When Did librarians come back?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Brother Ramses: trust me, it sucks, but as the retconned story stands we Wolves are guilty of breaking the Edict of Nikea.

 

Unless some future story comes out granting us permission to do so of course. (which would make sense to me, as we use psychic powers around Custodians with no repercussions, so something has to be said about that)

 

WLK

[Grimtooth]

And I will continue to stand by the edict that states Librarians and the Librarius program is specifically what the Emperor banned.

 

To all the people that keep saying that rune priests are just librarians with a different name you are wrong, wrong, 100%. Librarians are specifically a creation of the Librarius program, primarily founded by Magnus and instructed by members of his Legion, the Thousand Sons. At no time EVER did the Space Wolves have a Librarius within their Legion. At no time were the rune priests of the VI Legion party to the Librarian program.

 

For those of you that keep bringing up Stormseers of the White Scars. The White Scars opened their Legions doors to Magnus and his Librarius program. The "Stormseers" of the White Scars while originally more like the rune priests of the SW, they ended up being educated by the very same Librarius program under Magnus and his Thousand Sons. The White Scar librarian that steps forward to testify at the council even goes so far as to practically echo Magnus and the Thousand Sons attitude about psychic powers.

 

Until something new is revealed, I will continue to stand by my opinion that the rune priests of the SW were not bound by the edict as the entire council and subsequent edict was focused specifically on Magnus and the Thousand Sons and by extension the Librarius program and Librarians.

[Kol Saresk]

Ramses, do the Rune Priests use psychic powers, yes or no?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

alright, both sides are entrenched in their opinions, so lets just move on then.

 

WLK

[MadDoc]

alright, both sides are entrenched in their opinions, so lets just move on then.

 

WLK

Its good to see that there is at least one Wolf thats being sensible, and also not letting army/faction bias blinker him.

[Kol Saresk]

On topic, the Edict banning the use of psychic powers within the Astartes has yet to be formally removed. Four Legions and part of a Legion are formally on record as saying screw it in one form or another, whether they don't think it applies to them(Space Wolves), screw it(Thousand Sons), think they know better as long as they maintain strict control(Alpha Legion), actively work to counter it(Word Bearers) or never heard it(Dark Angels on Caliban). Only part of one Legion has actively rescinded the Edict in the case of all of its psykers and that is the contingent of Dark Angels that are traveling with the Lion. Also, there is on record one Raven Guard Librarian only using his power once since the Edict when he unlocked the Gene Vault, but refused to use it afterwards. I would like to point out that a Night Lords vessel did manage to pursue the Lion through the warp and was surrounded with warp fragments when it translated into realspace. Unsure if a Librarian was used or not, but since the Night Lords crew was able to hear everything said on the bridge of the Invincible Reason, it is entirely possible. However, this does seem to be a rather isolated incident at the moment since it is the only time other than Sevatar's use that a Heresy-era Night Lord used psychic powers. Although I will also point out that even Sevatar was reprimanded by the Night Haunter for using his powers. Granted, it isn't the kind of punishment we would come to expect from one such as the Night Haunter, but then again, a Primarch breaking his word to his own First Captain could be considered a dire thing.

 

Currently, there is no official date or story that has an Imperium-wide lifting of the ban oon psychic Astartes.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

On topic, the Edict banning the use of psychic powers within the Astartes has yet to be formally removed. Four Legions and part of a Legion are formally on record as saying screw it in one form or another, whether they don't think it applies to them(Space Wolves), screw it(Thousand Sons), think they know better as long as they maintain strict control(Alpha Legion), actively work to counter it(Word Bearers) or never heard it(Dark Angels on Caliban). Only part of one Legion has actively rescinded the Edict in the case of all of its psykers and that is the contingent of Dark Angels that are traveling with the Lion. Also, there is on record one Raven Guard Librarian only using his power once since the Edict when he unlocked the Gene Vault, but refused to use it afterwards. I would like to point out that a Night Lords vessel did manage to pursue the Lion through the warp and was surrounded with warp fragments when it translated into realspace. Unsure if a Librarian was used or not, but since the Night Lords crew was able to hear everything said on the bridge of the Invincible Reason, it is entirely possible. However, this does seem to be a rather isolated incident at the moment since it is the only time other than Sevatar's use that a Heresy-era Night Lord used psychic powers. Although I will also point out that even Sevatar was reprimanded by the Night Haunter for using his powers. Granted, it isn't the kind of punishment we would come to expect from one such as the Night Haunter, but then again, a Primarch breaking his word to his own First Captain could be considered a dire thing.

