When Did librarians come back?

[Billuriye]

Yes. No one's saying they're not. The problem is the part of the Edict that says "any psychic powers". Using semantics to say that since the Rune Priests are not part of A Librarian program set up by Magnus exempts them from being banned to use psychic powers is just that, semantics. You might be able to play with the wording of just what does the Emperor mean by Librarius the same way some Americans try to justify the right to bear arms means they are allowed to own heavy caliber machinguns. However, the fluff becomes very crystal clear when it says "Never again employ any psychic powers."

 

Indeed. SW are obviously hypocrites in this. I don't see why some people are troubled by this. Do you truly want a Mary Sue, anti-Astartes, uncorruptible rune magick wielding special snowflakes as your legion?

[KarkassBC]

These are Stories that are 10000 years old and I find the rightiousness of some opinions hilarious.

Now 40 000 years later only some of the characters of the chaos legions and (you are gonna hate this) the Space Wolves even remember the Council of Nikea (read Björn). So if a Space Wolf were to hear some guilt ridden Dark Angel talk about the Wolves being hypocrits, the wolf could only laugh & start a brawl. After which the 2 of them could down some ice cold beers and concentrate their energies on the enemies of mankind. Or wait the Dark Angels arnt allowed beer ...... such a shame.

Let the stories be stories because thats all they ever are.

 

Its funny now that the HH is getting so much attention I am looking foward to good stories set in the current (40K) time. There is a lot more myth and legend. See A.D.B`s Story the Throne of Lies.

 

I don't think the fight will end in a cold beer...

Russ one day during the Crusade attacked Lion El Jonson for having killed the rebel's leader before him. After that many honor battles were fought between marines of the two Legions with many ending in deaths.

 

The topic is about when the Librarian come back and not why... the Ruling of Nikae was an error... Guilliman words... "we were tricked to throw away the weapons needed against Chaos"... (or similar... I don't have with me the copy of KNF)

[Anaraion]

The part I do not get is the Custodes and Sisters running around with us... ?

 

Anyone with more knowledge on their traditions and customs care to explain to me why they would be happily working with the Rout if we were in direct violation of a brand new Imperial Creed as mandated by the Emperor himself... ?

 

I mean what we are in violation of is why we are on Prospero in the first place right?

 

Thanks in advance... /bow.

[Grimtooth]

He wasn't sent as an instructor, he was sent there to learn from the wolves, plus let them no more about the thousand sons, Magnus made his captains/high officers spend time in the other legions to learn from them/help establish links, and the wolves were just jerks to him. Personally I don't see why more of the primarchs or the emperor didn't do/encourage this, a lot of problems would have been avoided if members from each legion spent time with/in the others.

 

Do you mean like Word Bearers hanging out with the Luna Wolves and introducing Warrior Lodges? Great idea.....oh, wait..... :tu:

[ZAChos]

He wasn't sent as an instructor, he was sent there to learn from the wolves, plus let them no more about the thousand sons, Magnus made his captains/high officers spend time in the other legions to learn from them/help establish links, and the wolves were just jerks to him. Personally I don't see why more of the primarchs or the emperor didn't do/encourage this, a lot of problems would have been avoided if members from each legion spent time with/in the others.

 

Do you mean like Word Bearers hanging out with the Luna Wolves and introducing Warrior Lodges? Great idea.....oh, wait..... ^_^

 

And the way that Guilliman sent all of his tactics writings to the Word Bearers.

[KarkassBC]

He wasn't sent as an instructor, he was sent there to learn from the wolves, plus let them no more about the thousand sons, Magnus made his captains/high officers spend time in the other legions to learn from them/help establish links, and the wolves were just jerks to him. Personally I don't see why more of the primarchs or the emperor didn't do/encourage this, a lot of problems would have been avoided if members from each legion spent time with/in the others.

 

Do you mean like Word Bearers hanging out with the Luna Wolves and introducing Warrior Lodges? Great idea.....oh, wait..... ;)

 

I think it still be a greater idea than sending the most hated Legion against them, destroy the best city ever built and humiliated their Primarch in front of everything else...

