When Did librarians come back?

[ZAChos]

I'm currently reading through the two books again in preperation for my Pre heresy force, and thought I'd throw this out there.

 

It's pretty clear that whatever your views on the wolves, they themselves believed there was a big difference between what they do as rune priests and what the thousand sons do as librarians. Even if the edict does not protect the Rune Priests, it's reasonable to assume that they either thought it did, or that it should. I rather get the feeling that Russ was hoping for a ban on Librarians and got a ban on Psychic powers, which he didn't agree with, so ignored it.

[Kol Saresk]

And that is the root of the entire situation ZAchaos. What it ends up coming down to is just who was included/excluded in the Edict of Nikea? When the Emperor said "Librarius program", did he include or exclude the Wolves' Rune Priests in that statement? The fluff is unsure. Everyone outside the Wolves says yes while everyone inside the Wolves says no. And anyone high to give a total answer(the Emperor) has uet to have had a comment.

[ZAChos]

My point is that may be intentional. Maybe the wolves understand it to ban the librarius. They clearly think, rightly or wrongly that their power is different to the ksons.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah I wasn't saying that you are wrong, because that very belief is stated in the fluff. I was just that's the cause of the problem because it is a view that only the Wolves seem to share and while there is nothing to say they are wrong, there is nothing to say that they are right and there is actually some evidence pointing to them being wrong based on their behavior and the fact that what is agreed as the number target of the Edict, gives the viewpoint that both the KSons and the Wolves have violated the Edict.

[Anaraion]

And that is the root of the entire situation ZAchaos. What it ends up coming down to is just who was included/excluded in the Edict of Nikea? When the Emperor said "Librarius program", did he include or exclude the Wolves' Rune Priests in that statement? The fluff is unsure. Everyone outside the Wolves says yes while everyone inside the Wolves says no. And anyone high to give a total answer(the Emperor) has uet to have had a comment.

 

So Avon's post quoting the Emperor doesn't count... or is he a wolf in a robe :tu:?

 

Hate to say it, but I side with the Wolves on this one. Please bear with me as I quote the oft-quoted edict. Emphasis mine.

 

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All of its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ psychic powers.

 

Let's extrapolate that.

 

"The Librarius Department's warriors must never again employ psychic powers."

 

This edict specifically applies only to Astartes of a legion's the Librarius department... should they have one.

 

The Rune Priests ARE exempt, because they are not a Libarius Department. AND NO THIS IS NOT JUST A NAME CHANGE.

 

The Rune Priests methods of using psychic powers were not the same as the Librarius method. The method of psychic abilities employed by the Rune Priests was not on trial, in the new fluff. The Librarius Department's methods were developed and taught by Mangus's Thousand Sons, and it was THEIR METHOD that was on trial.

 

Again, the edict is NOT "All astartes may not use psychic powers" it's "All Astartes formerly of the Libarius Department may not use psychic powers."

 

Obstensibly, if Russ wanted to start his own inter-Legion psyker program based on the teachings of Rune Priests, he could have. Since Rune Priests never employed Librarius methods.

 

I would think this is significant if that quote is accurate based on this from Index Astartes...

 

The particular psychic powers and practises they employ, however, are based on those of the traditional shamans of their home world. Fenris, and as such are very different to the Codex form.

 

So if that is indeed what the Big E said EXACTLY... "Librarius Department"... then how is that absolutely clear to affect The Rout?

[The Colossus]

The emps quote can be interpreted differently. The second sentence, with reference to "it's warriors", could be referring to the legion and not the Librarius department specifically, I.e. the whole statement is two separate ones about the Legion.

[KarkassBC]

The emps quote can be interpreted differently. The second sentence, with reference to "it's warriors", could be referring to the legion and not the Librarius department specifically, I.e. the whole statement is two separate ones about the Legion.

 

Sincerely the sentence appears clearly related to the Librarium and not the Legion.

