When pushed by the BA first captain he even further distances himself from the edict by making the remark about his power being pure and from Fenris.

 

Later on, Redknife warns the rune priest is being watched by the BA chaplain for "witchery". Again a reference to the charges that were levied against the Thousand Sons at the Council and therefore again what the BA would be under the misconception is outlawed.

 

I am sure the rune priest would forgive you for your continued common miscomceptions regarding rune priests and the Edict of Nikaea

 

This is completely ridiculous, and you know it is. They knew it was against the rules, and they were right to assume that if he used his powers, he would be condemned as the EXACT same thing that was banned.

 

You can call a crap a flower, but it will always smell like a turd. (Much like a Rune Priest :D )

[Augustus]

You can call a crap a flower, but it will always smell like a turd. (Much like a Rune Priest )

 

Lol.

The answer is: they sorta of never. Some Legions ignored it, others gradually reinstated them for various reasons, and some never had them.

 

End.

[DarthMarko]

Then Custodians and SoS were suppose to arrest them ???? LOL ,they even fought with them....so rationalize that...anyway magic circle again...

 

You can call a crap a flower, but it will always smell like a turd. (Much like a Rune Priest :D )

*slow clap*

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Definitely some Monty Python Witch burning logic at work here. Rune Priests weigh the same as a duck. Hence they are made of wood.

 

"Who are you who is so wise in the ways of science?!"

[DarthMarko]

Definitely some Monty Python Witch burning logic at work here. Rune Priests weigh the same as a duck. Hence they are made of wood.

 

"Who are you who is so wise in the ways of science?!"

LOL I remember that....

Nobody is disputing that they are pure psykers - but they have some sort of loop-hole in the system....

[Augustus]

Actually some are. They claim their power does not come from the warp.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

for the 50 millionth time, Rune Priests are psykers. change the name, the effect and methods are the same.

 

however, the Wolf Rune Priests in some cases traveled alonside the SoS and the Adeptus Custodes, meaning either they somehow hid the abilites from a group of people (the SoS) that were trained in hunting down the psykers, or they had some sort of legal loop-hole that allowed them to continue using their abilities.

 

regardless of what answer your prefer, there is NO straight answer right now in the fluff, so this is a never ending circular debate. until we have some more information on the matter, it is going to stay unresolved.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

for the 50 millionth time, Rune Priests are psykers. change the name, the effect and methods are the same.

 

however, the Wolf Rune Priests in some cases traveled alonside the SoS and the Adeptus Custodes, meaning either they somehow hid the abilites from a group of people (the SoS) that were trained in hunting down the psykers, or they had some sort of legal loop-hole that allowed them to continue using their abilities.

 

regardless of what answer your prefer, there is NO straight answer right now in the fluff, so this is a never ending circular debate. until we have some more information on the matter, it is going to stay unresolved.

 

WLK

 

They don't even have to hide that they have powers. Remember, Librarians of other legions weren't destroyed, they were returned to the line. They could have just had the Rune Priest as a special role like Wardens and not have them use their powers.

[MadDoc]

We have not a single example of the Rune Priests that went to Prospero using their abilities in front of either the Custodes or the Sisters of Silence, so to claim that they must have an exemption from the edict because the Custodes and Sisters didn't call them out for doing something we have no evidence of them even witnessing is jumping to conclusions.

 

What is more likely?

1) That the Wolves were granted an exemption when none of the other Legions were (pure speculation based on no actual evidence).

or

2) That the Wolves hid the true nature of their Rune Priests from others (an actual example of which we have them doing in FTT).

 

I know what seems more likely to me based on the evidence we actually have. But then again I'm not pushing some bias...

 

Edit -

This is completely ridiculous, and you know it is.

I'm beginning to suspect that this sadly may not be the case. I think that he might be so caught up in a little bubble of "SW's are special" that he honestly believes the Wolves were given an exemption (or not even covered by the Edict) based on nothing more than supposition/assumption (with zero actual evidence), any evidence to the contrary (which actually does exist) be damned.

 

To be honest, I'm starting to find it a little sad.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Telanicus: Very true, and I see how that can make sense.

 

@Mad Doc: we've seen a single squad of Wolves decide to have their Rune Priest hide his abilities. this isnt evidence of what the Legion as a whole is doing.

We do have evidence of agents of Malcador being exempt from the Edict (Garro audio series), and we've seen what happens when those not exempt from the Edict try and use psychic powers around the Adeptus Custodes (Deliverance Lost). As the Wolves continued to operate as normal, I cant see a figure sure as Leman Russ ignore a command from his "Father".

 

and until we've learned more, I am not going to judge the Wolves one way or another. this situation isnt black and white, regardless of how much you would like it to be.

 

WLK

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Russ the guy who challenged the Emperor, making Russ submit to his power? Russ the guy who was knocked out by his father on several occassions? The dude who would get drunk and throw the special rune spear the Emperor gifted him at local moons and then send his thanes to go and find it? Oh I could definitely see him going against the will of the All-Father. Doesnt mean Russ was a bad boy or traitorous. He was just ahead of the curve cause Dad was wrong.