[Grimtooth]

He wasn't sent as an instructor, he was sent there to learn from the wolves, plus let them no more about the thousand sons, Magnus made his captains/high officers spend time in the other legions to learn from them/help establish links, and the wolves were just jerks to him. Personally I don't see why more of the primarchs or the emperor didn't do/encourage this, a lot of problems would have been avoided if members from each legion spent time with/in the others.

 

Do you mean like Word Bearers hanging out with the Luna Wolves and introducing Warrior Lodges? Great idea.....oh, wait..... ;)

 

I think it still be a greater idea than sending the most hated Legion against them, destroy the best city ever built and humiliated their Primarch in front of everything else...

 

Remind me again who twisted Magnus' arm again to use the sorcery he did to shatter the protective wards of the Emperor's palace and destroy the webway?

 

And just for the record, Othere did spend time with the Thousand Sons, primarily with Ahiriman, which was long enough for him to determine they had delved to deep into sorcery.

[Kol Saresk]

Who was the Executioner that was tricked into killing his brother that he was only supposed to apprehend? Oh wait, NO Primarch is dumb enough to get tricked.

 

Also, Anarion, who did the Custodes let walk into and out of the Eye? I think his name was Lorgar? Imagine how one action could have changed the course of the Heresy, if only Custodes had brains.

 

And IIRC there was a certain injured Death Guard who was on his death bed. What did the Sisters do? They kept him alive long enough for him to become the daemon prince, the Lord of Flies.

 

So if we're done with the mudslinging and getting past the fact that Othere Wyrdmaker walked the warp hand-in-hand with Arhiman, the reality is that the Edict of Nikea forbade all Astartes from using Psychic Powers. That is a fact. There is no ifs, ands or buts. Astartes were no longer allowed to use psychic powers after the Edict. Last I heard, Space Wolves are still Astartes. As such, that means they had a big fat no-no slapped on them as well. Everything Arhiman could do, Othere could do. The only differences between the two was that Arhiman had a familiar. They both fought each other in a psychic duel in their astral bodies amidst the currents of the warp. But somehow Othere is still not a psyker.

[KarkassBC]

@Brother Ramses

Really I don't defend Magnus a bit.

 

1. He killed a thousand of neophites for trying to save an already lost Horus

 

2. He sent a message to the Emperor in an incomprensible way... send an Astropahtic message to every possible psy-beacon could be a better solution

 

3. He arrived after Istvaan III

 

4. When he found a psy-wall around the Emperor Palace he used a lot of force to enter inside...

 

 

After he decided to remain loyal to the powers that conspired against him... he knows that Horus has changed Russ orders and he sided with him... and the Chaos powers promised to him to stop the flesh curse and the curse reappeared... sincerely my final actions would be to arrive to the inner circle Traitors

council on Horus flagship and unleashed a psy blast charge to the Warp engines, destroying everything...

 

For the second point Othere Wyrdmake spoke only about the Thousand Sons... he said they are dangerous sorcerers or worse... but the final decision was against the Librarian not the Thousand Sons... again, he gave only descriptions of the use of psychic powers in the compliance of one world

 

In the same book ..."Librarians had first been introduced to the Legions when Magnus, Sanguinius and Jaghatai Khan had proposed a regime of psychic training and development that went hand in hand with the already rigorous creation process of an Astartes warrior...".

 

No one has seen others making the same sorcerous actions? Probably because a lot "many primarchs came to see the usefulness of Librarians, and allowed warriorscholars from the Thousand Sons to form Librarius departments within their ranks...".

 

Mortarion when he came to give his witness he said "...No Librarians sully the ranks of the Death Guard, and nor will they while I draw breath..."

 

So even him don't know what they really do... he only saw them from the outside and spoke against the TS after hearing from Russ and Lorgar the description of a compliance of a rebel world...