 

But the real questions are:

 

Rune Seers are Librarian with a different name and fall inside the decree?

 

The source of their Power is the Warp or another source?

 

Until now, the possible differences between Warp power and Fenris power are described by Russ and his Wolves saying "we are not sorcerer like Magnus" but we saw same effects and powers. Maybe the only reliable difference is they don't use books (Prospero Burn).

 

What give me reasons to doubt are the words of Mortarion. He told that he never allowed the creation of the Librarian department in his Legion and he never allowed the use of psychic powers between his sons. He was also a strong supporter of Russ and fully backed his request to the Emperor to have the TS censured (for the kine shield around the Great Library... not for the spells used to support the compliance of the Ark Reach Cluster... the problem arose only in that moment).

If the Rune Seers were useful and Russ was a friend of Mortarion, why there aren't Rune Seers showing to the psykers of the Death Guards the right way to use the powers.

Because Mortarion disliked every psychic power and knew perfectly Rune Seers and Librarian are the same and not different.

[Avon Rekaes]

The emps quote can be interpreted differently. The second sentence, with reference to "it's warriors", could be referring to the legion and not the Librarius department specifically, I.e. the whole statement is two separate ones about the Legion.

 

Nope.

 

Space Marines in battle companies without psychic powers can't be commanded to return to their battle companies they're already in and stop using psychic powers they don't have. The Emperor was not making a decree about every warrior in every legion. Only the ones in the aforementioned Librarius Department.

 

Again, this might seem like semantics to some, but it's the way english grammar works. The subject of the sentence is "it's warriors and instructors". The warriors and instructors in question are absolutely referred to by the previous sentence's object, that is "a Librarius Department". Which makes more sense for the Nikean Edict?

 

All of Every Legion's warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies.

or

All of Each Legion's Librarius Deprtment's warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies.

?

 

In the context of limiting and disbanding said Librarius Department, it would HAVE to be the second one. The first would just be a random reassignment of astartes for no particular reason, and would be a complete nonsequitor in the context of the Nikean Council.

 

Now, granted, the both of the below would also make sense:

 

All of Every Legion's warriors and instructors must never again employ psychic powers.

and

All of Each Legion's Librarius Deprtment's warriors and instructors must never again employ psychic powers.

And this is the main thrust of the argument. Was it Every Warrior in Every Legion that could never again use psychic powers, or just Warriors in Librarius Departments?

 

However, despite these two sentences BOTH making sense, only ONE of the first pair makes sense. And since the subject of a sentence didn't change in the middle of the Emperor's decree, it can only be one of them.

 

But even if it did just apply to Librarius Departments, did the Emperor consider the Rune Priests to BE a "Librarius Department"? That's also in question and up for interpretation. Some might say "Anyone not a wolf would say he did", but I think there's still grounds for rational, contemplative, reasonable people like Dark Angels players to still think there's doubt about that, even if I'm not a savage, rabid, mead-drunk, longtoothed mutant degenerate. (See, I'm not a wolf in Dark Angel's clothing :D)

 

I choose to believe it's the one that makes the most sense. IE, it applies in context to both statements being made, not just one.

 

However as was pointed out, analyzing the grammar of the statement is most likely moot, as later works in the Horus Heresy line do not fall in line with the strict grammatical reading of the decree.

[The Colossus]

I just re-read the quote, and I agree, in my haste I overlooked the battle companies bit. I retract my previous statement... Bah yeah me to read things properly.

[Phoros]

Obviously, the Emperor meant for it to include all psykers, but Russ used his exact wording to find a loophole... :D

[Avon Rekaes]

Obviously, the Emperor meant for it to include all psykers, but Russ used his exact wording to find a loophole... :D

 

Honestly for me it isn't an "exact wording loophole", it's just... reading comprehension. It's like if I said "Crap, I need 50 bucks to get a new terminator squad, but I'm a dollar short. I need you to give me the rest", and you suddenly screaming at me "I'M NOT GIVING YOU FIFTY BUCKS ARE YOU CRAZY?!".