 

Maybe the Wolves did have a special psyker get out of jail free card. I think I related the reasons why the Wolves are ideal to sanction a psychic force earlier in this thread. It just seems unlikely they would be singled out like that and it seems like they are using powers more often than any Legion outside of the Thousand Sons from what has been related to us as readers.

 

Still, if Loken can survive and thrive, anything is possible; even special psyker exemptions for the Wolves. Personally, I think this whole thread of discussion is going to be moot when everyone finally decides "That is the dumbest rule ever." Even now other Loyal Legions are breaking it. My big bone to pick in this thread is this pushing of the power of Fenris or something like that. Sure you got filtered water out of the tap or you drink bottled but it is still water.

[DarthMarko]

We have not a single example of the Rune Priests that went to Prospero using their abilities in front of either the Custodes or the Sisters of Silence, so to claim that they must have an exemption from the edict because the Custodes and Sisters didn't call them out for doing something we have no evidence of them even witnessing is jumping to conclusions.

 

What is more likely?

1) That the Wolves were granted an exemption when none of the other Legions were (pure speculation based on no actual evidence).

or

2) That the Wolves hid the true nature of their Rune Priests from others (an actual example of which we have them doing in FTT).

 

I know what seems more likely to me based on the evidence we actually have. But then again I'm not pushing some bias...

 

Edit -

This is completely ridiculous, and you know it is.

I'm beginning to suspect that this sadly may not be the case. I think that he might be so caught up in a little bubble of "SW's are special" that he honestly believes the Wolves were given an exemption (or not even covered by the Edict) based on nothing more than supposition/assumption (with zero actual evidence), any evidence to the contrary (which actually does exist) be damned.

 

To be honest, I'm starting to find it a little sad.

Well I'm thinking that they were iducted into a legion as battle brothers, but still retained their name due to their other choirs, btw I also didn't see rune priest calling lightning or shooting death bolts from his arse on Prospero...

So I agree with your opinion to a degree, but this is also a little speculation....

[Marshal Goderic]

So, I have read all books in question that I'm aware of and have read this whole thread, someone plz just tell me if I have this correctly.

 

To clarify/sum up,

 

1.) Edict happens, all space marine psykery is banned and (in/from the 40k universe perspective) everyone but the wolves thinks this applies to all psykers, wolves included (reference & extrapolation of BA book with BA & SW interaction that has already been quoted), wolves think they are special (whether justified or not) and it doesn't apply to them.

 

2.) It would seem that the SW do not have a Emperor given get out of psyker jail free card due to the above reference of BA and SW and the lack of reference to any SW using psyker powers in any way around the custodes and sisters. (don't think I missed anyone quoting anything like this)

 

3.) The Emperor is a scheister and keeps stuff from his peeps, even primarchs and thus may have thought/meant that SW were ok with their 'non-witchery' psyker powers but lacking any word or deed that would corroborate this from either him or his proxys leads to, at best, the Schrodinger's Psykey box where we are waiting for the new White Scars HH book.

 

(and/or the author didn't realize his exact words would be argued over like this and thus didn't pay enough attention to how he was writing it), which = it's the Emperor's fault :)

 

Have I got it as it stands or is my nutshell cracked?

 

@WLK, you said, "@Mad Doc: we've seen a single squad of Wolves decide to have their Rune Priest hide his abilities. this isnt evidence of what the Legion as a whole is doing.

We do have evidence of agents of Malcador being exempt from the Edict (Garro audio series), and we've seen what happens when those not exempt from the Edict try and use psychic powers around the Adeptus Custodes (Deliverance Lost). As the Wolves continued to operate as normal, I cant see a figure sure as Leman Russ ignore a command from his "Father".

 

and until we've learned more, I am not going to judge the Wolves one way or another. this situation isnt black and white, regardless of how much you would like it to be."

 

underline added for emphasis by me

 

Hey dude, you've been the most civil wolf on here so i'm not tryin to pick at you or anything but as the most civil voice of that faction I am very interested in hearing your logic on this. It seems to me that you are ignoring the entire legion not using any powers whilst alongside the Custodes and Sisters. That is an example of the whole Legion is doing. Granted, there is no sentance or anything that even remotely says something like '& at the battle of prospero the SW never used their powers to combat the Thousand Sons powers' So my supposition is an extrapolation of a non-event in a way and thus not hard/concrete proof of anything either but I think it would be safe to say or infer that they did not continue to operate as normal (which would be with 'rune priest support' ie psychic powers) as stated. In addition, IMO I would think that it would be mentioned if they did use powers because it would be so controversial, comming as it does almost immediately after the big psychic no-no decree from big-E.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Chaplain Chonke: Yes, Russ did all those things. He was the Alpha male of his pack. However, the Emperor proved to be his superior, and Russ then submitted to him, making him the Alpha male. From then on his loyalty was to the Emperor.

This becomes especially true when you look at the society that Russ was raised in. Loyalty to ones lord was paramount, and one’s word was the firmest bond that could be forged. This is why I find it so hard to believe that Russ would ignore the Emperor’s edict.