[yhta]

@Brother Ramses

Really I don't defend Magnus a bit.

 

1. He killed a thousand of neophites for trying to save an already lost Horus

 

2. He sent a message to the Emperor in an incomprensible way... send an Astropahtic message to every possible psy-beacon could be a better solution

 

3. He arrived after Istvaan III

 

4. When he found a psy-wall around the Emperor Palace he used a lot of force to enter inside...

 

alredy lost is saying to much. horus hadn`t made his choice yet and he could be safe. but in the end it was horus who decided to throw everything he know to side with the chaos gods

 

the astrophatic is no the internet. you can used but i could take to much the message to the get the emperor and the fact that he use sorcery to know about horus with only have the same result

 

and? what is the point here?

 

he dosen`t know about the webway project(the fact that noboy knows is a point in horus betrayal) and he thinks that show the meesage to his father is more important.

 

in the end magnus don`t really have to much choice in the matter. by the end is a pawn of the dark gods and he can`t do anything about it. the only thing left is what it thinks about horus and the little changes of order in russ and prospero

[Anaraion]

So if we're done with the mudslinging...

 

You might try practicing what you preach mate...

 

I asked a simple question because I truly do not understand.

 

I really believe they right royally messed up the fluff and am looking at some major hypocritical actions by major players here and instead of some enlightenment I get some snarky answers. So back to the simple question. We are on Prospero to get rid of Psykers and yet we are using psykers and allied with the Cutodes and Sisters.

 

It all works if we use the original fluff but with the new fluff... How does that all fit?

 

Like I said I do not understand.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

It's something we on the Thousand sons subforum have discussed, and agreed our Primarch was an idiot. A far better way would have been to either take the legion to Terra and deliver his warning himself, (interestingly, Know no Fear seems to restore the timeline of the warning arriving before Isstvann) or even if he still did his stupid method, have then packed up most/all the legion, told the people and any forces he left on Prospero to surrender to any imperial force that came, and taken the legion to terra and presented himself for punishment.

Almost anything would have been better then what the Crimson King did.

[KarkassBC]

Or arriving on Istvaan V and hitting at the back the Traitors ships allowing a larger part of Loyalist forces to escape. Maybe moving out from Prospero followed by the Space Wolves fleet in pursuit...

 

It could be a great "free for all" battle... at least a very chaotic clash.

 

 

Magnus went on doomed thought and in that way his mind was completely broken...

 

 

At the same I can say the description and thought of Leman Russ in Prospero Burn showed another first example of supehuman stupidity (remember, even Kasper Hawser spoke in defence of the warning from Magnus as true)

[Kol Saresk]

@Anarion: In that ase I apologize, I thought you were being cheeky. The reality is, no one knows. If it was the old fluff when just sorcery was disbanded, yeah there would be no problem. But like Dan Abnett said, he wanted to throw in contradictions. Such as the Edict forbidding all psykers from using their inherent powers instead of a specific group of psykers using something other than their inherent powers.

 

As the fluff stands right now, both the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves are guilty of breaking the ban on psychic powers. As to why the Custodes and Sisters were marching with them, I guess since this was a mission to detain a Primarch, the Custodes were there to represent the Emperor and the Sisters were there to represent the interests of the HLoT. And assuming they found out about the Rune Priests still keeping up practices, they may have just went the route of "the lesser evil" since it wasn't Russ who destroyed practically every single psychic barrier that existed as well as causing damage to the Golden Throne.

 

Also, my "mudslinging" comment wasn't about us the people specifically, but more about the fact that this went from when Astartes Psykers were officially reinstated to what exactly did the Edict disband to why Thousand Sons are evil. And it's been said that there multiple interpretations of the fluff. Normally, I'd agree. But as soon as the Edict said "Never again employ any psychic powers", it sort of became set in stone. If something new arises that counters this, that bridge will get crossed when it's reached. If a new piece of fluff comes out saying that the Emperor gave them special permission to use their psykers, same response. If it will ever happen, I do not know.