 

Currently, there is no official date or story that has an Imperium-wide lifting of the ban oon psychic Astartes.

 

I think this may be more due to GW avoiding exploring the HH era fluff for years than any real avoidance of the Librarian problem.

 

I think the Primarch, combined with the H.L.o.T., thought that any weapon used to fight back thr traitors were a worthwhile weapon. Especially when combined Guilliman's influence post-Heresy, and his pragmatic nature of warfare. (It probably didnt help that Russ ignored (or was given a pass on) the Edict, and the remaining Primarchs have seen first hand the dangers of ignoring the Warp-touched).

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

That is what I think will eventually happen down the line as well.

[ZAChos]

And I will continue to stand by the edict that states Librarians and the Librarius program is specifically what the Emperor banned.

 

To all the people that keep saying that rune priests are just librarians with a different name you are wrong, wrong, 100%. Librarians are specifically a creation of the Librarius program, primarily founded by Magnus and instructed by members of his Legion, the Thousand Sons. At no time EVER did the Space Wolves have a Librarius within their Legion. At no time were the rune priests of the VI Legion party to the Librarian program.

 

For those of you that keep bringing up Stormseers of the White Scars. The White Scars opened their Legions doors to Magnus and his Librarius program. The "Stormseers" of the White Scars while originally more like the rune priests of the SW, they ended up being educated by the very same Librarius program under Magnus and his Thousand Sons. The White Scar librarian that steps forward to testify at the council even goes so far as to practically echo Magnus and the Thousand Sons attitude about psychic powers.

 

Until something new is revealed, I will continue to stand by my opinion that the rune priests of the SW were not bound by the edict as the entire council and subsequent edict was focused specifically on Magnus and the Thousand Sons and by extension the Librarius program and Librarians.

 

This is a very interesting way of looking at it, and would make perfect sense as to why the emperor should choose the spacewolves as his tool in executing the TS. If they are the only legion with non-TS-schooled psykers, then they are the only ones that can be 100% trusted to go against them. Of course, they'd need the help of the sisters and custodes, but there is no chance of split loyalty psykers within their ranks.

 

As for people shouting down each other about this. Chill out. Unlike real life, 40K is what you make of it. if you choose to have Russ as a hypocrite in your interpretation, then that's fine. If I want there to be an actual reason for keeping his psykers then I'm allowed. The writers of the Horus Heresy books are telling the stories from the perspective of the people involved: Dan Abnett mentioned in a QA that they actually put bits in that contradict in order to make this point. I like the idea that it's not just a Black and White thing. Maybe Rune priests aren't quite the same. Maybe Russ misunderstands the edict. Maybe the Rune priests are forbidden from using their powers actively, but we all know that not everyone can help it (Ultramarine in Garro refuses to use powers, but still gets premonitions). I'm sure given 20 minutes I could come up with a load more ideas other than "Russ is a Hypocrite and anyone elses reading of the situation is wrong!"

[Anaraion]

This is a very interesting way of looking at it, and would make perfect sense as to why the emperor should choose the spacewolves as his tool in executing the TS. If they are the only legion with non-TS-schooled psykers, then they are the only ones that can be 100% trusted to go against them. Of course, they'd need the help of the sisters and custodes, but there is no chance of split loyalty psykers within their ranks.