 

Just because "the rest" is the exact wording of what I said, it isn't so much a "loophole" to diffuse the arguement by clarifying "No, man, I said I just need one."

 

It's just that... you heard me/ interpreted what I said incorrectly.

[Anaraion]

Obviously, the Emperor meant for it to include all psykers, but Russ used his exact wording to find a loophole... :D

 

Actually this is the part I have the most issue with because original fluff made so much sense. Index Astartes quote...

 

Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve Mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.

 

The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation.

 

So here is is sorcery that is outlawed and is still in effect today. Wow how simple and easy. I honestly think the current writers just messed up. This new fluff is vexing on so many levels when the old fluff was so solid and made sense.

[Emperor's Furor]

Kind of on the same topic, but does anyone know when Librarians were formed? I think I read the Khan, Magnus and someone else worked to create it, so they wouldn't of been around during the early part of the crusade right?

[Warsmith IV]

Kind of on the same topic, but does anyone know when Librarians were formed? I think I read the Khan, Magnus and someone else worked to create it, so they wouldn't of been around during the early part of the crusade right?

 

They were a joint venture of the Khan, Magnus and Sanguinius. So sometime after those 3 Primarchs were found.

 

Russ was convinced it didn't apply to the Rune Priests because the Space Wolves are in denial about how their powers work. Every other Legion that came across the Space Wolves denial seemed very confused and rather angry about this (e.g.

In Fear to Tread when the Blood Angel see a Rune Priest among the envoy of Space Wolves sent to them

)

 

But hey, since the rest of the Space Marines have in the intervening 10,000 years decided it doesn't apply to them anymore, who cares? The Edict has still never been repealed, so any Space Marine using psychic powers or allowing Space Marines under their command to use psychic powers are traitors by the law of the Emperor.

[Avon Rekaes]

Here's my attempt to make the new fluff make sense:

 

If we can at least agree that the Nikean Decree applies only to the Librarius Department, we need to define what the "Librarius Department" is. We can argue about if Rune Priests "counts", or if the Emperor "meant" to ban all psychic powers everwhere, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of what was meant, just deliberately stretching my interpretation and fitting it as well as I can.

 

So, the Nikean Edict, by the "exact words" interpretation I set forth says that the Librarius Department is to be disbanded, and no astartes (formerly) from the Librarius Department may use psychic powers.

 

This can be interpreted because the Emperor feels that the methods and practices of the Librarius Department are tainted and dangerous, and any astartes having learned under it are therefore also tainted. He may not believe they can be re-edjucated, and doesn't trust that they can use psychic powers safel ywith this tainted knowledge lurking in their minds. It could be He thought the sorcerous ways of the Thousand Sons tainted the existing Stormseers and Blood Angels Librarians that taught in the Librarius Department as well. The "one bad apple spoils the bunch" line of thinking.

 

So, first, the Rune Priests are exempt, because they never had any contact with the Thousand Son's way of doing things, even secondarily through a Stormseer or BA Libby that interacted with them. Their ignorance of the source of their powers would actually be a virtue.

 

Second, a brand new psychic program started after the Librarius Department, that never had any contact with the 1k Son's sorcerous teachings would also be exempt.

 

Because they would not be warriors or instructors from the Librarius Department. They're just Astartes with psychic abilities.

 

So it's possible that sometime after the Nikean Council, a brand new Librarian program was developed, with no educational ties to the original Librarius Department, and therefore clean of any possible connection to Magnus's way of doing things. And therefore, entirely sanctioned by Imperial law.

 

When was this? It would have to be some time before Guilliman wrote his Codex Astartes. Because he clearly delineates the duties and rank of the Librarians within it, and what their role in a Chapter would be. It could be the Emperor okayed it. It could have been a rationalization of Guillaman by "exact word loopholing" the Nikean Council after Big E's interment within the Golden Throne.