[TheFacelessMan]

I think some people are projecting current 40k Wolves on the HH ones.

 

The only use of psyker ability after Nikea in Prospero Burns was the Rune Priests working with Hawser to unlock his memory. Even during the attack on Prospero in A Thousand Sons, the psyker Rune Priests weren't using their powers overtly. In fact the only mention of a Rune Priest using any sort of power at all on Prospero was Wyrdmake looking for Ahriman. And I could make a case that neither uses are really breaking the Edict of Nikea in that both could be construed as non-psyker abilities.

 

That being said not once in the HH books have we seen overt use of psyker abilities from the Wolves on the battlefield. Wyrdmake saving Ahriman is the only substantive example, and that wasn't even corporeal.

[KarkassBC]

As the fluff stands right now, both the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves are guilty of breaking the ban on psychic powers. As to why the Custodes and Sisters were marching with them, I guess since this was a mission to detain a Primarch, the Custodes were there to represent the Emperor and the Sisters were there to represent the interests of the HLoT. And assuming they found out about the Rune Priests still keeping up practices, they may have just went the route of "the lesser evil" since it wasn't Russ who destroyed practically every single psychic barrier that existed as well as causing damage to the Golden Throne.

 

I don't think the Emperor gave a special onetime pardon to the Space Wolves for the operation on Prospero.

 

When Othere Wyrdmake (I always like his name "Creator of Fate" going against the TS, puppets of the Lord of Change and Twister of Fate...) fought against Ahriman he said ...“I am nothing like you,” he snarled. “My power comes from the natural cycle of birth and death of Fenris. I am a Son of the Storm. I am nothing like you.”... he didn't say "Hey Ahriman, I'm authorized from the BigE to battle against you in the Ether with my psychic powers"...

 

Of course, maybe he didn't know that the Emperor gave the authorization to Russ ..."Go Russ, your psykers are allowed to do everything in front of my Custodes to destroy the Thousand Sons and help Horus to split my Empire in a half and put me in a Golden Throne in a corpse-like existence"...

[TheFacelessMan]

As the fluff stands right now, both the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves are guilty of breaking the ban on psychic powers. As to why the Custodes and Sisters were marching with them, I guess since this was a mission to detain a Primarch, the Custodes were there to represent the Emperor and the Sisters were there to represent the interests of the HLoT. And assuming they found out about the Rune Priests still keeping up practices, they may have just went the route of "the lesser evil" since it wasn't Russ who destroyed practically every single psychic barrier that existed as well as causing damage to the Golden Throne.

 

I don't think the Emperor gave a special onetime pardon to the Space Wolves for the operation on Prospero.

 

When Othere Wyrdmake (I always like his name "Creator of Fate" going against the TS, puppets of the Lord of Change and Twister of Fate...) fought against Ahriman he said ...“I am nothing like you,” he snarled. “My power comes from the natural cycle of birth and death of Fenris. I am a Son of the Storm. I am nothing like you.”... he didn't say "Hey Ahriman, I'm authorized from the BigE to battle against you in the Ether with my psychic powers"...

 

Of course, maybe he didn't know that the Emperor gave the authorization to Russ ..."Go Russ, your psykers are allowed to do everything in front of my Custodes to destroy the Thousand Sons and help Horus to split my Empire in a half and put me in a Golden Throne in a corpse-like existence"...

 

I had an interesting thought about that the other day. The Wolves always say they draw their power from Fenris. So what if that statement is true? We know there haven't been any successful foundings using Wolf gene-seed for 10,000 years. So what if this has to do with Fenris itself? What if Fenris is actually some stabilizing force in the warp? It's established that there are "good" or at least neutral forces in the warp, it's just that the Chaos Gods overshadow them. So why couldn't Fenris actually be a focus of birth, death, and nature in the warp? In doing so it makes a connection with the Wolves that mellows their feral nature, and lets them tap into that wellspring.