 

As for people shouting down each other about this. Chill out. Unlike real life, 40K is what you make of it. if you choose to have Russ as a hypocrite in your interpretation, then that's fine. If I want there to be an actual reason for keeping his psykers then I'm allowed. The writers of the Horus Heresy books are telling the stories from the perspective of the people involved: Dan Abnett mentioned in a QA that they actually put bits in that contradict in order to make this point. I like the idea that it's not just a Black and White thing. Maybe Rune priests aren't quite the same. Maybe Russ misunderstands the edict. Maybe the Rune priests are forbidden from using their powers actively, but we all know that not everyone can help it (Ultramarine in Garro refuses to use powers, but still gets premonitions). I'm sure given 20 minutes I could come up with a load more ideas other than "Russ is a Hypocrite and anyone elses reading of the situation is wrong!"

 

There is much merit in what you say. Clearly as I pointed out certain people become fixated on their fluff and hold it above all others. Kinda funny seeing people here allocate who is loyal who is not, who is a hypocrite and who is not... based on their interpretation of fluff :lol:!!

 

I certainly do not know what happened here with the Edict of Nikea to get all convoluted to this mess (and the new fluff is just so vexing to me on so many levels), but regardless of which fluff you hold dear, it is interesting that Custodes and Sisters are fighting next to our Rune Priests against the sorcerous 1000 Sons... :tu:.

 

I mean if the Custodes and Sisters choose to ally with the Rout who are we to call the Vlka Fenryka heretics... :lol:?

[Kol Saresk]

'I see now that I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should never have permitted the them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will thst no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All of its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ psychic powers.'

 

All I know is this, the Edict of Nikea banned all psychic powers in the retcon.

 

And since there were Custodes who were tricked by the Word Bearers into thinking they were loyal until after Istvaan V.....

 

Not to mention there were some Sisters who took care of a certain dying Death Guard long enough for him to become a daemon prince not very far away from Terra.....

 

I think I see a pattern of both groups becoming unwitting allies and then victims of daemons.....

 

Either way, the Edict of Nikea banned all psychic powers according to the wording to A Thousand Sons. Whether or not that means anyone who disobeyed this Edict is a hypocrite, seems to differ depending on what side of the fence you are on and since both sides believe the other to be wrong because both sides are interpreting the fluff differently, it seems a moot argument.

 

On topic, I still stand by the fact that at the moment, there are only five Legions who have actively gone against the Edict and have told their psykers they are allowed to use their powers. Three of those Legions are Traitors in their entirety. Those are the Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons and Word Bearers. The Space Wolves are the only fully Loyalist Legion that uses psychic powers. The Dark Angels are also another Legion but at the moment are split between the Loyalist(the Lion and Company) and the Traitor(the Lutherans) camps. The Space Wolves believe that the Edict banning psychic powers does not apply to them. The Thousand Sons said they would prove why it is wrong. The Alpha Legion said "Screw it, I can use this as a weapon." The Word Bearers said "Screw it" as well because they are the original Traitors and used the Chapter of the Void, which is 700 psykers according to Battle for the Abyss, to create and test experimental warp weaponry. The Dark Angels on Caliban seemed to have never heard of the Edict as both Librarians never gave up their ranks and continued to practice using their psychic powers. Also, Cypher was teaching Luther old sorcery that seems to have originated on Caliban since he was using some of the Order's older books. The Dark Angels with the Lion started using their psychic powers again when he ordered them to do so. There are still two very isolated events of uses of psychic powers outside of these five Legions at this time. At least that I am aware of. That is the Raven Guard in Deliverance Lost and Sevatar in Prince of Crows. Again, the Night Lords vessel in The Lion may also have had a psyker on board, but that is unconfirmed and will most likely remain that way.