 

But, it's still possible that current-day Librarians are still perfectly legal and sanctioned by the Imperium, while the ancient Librarian Department and all it's members were forbidden from ever using psychic powers again.

 

Afterall, the Nikean Edict was about the warriors and instructors of the "Librarius Department", while modern Librarians belong to the "Librarium" of their Chapter.

 

How's that for "exact wording"?

[KarkassBC]

@Avon Rekaes

Your Primarch (if you belong to the Dark Angels) reintroduced the Librarian very soon after the start of the Heresy without asking anything to Guilliman and his new Codex (in the same moment he considered Guilliman as a traitor or at least a misguided fool).

 

He was a complete loyal follower of the Emperor but he wasted only two seconds to decide to use "the tainted powers".

 

(of course it would be only Alpha Legion propaganda to spread Chaos amongst the Imperial forces)

 

 

What I want to know is the answer to this dilemma that trouble me a lot:

 

Why the Rune Seers didn't provide services to the Death Guards psykers as different instructors than the Librarium? The Death Guards students, thanks to their blessed Primarch, were not tainted by the foul teaching of Magnus about the Warp... Why the Rune Seers didin't provide help and wisdom to a true friend of Russ?

 

My erroneus and faulty answer is that Mortarion considered the Rune Seers guilty of psy-taint as the Thousand Sons. Please enlight me and show the errors in my thoughts.

[Grimtooth]

We also have the Space Wolves saying that they have to conceal that their Rune Priest still uses his powers, because he isn't allowed to use them. The Space Wolves aren't "free to do as they please", Raldoron is carefully watching the Rune Priest, and is incredibly suspicious of him, thinking that he's a psyker. So yes, it seems that the Space Wolves are in fact bound by the Edict, but that those in power haven't gotten around to reprimanding them about it yet. After all, they may have broken the Edict, but they're doing so in a "harmless" way, and are entirely loyal. Malcador isn't going to be throwing away an incredibly useful Legion in the middle of a civil war for a relatively minor crime.

 

Don't bother. He didn't give a crap about evidences before, he isn't going to do it now.

 

You mean evidence like before this whole HH retcon took place, there is absolutely zero record of the Space Wolves being sanctioned for using rune priests? Do you mean evidence like the rune priests never being part of the Librarius program in ANY of the old Index Ast

Artes articles? Do you mean evidence like the new directly quoted edict from the Emperor being changed to specifically say, Librarians/Librarius/etc?

 

Frankly your point is,

 

"The rune priests use the same powers the Thousand Sons do so they are hypocrits!!"

 

Which completely does not even coincide what the Emperor is quoted as having said at the council. The whole damn council was about the LIBRARIAN CRISIS. Malcador specifically points this out, per verbatim. The LIBRARIAN CRISIS is not so much about the use of psychic powers in the Legions, about WHO had been the instructors and main founder behind the Librarius Project; Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

 

See, what so many people fail to see is that the edict passed at Nikea was much more then shutting down the Librarius Program. It was basically the Emperor doing to Magnus what he had already done to Lorgar. It was the Emperor basically telling Magnus that his grand plan of ushering in a golden age of enlightment through forbidden knowledge was not going to happen. Magnus' plan of first gaining acceptance of librarians within the ranks of the Astartes, followed by acceptance by the masses through the training of his specifically selected, "gifted" remembrancers, was deemed a no-go by the Emperor. That is why Magnus was so crushed, just as Lorgar when chatised by the Emperor, by the edict. It was not just the librarius program, but Magnus' vision for humanity that was censured by the Emperor.

[KarkassBC]

We also have the Space Wolves saying that they have to conceal that their Rune Priest still uses his powers, because he isn't allowed to use them. The Space Wolves aren't "free to do as they please", Raldoron is carefully watching the Rune Priest, and is incredibly suspicious of him, thinking that he's a psyker. So yes, it seems that the Space Wolves are in fact bound by the Edict, but that those in power haven't gotten around to reprimanding them about it yet. After all, they may have broken the Edict, but they're doing so in a "harmless" way, and are entirely loyal. Malcador isn't going to be throwing away an incredibly useful Legion in the middle of a civil war for a relatively minor crime.