 

What if that's the reason the Emperor didn't make a big deal about the Rune Priests sticking around. Or even better, told Russ to keep them allowing Russ his hypocrisy.

[Kol Saresk]

That's actually a decent argument. Although at the moment it is still a what if. However, if that's where the fluff decides to go, I will abide by it.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Its never been said that the 'forces' of Chaos overwhelm the 'forces' of good or neutrality/stillness/balance (whatever) it just seems like Chaos is the only spectral agency (we known of) that actively takes part in trying to affect things that happen in the material realm. Perhaps the good/neutral forces think that a material/warp overlap (and essentially wiping out life as we know it) is a good thing and do not care if material life is brought to an end.

 

Belief is a powerful force in the realm of 40k; it is tangible and can do supernatural things by our own reckoning. The fact the native Fenrisian people believe their powers are drawn from the fury of Fenris and it keeps them safe to some extent. Charms, totems, fetishes and talismans are used by both Wyrmdrake and Ahriman and they have a discussion in Thousand Sons about the similarities of the two schools and the slight differences in their application and how control is applied. The difference in my opinion between these two practitioners is that one tries to control the uncontrollable while the other draws from the wellspring (well put!). When Ahriman asks Wyrmdrake how the Rune Priest found him and Wyrmdrake answered something along the lines "I looked for the place of stillness amidst the raging torrent of the sea and I found you." When Ahriman described the Rune Priests as seeing the Great Ocean as an extension of the Seas of Fenris; there is very little one can do to control the ocean, man or Marine and the Wolves know this. The Wolves in their practice did not seek mastery of Great Ocean like the Thousand Sons did. It is born of their Fenrisian upbringing.

 

I think you are totally correct Faceless: Fenris itself is the reason the Wolves continued on their path of flaunting the rules post-Nikacene Council. The people of Fenris are superstitious, fearful of magick; Fenris, where a man is measured by the strength of his arm and his worth to the tribe/clan/kinsmen. The protection offered by the willful ignorance of the Wolves and their harsh death world upbringing lends itself onto the table-top with saving throws and pelts. This is no less valid than Red Ork vehicles going faster through the power of belief. It offers them protection, it offers them strength but one of the strongest points reiterated throughout Prospero Burns is that while knowledge is power, an open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unlocked and unbarred. Hawser was an example of this, Magnus was an example of this and it was a lesson the Wolves knew well; "There is such a thing as too much" after all. Even with protection and doing it the 'right' way (I think) the Wolves were still in violation of the Supreme Judgement of the (God)-Emperor of All-Mankind. Look at the history of what happened to those sects/faiths that went against the rulings of the Nicene Creed and the Ecumenical councils that this event is patterned after; some were ignored as harmless, some were brought into the fold over time, some were destroyed. The reason is wasnt a big deal was that the Wolves were not overreaching, just using powers, and their transgressions were relatively harmless. The Thousand Sons were using daemons as foci for their powers. Heck, in one scene they were too lazy to strip and clean their wargear so they had their daemons do it. That is definitely a No-No. Application and control and that comes from the different upbringings/experiences they had; Magnus found power and remade Prospero in his image, Russ experienced power (the death world of Fenris and its creatures/people) and made himself into it's image.

 

So when did the Librarians come back? I would suspect whenever the Legions/Primarchs decided that the Emperor's ruling was a stupid one and bad for the Legion, Imperium and Humanity. Did they ever leave? Mortarion tried explaining causality to Magnus by saying "Give a man a gun and he'll want to use it." Teach him the why of when to use it and that person and people around him will be better served for it.

[Anaraion]

@Anarion: In that ase I apologize, I thought you were being cheeky. The reality is, no one knows. If it was the old fluff when just sorcery was disbanded, yeah there would be no problem. But like Dan Abnett said, he wanted to throw in contradictions. Such as the Edict forbidding all psykers from using their inherent powers instead of a specific group of psykers using something other than their inherent powers.

 

Thanks and I am sorry if I came across poorly but this sorta hacks me off.