 

@Marshal Goderic: Your right in saying that we don’t have much evidence to support the Wolves doing things one way or another, because the main view we have of the Wolves is from “Prospero Burns”, Tra Company. As they had a suspected spy in their presence, their actions to me are questionable. Do they always act in this manner, or are they acting in this manner to intimidate or influence the suspected spy’s report? This question bothers me, and kinda why I dislike “Prospero Burns”. We don’t get the true Marine interactions with one another, what helped us see the workings of the Sons of Horus or Emperor’s Children…

But to your question, the main use of psychic powers in the Wolves were Wyrdmake on Prospero, and the Wolf Rune Priests who invaded Hawser’s mind. As Hawser’s suspected status was know to a select few on Nikea, including Custodes Valdor, it reasons to me that these select few knew of and accepted Russ’s actions and the continual use of psychic powers. In “Deliverance Lost”, we saw Custodes draw weapons on a Primarch and his Marines for attempting to disobey the Edict. I cant see them now turning a blind eye to Russ’s actions.

 

Maybe, the next time the focus swings back to the Wolves, we’ll see a more balanced and better explained reason of what the heck is happening.

[daveNYC]

Maybe, the next time the focus swings back to the Wolves, we’ll see a more balanced and better explained reason of what the heck is happening.

 

Hopefully there won't be a SW novel for quite a while. They've already played their major part in the Heresy. Unless there is a major retcon, the only thing left for them to do is take the slow boat to Terra.

They already shoehorned some Wolves into FTT, and it read like the awkward fanservice that it was. Last things we need is every Traitor focused novel having the Alpha Legion running a con and every Loyalist novel having some Space Wolves hanging in the background trying to look badass.

The only real story I can see coming out of that chapter is Russ' reaction when he realizes that Horus really was a traitor, and I would much rather read about the Iron Hands dealing with the death of their Primarch or Vulkan dealing with his losses and starting to write his book. I understand that they are popular with both the audience and the writers, but there are a lot of other stories to tell in the HH.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Maybe, the next time the focus swings back to the Wolves, we’ll see a more balanced and better explained reason of what the heck is happening.

 

Hopefully there won't be a SW novel for quite a while. They've already played their major part in the Heresy. Unless there is a major retcon, the only thing left for them to do is take the slow boat to Terra.

They already shoehorned some Wolves into FTT, and it read like the awkward fanservice that it was. Last things we need is every Traitor focused novel having the Alpha Legion running a con and every Loyalist novel having some Space Wolves hanging in the background trying to look badass.

The only real story I can see coming out of that chapter is Russ' reaction when he realizes that Horus really was a traitor, and I would much rather read about the Iron Hands dealing with the death of their Primarch or Vulkan dealing with his losses and starting to write his book. I understand that they are popular with both the audience and the writers, but there are a lot of other stories to tell in the HH.

 

Well the Heresy is going to last for 7 years, with alot more action from everybody. We're going to learn alot more of what the Legion's were up to during this time period.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

Maybe, the next time the focus swings back to the Wolves, we’ll see a more balanced and better explained reason of what the heck is happening.

 

Hopefully there won't be a SW novel for quite a while. They've already played their major part in the Heresy. Unless there is a major retcon, the only thing left for them to do is take the slow boat to Terra.

They already shoehorned some Wolves into FTT, and it read like the awkward fanservice that it was. Last things we need is every Traitor focused novel having the Alpha Legion running a con and every Loyalist novel having some Space Wolves hanging in the background trying to look badass.

The only real story I can see coming out of that chapter is Russ' reaction when he realizes that Horus really was a traitor, and I would much rather read about the Iron Hands dealing with the death of their Primarch or Vulkan dealing with his losses and starting to write his book. I understand that they are popular with both the audience and the writers, but there are a lot of other stories to tell in the HH.

 

Well the Heresy is going to last for 7 years, with alot more action from everybody. We're going to learn alot more of what the Legion's were up to during this time period.

 

WLK

 

Like Russ's legendary 7 year duel with the Lion ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Maybe, the next time the focus swings back to the Wolves, we’ll see a more balanced and better explained reason of what the heck is happening.

 

Hopefully there won't be a SW novel for quite a while. They've already played their major part in the Heresy. Unless there is a major retcon, the only thing left for them to do is take the slow boat to Terra.

They already shoehorned some Wolves into FTT, and it read like the awkward fanservice that it was. Last things we need is every Traitor focused novel having the Alpha Legion running a con and every Loyalist novel having some Space Wolves hanging in the background trying to look badass.

The only real story I can see coming out of that chapter is Russ' reaction when he realizes that Horus really was a traitor, and I would much rather read about the Iron Hands dealing with the death of their Primarch or Vulkan dealing with his losses and starting to write his book. I understand that they are popular with both the audience and the writers, but there are a lot of other stories to tell in the HH.

 

Well the Heresy is going to last for 7 years, with alot more action from everybody. We're going to learn alot more of what the Legion's were up to during this time period.

 

WLK

 

Like Russ's legendary 7 year duel with the Lion ;)

 

I'm looking forward to Guilliman's double thumb war vs Lorgar and Angron for Ultramar...

 

WLK