 

Don't bother. He didn't give a crap about evidences before, he isn't going to do it now.

 

You mean evidence like before this whole HH retcon took place, there is absolutely zero record of the Space Wolves being sanctioned for using rune priests? Do you mean evidence like the rune priests never being part of the Librarius program in ANY of the old Index Ast

Artes articles? Do you mean evidence like the new directly quoted edict from the Emperor being changed to specifically say, Librarians/Librarius/etc?

 

Frankly your point is,

 

"The rune priests use the same powers the Thousand Sons do so they are hypocrits!!"

 

Which completely does not even coincide what the Emperor is quoted as having said at the council. The whole damn council was about the LIBRARIAN CRISIS. Malcador specifically points this out, per verbatim. The LIBRARIAN CRISIS is not so much about the use of psychic powers in the Legions, about WHO had been the instructors and main founder behind the Librarius Project; Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

 

See, what so many people fail to see is that the edict passed at Nikea was much more then shutting down the Librarius Program. It was basically the Emperor doing to Magnus what he had already done to Lorgar. It was the Emperor basically telling Magnus that his grand plan of ushering in a golden age of enlightment through forbidden knowledge was not going to happen. Magnus' plan of first gaining acceptance of librarians within the ranks of the Astartes, followed by acceptance by the masses through the training of his specifically selected, "gifted" remembrancers, was deemed a no-go by the Emperor. That is why Magnus was so crushed, just as Lorgar when chatised by the Emperor, by the edict. It was not just the librarius program, but Magnus' vision for humanity that was censured by the Emperor.

 

I prefer to call the Council for its real name: the RUSS CRISIS. Because the Council was called by the Emperor for a pressing request of Russ after the Ark Reach Cluster compliance and in particular for the Kine barrier around the Great Library that prevented to the Space Wolves to raze every building in the conquered city.

For the sake to maintain Unity between his Sons and Legions, the Emperor accepted the request of Russ and disbanded the Librarium project without taking care of the views of the psykers belonging to the others Legions. He knew that Magnus would have accepted whether Russ would never accepted a different outcome (he is a black or white mind). So he choosed the minor problem to protect the Unity.

 

The acceptance of the masses through two gifted remembrancers in a galaxy of thousand of thousand of world was very hard to believe. Maybe Magnus plan a very very long plan...

 

The question of Rune Priests not sanctioned for their acts is too vague as a proof of different powers. The Thousand Sons continued to use their powers after Nikaea but the sanctioning come only after Magnus broke inside the Emperor throne room.

 

Why comparing to Magnus to Lorgar? Everyone knows that those are the two biggest errors of the Emperor.

He censured Lorgar for the worship... now the Emperor sit on a Golden Throne and a million of worlds pray and worship him... If the plan was to erase the religion from the Imperium, it seem that has failed completely...

He censured Magnus for the psykers amongst the astartes... now we have a complete Chapter of psykers (the Grey Knight) and in every loyal Legion/Chapter to fight the Chaos powers we have more librarian than before (thanks to Guilliman and his Codex; he realized that the librarian were the biggest weapon against the warp demons).

 

Oh I forgot... without the censoring of Lorgar, we wouldn't have the Heresy and without Nikaea Magnus would have warned the Emperor about Horus treachery in a more normal way (without the need to appear inside a psy-warded chamber and opening a warp gate in the Sacred Terra, destroying every chance for a Human Webway)

[Grimtooth]

We also have the Space Wolves saying that they have to conceal that their Rune Priest still uses his powers, because he isn't allowed to use them. The Space Wolves aren't "free to do as they please", Raldoron is carefully watching the Rune Priest, and is incredibly suspicious of him, thinking that he's a psyker. So yes, it seems that the Space Wolves are in fact bound by the Edict, but that those in power haven't gotten around to reprimanding them about it yet. After all, they may have broken the Edict, but they're doing so in a "harmless" way, and are entirely loyal. Malcador isn't going to be throwing away an incredibly useful Legion in the middle of a civil war for a relatively minor crime.