 

We had fluff that worked... now we do not. I originally started off thinking the change was not as significant and have since learned it is not close but contridictory. So again apologies if my tone and focus have shifted.

 

We now have some rather good arguements on why we might be doing what we are doing, but the core issue is this is not a guideline from a peer, like the Codex Astartes, a mandate from the Inquisition, such as in Emperor's Gift, this is an Edict from the Emperor... :devil:.

 

It makes no sense we are sent to crush the Thousand Sons for psykers with Imperial Allies if we have psykers as well. I feel like the BL did a poor job here as we the 40k community are really strecthing to try and make their story credible based on the rules they have given us.

 

On the plus side Wolves are just bigger rebels now... :blush: .

 

(that was sarcasm in case anyone is having trouble with my written text and emoticon)

[The 13th Goat]

Can anyone point me in the direction of the story wher ethe Dark Angels redeploy Librarians? Think I missed that one....

 

In the book The primarchs. During a strange warp anomaly created by the desctruction of a Night Lords ship.

The Dark Angels vessel was attacked by warp entities and Lion El Jonson ordered a counter attack with Navigators and ex-Librarian in the front.

 

The decision was extremely clear..."Tell the Librarians they are relieved of their Nikaean Oaths" (page 265).

 

Thanks Karkass, I genuinly missed that. Serves me right for skimming...

[Blood Angel Scout]

Can also look at Sanguinius's order to Ralderon at the end of Fear to Tread, regarding the message to send to Dorn:

 

"'Ral' he began 'when we reach the flagship, I want you to send word to my brother. Tell Dorn what we fought here, if you can find the words. Tell him that the Blood Angels are on the way to Terra with all possible speed.'"

 

By this point in the timeline, the majority of the loyalist primarchs (maybe all except Dorn?) have witnessed/experienced the ability of daemons and recognise the need for a counter-measure. My opinion is that the re-establishment of Librarians will take place when the loyalists meet up for the first time since the betrayal, by the looks of things this will be the "second act" of the HH series as several of the stories are building up to the meeting being organised

[Kol Saresk]

Not entirely true. Khan, Dorn, Corax and possibly Vulkan, depending on where he went. That's actually a pretty decent number. In the case of Corax, all he has met so far are a capable of Possessed Word Bearers and mutated Word Bearers. He's probably confused the Possessed for overly mutated since a few of the Gal Vorbak died at Istvaan V.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Not entirely true. Khan, Dorn, Corax and possibly Vulkan, depending on where he went. That's actually a pretty decent number. In the case of Corax, all he has met so far are a capable of Possessed Word Bearers and mutated Word Bearers. He's probably confused the Possessed for overly mutated since a few of the Gal Vorbak died at Istvaan V.

 

Was thinking more along the lines of Corax's reaction to the WB on Deliverance and his ability to recognise the "taint" of Chaos. Again it depends on how we the reader interpret things and from which I've taken it as if the primarchs are the great generals, master stragetists etc, then they will recognise the need to fight etheral fire with fire and that the Librarians are the foremost available option

[Raleii]

On the subject of the "Why can the Wolves have Psykers and no one else" is that the Emperor pretty much made each legion too do a certain job...role...and we all know the "Job" of the Wolves were the executioners, which is said in one of the HH books, don't ask me too quote which one, as i cannot for the life of me remember.

 

But i do know that in Prospero Burns one of the Wolves state that people mistake what they do for Barbarism, they just win by ANY MEANS NECESSARY

(When they started using the weapons of the Quietude on the Quietude themselves, then swiching back too Bolters when the Quietude's armour was effective against Quietude weaponry.)

 

Which also ties into why the Big E allowed Russ to still use Psykers, because anyone stepped out of line, Russ was going too be the one sent too pull them into line, and Psykers are just another weapon that Russ will wield effectively.

 

But i think as the HH progress' more, i think we'll see the Emperor maybe over-rule the Eddict to combat the Daemons and such that start appearing with the Traitor armies.