 

So right now, the final count is that only one Legion has actively rescinded the Edict. More appropriately, only one Primarch has rescinded it as part of his Legion has never obeyed the Edict. One Legion is thinking about it(the Ultramarines). Four other Legions have ignored the Edict for one reason or another, whether it be they believed it didn't apply to them because of semantics, they didn't care, they thought they could prove it wrong or they thought they new better. Again, simply saying that Librarians are the only psykers to have been disbanded is semantics. That is the same as saying the Stormseers were okay to as nothing says that the Stormseers are Librarians, only psykers. As pointed out in the Retcon in A Thousand Sons, the Retcon Edict of Nikea targets the use of psychic powers, not psyker Astartes who are called Librarians and are a part of a Librarius. Since the Imperium itself has not rescinded the Edict, any Astartes who uses psychic powers contrary to the Edict of Nikea, is violating the Edict. Only one Primarch has rescinded the order but since he is not the Imperium and does not have authority higher than the Emperor's, well glean from that what you will.

 

Also, it was pointed out that Dan Abnett threw in contradicting elements. Hypocrisy is when one contradicts his spoken word by doing contrary actions. Just saying.

 

This is the current state of the fluff at this moment in time. Until new fluff arrives that states just exactly what the Emperor meant by "Never again employ psychic powers", it is logical to infer that it is a blanket judgement.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I will say that after "Fear to Tread", i believe Sanguinius and his Blood Angels (especially after the last chapter reveal) will soon reinsert the Librarians into their ranks again.

 

and from what I've heard of Dorn (which means hearsay and i havent read it myself), he "imprisonment" of his psykers is more like is is holding them in reserve for when Horus reaches Terra. I do believe the older fluff mentions the valiant actions of the Imperial Fist Librarians on the walls of Terra.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

The Ultramarines probably aren't that far behind as well since they're likely to be facing a daemon excursion on every front if Calth is even a taste of what will happen in the rest of Ultramar.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Ultramarines probably aren't that far behind as well since they're likely to be facing a daemon excursion on every front if Calth is even a taste of what will happen in the rest of Ultramar.

 

i think Kor Phaeron's actions to Guilliman will have drastically any hesitation Guilliman may have had in holding back his Librarians.

 

I wonder what Guilliman may have penned regarding this in his "Imperium Secundus"...

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

Probably what is now the "modern" Librarius program, with strict rituals of self-control and probably had a side program that eventually resulted in the psychic hood that Librarians wear as well as the fact that they must rely on their own power and never use anything that amounts to sorcery. An echo of the original Edict.

[jeremy1391]

The Ultramarines probably aren't that far behind as well since they're likely to be facing a daemon excursion on every front if Calth is even a taste of what will happen in the rest of Ultramar.

 

i think Kor Phaeron's actions to Guilliman will have drastically any hesitation Guilliman may have had in holding back his Librarians.

 

I wonder what Guilliman may have penned regarding this in his "Imperium Secundus"...

 

WLK

 

The Garro story where Rubio is introduced Rubio uses his psychic powers twice once on the DL and once overtly. This is during the battle of Calth.

 

 

Also can we please stop the for/against space wolves rune priests being as it has no bearing on the Original topic, take it to PM please.

[Jehoel]

Well, in Fear to Tread, the psychic hood is mentioned as having been put aside due to the Edict. The Librarians that help Sanguinius recover from his "coma" are mentioned as taking a great risk by not having their psychic hoods. And since only one of about 7 survives the effort, I guess it was a pretty big risk.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

The Garro story where Rubio is introduced Rubio uses his psychic powers twice once on the DL and once overtly. This is during the battle of Calth.

 

Also can we please stop the for/against space wolves rune priests being as it has no bearing on the Original topic, take it to PM please.

 

This, Just finished listening to the audiobook, Oath of Moment.

 

Rubio is furious as he believes Garro forced him into using his powers to save his squad from Word Bearers on Calth, his squad then turn their back on him for disobeying the edict, forcing him to leave with Garro.

 

Garro's orders came from Malcador himself giving permission to use whatever force is necessary to achieve his ends, and specifically wanted Garro to recruit Rubio

[ZAChos]

since both sides believe the other to be wrong because both sides are interpreting the fluff differently, it seems a moot argument.

 

The point I was trying to make was not a "I'm right, you are wrong", but that it's wrong to say there is only one interpretation of fluff. We have many examples of fluff stating that the Emperor is Loving and Good, and guides his sons with caring hand. How many of us truly believe that?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

alright, both sides are entrenched in their opinions, so lets just move on then.