 

Don't bother. He didn't give a crap about evidences before, he isn't going to do it now.

 

You mean evidence like before this whole HH retcon took place, there is absolutely zero record of the Space Wolves being sanctioned for using rune priests? Do you mean evidence like the rune priests never being part of the Librarius program in ANY of the old Index Ast

Artes articles? Do you mean evidence like the new directly quoted edict from the Emperor being changed to specifically say, Librarians/Librarius/etc?

 

Frankly your point is,

 

"The rune priests use the same powers the Thousand Sons do so they are hypocrits!!"

 

Which completely does not even coincide what the Emperor is quoted as having said at the council. The whole damn council was about the LIBRARIAN CRISIS. Malcador specifically points this out, per verbatim. The LIBRARIAN CRISIS is not so much about the use of psychic powers in the Legions, about WHO had been the instructors and main founder behind the Librarius Project; Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

 

See, what so many people fail to see is that the edict passed at Nikea was much more then shutting down the Librarius Program. It was basically the Emperor doing to Magnus what he had already done to Lorgar. It was the Emperor basically telling Magnus that his grand plan of ushering in a golden age of enlightment through forbidden knowledge was not going to happen. Magnus' plan of first gaining acceptance of librarians within the ranks of the Astartes, followed by acceptance by the masses through the training of his specifically selected, "gifted" remembrancers, was deemed a no-go by the Emperor. That is why Magnus was so crushed, just as Lorgar when chatised by the Emperor, by the edict. It was not just the librarius program, but Magnus' vision for humanity that was censured by the Emperor.

 

I prefer to call the Council for its real name: the RUSS CRISIS. Because the Council was called by the Emperor for a pressing request of Russ after the Ark Reach Cluster compliance and in particular for the Kine barrier around the Great Library that prevented to the Space Wolves to raze every building in the conquered city.

For the sake to maintain Unity between his Sons and Legions, the Emperor accepted the request of Russ and disbanded the Librarium project without taking care of the views of the psykers belonging to the others Legions. He knew that Magnus would have accepted whether Russ would never accepted a different outcome (he is a black or white mind). So he choosed the minor problem to protect the Unity.

 

The acceptance of the masses through two gifted remembrancers in a galaxy of thousand of thousand of world was very hard to believe. Maybe Magnus plan a very very long plan...

 

The question of Rune Priests not sanctioned for their acts is too vague as a proof of different powers. The Thousand Sons continued to use their powers after Nikaea but the sanctioning come only after Magnus broke inside the Emperor throne room.

 

Why comparing to Magnus to Lorgar? Everyone knows that those are the two biggest errors of the Emperor.

He censured Lorgar for the worship... now the Emperor sit on a Golden Throne and a million of worlds pray and worship him... If the plan was to erase the religion from the Imperium, it seem that has failed completely...

He censured Magnus for the psykers amongst the astartes... now we have a complete Chapter of psykers (the Grey Knight) and in every loyal Legion/Chapter to fight the Chaos powers we have more librarian than before (thanks to Guilliman and his Codex; he realized that the librarian were the biggest weapon against the warp demons).

 

Oh I forgot... without the censoring of Lorgar, we wouldn't have the Heresy and without Nikaea Magnus would have warned the Emperor about Horus treachery in a more normal way (without the need to appear inside a psy-warded chamber and opening a warp gate in the Sacred Terra, destroying every chance for a Human Webway)

 

Your observations here just prove that you do not read the books, but pretty much skim through them.

 

The Librarian Crisis is explained in full. It started long before the Ark Reach Cluster incident, mainly with the creation of the Librarius Program, but the fact that said program was chiefly led by Magnus and the Thousand Sons. A Legion whose problems with psychic mutation was already in question before Magnus was ever reunited with them and when cured, raised even more suspiscion. That takes care of your, "Russ Crisis" attempt at changing the scenario.

 

As to your point about it soley being two remembrancers, again you are wrong. The entire remembrancer contingent with the Thousand Sons fleet were specially picked for their gifts. Again, this was in the book and again you missed this detail. The remembrancers were sent to the Legions to chronicle the Great Crusade and spread the propaganda of its greatness through their talents to the masses. Magnus was intent on chronicling and spreading the propaganda of the Great Crusade with his own vision of a psychically enlightened age with his "gifted" remembrancers.

 

And I am comparing Lorgar to Magnus because the comparison is valid. Both were attempting to psuh an agenda that did not mesh with the Emperor; Lorgar by making the Emperor a religious diety to worship and Magnus wanting humanity to embrace psychic enlightenment. In both cases the Emperor turned to each and pretty much gave their asses a swat and told them to do as they are told. We see the ramifications of that action now.

[Kol Saresk]

Not just that, but IIRC, the Grey Knights are now Radicals who use a lot of powers similar to what the Thousand Sons. But there are three things you are missing Ramses.

 

1.) This is a retcon. That means that the new fluff suoerscedes all old fluff. The "canon" fluff is whatever is the most recently published. 40k is not like Star Wars where the "canon" has ranks for which source can supercede each source. GW, BL and FW all operate on an equal ranking basis. Mean that GW can post something one day, FW can post something the next and then BL can post something the third day. All three can be about the exact same topic, but each one say something different and conflict with each other. But it will be the most recent one, in this case BL's, that will be "canon".

 

2.) New fluff says that Rune Priests use similar powers to Thousands Sons. Or I guess it'd be the other way around since the Thousand Sons liked to know all five hundred ways to do one thing. In the older fluff, the two Legions used very different powers as well as methods. In the old fluff, the Edict targeted a specific method of warp use as well as its in herent powers, and because the Thousand Sons were the only ones who used that method, they were targeted. In the new fluff, we don't see any of that. Partially because as you pointed out, both Legions virtually use the same powers, just with different names. As you poited out, the Edict no longer focuses on a specific type of warp use, which means it no longer targets a specific Legion.

 

3.) There are two arguments. One is as you pointed out, the Wolves and the Librarius program use similar, if not same, methods of warp use. The other argument is, to a rather large degree, semantics. Because the Emperor says "Librarians", that automatically means only those bearing the titles of Librarians. Meaning it should be perfectly okay for anyone who doesn't use that title to go ahead and keep using their powers right? But then everyone also targets the Stormseers. Why? Because of their Primarch's connection to the Librarius program? Again, why? From what we have seen of the Dark Anngel Librarians, we can see that the Crusade-era Librarians used the same ranks as the "modern" Librarians. But the KSons don't use the same ranking system. What's the point of all this? The titles mean flippitysquat, nothing, nada, zip, zilch, nil. What it all boils down to in the end is what the Emperor means when he says "Librarian". Obviously the only Legion to think their psykers were excluded were the Space Wolves. But even they realized they had to hide their psykers from other Legions. Why? If they were sanctioned by the Emperor then there would be no need to hide. Why did the Sisters of Silence and the Custodians fight alongside of them? Don't know. Working on the assumption that the Custodians and Sisters knew the SW were still using their psykers. Wouldn't be the first time a Legion hid something right under the nose of a Custodes.

 

So in essence, until something comes out that says the Rune Priests were specifically excluded when the Emperor said Librarian, we have to fall back on the only certain usage of the word, which is the 40k equivalent that is used as a catch-all phrase for all Astartes psykers who are loyal to the Imperium.