 

WLK

Its good to see that there is at least one Wolf thats being sensible, and also not letting army/faction bias blinker him.

 

He's actually a Raven in Wolf's clothing *shrugs*

:P

 

+++

 

I remember, quite clearly, that A D-B mentioned in passing, here on the B&C, that the SW were hypocrites regarding the Librarian/Rune priest thing. And no, I don't have a link for it. Sorry :(

 

Now would the man be happy to be asked and quoted on that? Idk. Remember Aaron's disclaimer in his sig - that could just be his not-as-a-BL-author hat on when he wrote that. And his pov at that moment in time, etc.

 

But I'd assumed that this was said with the weight of knowledge that not only we fans have but also as a member of the Inner Circle.

 

It would be lovely if we could get an official statement on the Librarian/Rune priest from the BL crew *cough*

 

When you start fixing up an old car, and think "hey, let's spruce up the engine" you realise it has flow-on effects as the old gearbox and differential cannot hack it. I think some of the fluff not-retcons ;) ;) have left a few things untied as well as tying up some previously untied things.

 

Confused by my mixed metaphors? Don't use string to permanently repair your car :tu:

[KarkassBC]

Also, it was pointed out that Dan Abnett threw in contradicting elements. Hypocrisy is when one contradicts his spoken word by doing contrary actions. Just saying.

 

To describe vague statement or leave some hint is the way in a film to produce a sequel.

 

I think it's correct for authors to not describe everything in their books, leaving the rest to the ideas of the readers. A big part of the stories came from this.

 

 

About the main topic we are still in the middle of two possible answers.

 

First the Emperor during the Siege of Terra or Guilliman during the creation of the Space Marine Chapters.

 

...Maybe we will found that Guilliman wrote the new line of the Codex before attacking Alpharius on Eskrador... maybe he used his psykers to conceal his sudden movement, and he wrote the amendment to allow their use...

 

...or it could be a clever Alpha Legion complex project for the final triumph in the 10 thousand year war between Chaos and the Emperor...

[Baluc]

If I'm incorrect forgive me but don't the TS captains dicuss early on in A Thusand Sons, that the "instructor" they sent to set up the librarium program with the wolves was basically made an unwelcome guest and basically ignored the whole time. Would this not imply the Wolves were not part of the librarium program?

[Kol Saresk]

Yes. No one's saying they're not. The problem is the part of the Edict that says "any psychic powers". Using semantics to say that since the Rune Priests are not part of A Librarian program set up by Magnus exempts them from being banned to use psychic powers is just that, semantics. You might be able to play with the wording of just what does the Emperor mean by Librarius the same way some Americans try to justify the right to bear arms means they are allowed to own heavy caliber machinguns. However, the fluff becomes very crystal clear when it says "Never again employ any psychic powers."

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

He wasn't sent as an instructor, he was sent there to learn from the wolves, plus let them no more about the thousand sons, Magnus made his captains/high officers spend time in the other legions to learn from them/help establish links, and the wolves were just jerks to him. Personally I don't see why more of the primarchs or the emperor didn't do/encourage this, a lot of problems would have been avoided if members from each legion spent time with/in the others.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

These are Stories that are 10000 years old and I find the rightiousness of some opinions hilarious.

Now 40 000 years later only some of the characters of the chaos legions and (you are gonna hate this) the Space Wolves even remember the Council of Nikea (read Björn). So if a Space Wolf were to hear some guilt ridden Dark Angel talk about the Wolves being hypocrits, the wolf could only laugh & start a brawl. After which the 2 of them could down some ice cold beers and concentrate their energies on the enemies of mankind. Or wait the Dark Angels arnt allowed beer ...... such a shame.

Let the stories be stories because thats all they ever are.

 

Its funny now that the HH is getting so much attention I am looking foward to good stories set in the current (40K) time. There is a lot more myth and legend. See A.D.B`s Story the Throne of Lies.