 

Also, the comparison between Lorgar and Magnus is not fair. Lorgar wasn't censured for his religious beliefs. After all, Russ was never censured his belief in the Emperor being the All-Father. No, Lorgar was censured because he was moving to slow in conquering worlds. The reason he was moving too slow, was his religious beliefs. We can see this because the Lectitio Divinatus was a direct product of Lorgar's belief in the Emperor's divinity. But the Imperium never went after the Lectitio. So two different birds.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Also, let's remember that Russ wasnt the only primarch that had...difficulties with Magnus and his practices.

 

Dorn (i believe), Mortarion, Russ and Corax have been noted as having problems with Magnus. When 4 of 18 primarchs openly have trouble with Magnus (revealed so far), thats a crisis in the making.

 

trying to label it the "Russ Crisis" does a poor job of hiding your bias.

 

EDIT: lets also remember that Magnus was being targeted by multiple chaos powers, as said in ATS and PB. So if Lorgar hadnt fallen, he still wouldnt have over-reached in halting his legion renewed flesh changes.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

But at the same time, so does saying "Oh by targeting Librarians it was targeting Magnus because he created it." Well so did Sanguinius and Khan, but nobody even thinks to suggest it was targeting them. And to be honest, there is only one Legion that never had anything that even remotely resembled the Librarian department and that is the Death Guard because Typhus worked pretty hard to keep his abilities a secret even from his Primarch.

[Grimtooth]

But at the same time, so does saying "Oh by targeting Librarians it was targeting Magnus because he created it." Well so did Sanguinius and Khan, but nobody even thinks to suggest it was targeting them. And to be honest, there is only one Legion that never had anything that even remotely resembled the Librarian department and that is the Death Guard because Typhus worked pretty hard to keep his abilities a secret even from his Primarch.

 

I pointed out how you were wrong about the remembrancers of the Thousand Sons and how you were wrong about the, "Russ Crisis" to which you funnily enough just sort of ignore now. Here is another,

 

As mentioned in A Thousand Sons, it was instructors FROM the Thousand Sons sent to the other Legions to create their Librariums. Hence why it is Magnus and the Thousand Sons being the target of testimony at the council and NOT Sang or Khan.

 

Do you notice that there is not testimony given during the trial that actually accuses librarians of sorcery? Notice how the testimony is directed at the practices and philosophy of Magnus and the Thousand Sons? That is what you continue to fail to comprehend. It is not that librarians are employing psychic powers, it is that librarians are employing psychic powers under the instruction and philosophies of Magnus and the Thousand Sons.

[Kol Saresk]

I wasn't the one who made those comments so no, I wasn't "proven wrong." And no, I did not "conveniently" forget a comment I never made.

 

Second, A Thousand Sons says that the Sons were targeted, because they were the Legion that was defined by its abundant use of psykers and that people still remembered that it was uncontrolled, or "rogue", psykers that caused Old Night. The Edict itself was targeting-well since it is called the "Librarian Crisis-Librarians. And you know what the best part of it is? On page 323 it says this "With the success of the early expirements(side note: Blood Angels, Thousand Sons and White Scars all performed expirements), many primarchs came to see the usefulness of Librarians, and allowedwarrior-scholars from the Thousand Sons to form Librarius departments within their ranks." Emphasis is mine. Why is it important? This is why: because page 101, it is said that a warrior-scholar of the Thousand Sons served with the Space Wolves. That meant that the Son in question went to the Wolves with the sole purpose of forming a Librarius department and that he had permission from Russ himself to be there. Meaning that there actually is a connection between the Rune Priests and the Librarius program. Holy crap. Wish I remembered that sooner.

[Augustus]

Dorn also broke the Emperor's ruling. They were suppose to be returned to battle companies.

 

Typhon was a Librarian but AFTER the legion found Mortarion he "resolved himself to become first Captain..."

 

In Angel Exterminatus an IH marine states that his legion -never had a Librarius department-