When Did librarians come back?

[Kol Saresk]

I haven't read Angel Exterminatus yet so I was unaware of the Iron Hands having a Librarian department, only the Death Guard which as Mortarion himself can be stated as saying "No Librarians sully the ranks of the Death Guard, and nor will they while I draw breath." Hmm, I don't remember where it mentions Typhus as previously being a Librarian. I mean I knew he was a psyker, but I thought that it was a well-hidden secret since the fluff kind of gives it this grand appearance when Typhus says that he can navigate the Death Guard fleet to Terra. Could you please provide at least the story that is mentioned? I hate reading things and missing details.

 

And good point about Dorn since he imprisoned the Librarians from his Legion. Although I don't recall if a "when" was given so it might have been after Magnus almost blew up the Golden Throne. In which case his paranoia might be justified.

[Augustus]

The IH -did NOT- have a Librarius program ;)

 

Well, as those locked up marines had no idea of any rebellion or problems on Terra I wold assume he never followed the order as they were REALLY in the dark. I knew Dorn was a traitor :D

 

"When he had been a member of the Librarius his powers had been considerable. Mortarion’s hatred of warpcraft had finished Typhon’s exploration of his other nature when the Dusk Raiders became Death Guard, and so he had committed himself to becoming First Captain."

 

Exact quote from the The Lion

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, okay thanks for that.

 

Now I've heard of the IF locking up their Librarians, that's in one of the audiodramas correct?

 

Although in their defense, Gulliman didn't even know Istvaan had happened until Lorgar came a-knocking...

[Augustus]

Correct. It was in Burden of Duty.

 

Interesting to note. The Lion reinstates his immediately while the Big Blue Boss states that "should they survive they should petition for their reinstatement"

[Kol Saresk]

"Man of Action" vs "Man of Reason"?

[Augustus]

Man of Action would do whatever gives the best chance to survive. "To hell with orders" sort of mentality.

 

Man of Pragmatism vs Man of Integrity

[Kol Saresk]

Fair enough.

[Grimtooth]

I wasn't the one who made those comments so no, I wasn't "proven wrong." And no, I did not "conveniently" forget a comment I never made.

 

Second, A Thousand Sons says that the Sons were targeted, because they were the Legion that was defined by its abundant use of psykers and that people still remembered that it was uncontrolled, or "rogue", psykers that caused Old Night. The Edict itself was targeting-well since it is called the "Librarian Crisis-Librarians. And you know what the best part of it is? On page 323 it says this "With the success of the early expirements(side note: Blood Angels, Thousand Sons and White Scars all performed expirements), many primarchs came to see the usefulness of Librarians, and allowedwarrior-scholars from the Thousand Sons to form Librarius departments within their ranks." Emphasis is mine. Why is it important? This is why: because page 101, it is said that a warrior-scholar of the Thousand Sons served with the Space Wolves. That meant that the Son in question went to the Wolves with the sole purpose of forming a Librarius department and that he had permission from Russ himself to be there. Meaning that there actually is a connection between the Rune Priests and the Librarius program. Holy crap. Wish I remembered that sooner.

 

I mixed up the two "K" names in the thread considering that you are both echoing the same sentiment, my bad.

 

However, you are wrong in the reason why a Thousand Son was sent to the Wolves. It was not to establish a Librarium, but instead to "cross train" Marines in other Legions warfare iirc. The same occured with members of all the Legions which in most cases fostered brotherhhods that extended across Legions.

 

Convenient that you leave out the fact that the Thousand Son in question hated the assignment and iirc his tour with the Wolves was gratefully, to him, cut short.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually he never says a specific reason as to why he was sent. But then again, the point to the Librarian program was to cross-train, but only if the Primarch from the other Legiob allowed him to come.

 

Also, he himself does not voice any sentiments, gratitude or otherwise, about his short tour. All he said was "They are... Not fond of outsiders." The only possible sogn of emotion is that Uthizzar spoke "softly", which can be interpreted as many ways as a bang on the Fourth of July in Southwest Tennessee, no offense to anyone from that neck of the woods.

[Augustus]

As it stands now, I feel the available text portrays the wolves as having ignored the the order to disband their psykers.

 

That said, its likely they were exempt from that order. Prospero Burns and the accompanying Custodes, I feel, are proof of that.

 

Look how the Custodian in Sword of Truth reacts to Rubio and his psychic powers... Not well.

 

A stab at throwing this thread back on topic.

 

I feel that the novel "The Unremembered Empire" will give the BA and the UM their use of psykers back. It looks like the Big Blue Boss is supporting Sanguinius as the 2nd Emperor. If so he could give the UM and BA "permission" to reinstate their Librarian program.

 

 

In summation:

TS- Ignored the Edict

AL- Appears to have ignored the Edict

 

SW-Appears to have ignored the Edict or have been exempt

 

DG- Never had them

IH- Never had them

 

DA- Those on Caliban seem unaware ( likely do to the change from banning sorcery to ALL psykers)

Those with the Lion have their oaths rescinded by him

UM- Wants to petition to have the program reinstated once contact with the Imperium is made

WS- Had "Storm seers" hinted that the Khan might have ignored the edict --Brotherhood of the Storm

 

WE- Doubtful they ever had them

SA- I have no information

IW- I have no information

EC- I have no information

SH- I have no Information

 

IF- Locked their Librarians away thereby ignoring the order to have them returned to regular battle companies

WB- Merged their Librarians in a single chapter

 

BA- Complied with the Edict.

RG- Complied with the Edict

NL- Possible that they complied with the edict. --Sevatar having repressed his powers

[Avon Rekaes]

@Avon Rekaes

Your Primarch (if you belong to the Dark Angels) reintroduced the Librarian very soon after the start of the Heresy without asking anything to Guilliman and his new Codex (in the same moment he considered Guilliman as a traitor or at least a misguided fool).

 

He was a complete loyal follower of the Emperor but he wasted only two seconds to decide to use "the tainted powers".

 

(of course it would be only Alpha Legion propaganda to spread Chaos amongst the Imperial forces)

 

No, it wasn't propadanda. My Primarch is just a Dirty-Harry level badass that gets the job done and asks questions later. Russ doesn't bother with asking questions. All kidding aside, I think it's much more within Lion El'Johnson's character to willfully disobey the Big E, while still being overall loyal, only caring for the pragmatic results, than it is for Russ to do the same. Russ is like a dog. He does what his master tells him to, and doesn't think too much about it. He sees himself as the Emperor's Best Friend, and wouldn't dream of disobeying him.

 

It's much more concievable to me that Russ just honestly and genuinely believed that Rune Priests Are Different, and that the Edict did not apply to them.

 

 

What I want to know is the answer to this dilemma that trouble me a lot:

 

Why the Rune Seers didn't provide services to the Death Guards psykers as different instructors than the Librarium? The Death Guards students, thanks to their blessed Primarch, were not tainted by the foul teaching of Magnus about the Warp... Why the Rune Seers didin't provide help and wisdom to a true friend of Russ?

 

My erroneus and faulty answer is that Mortarion considered the Rune Seers guilty of psy-taint as the Thousand Sons. Please enlight me and show the errors in my thoughts.

 

How can Russ teach dirty psykers to channel the pure spirit of Fenris? Like I said, it's much more likely that Russ completely 100% believes that Rune Priests are not psykers, so it doesn't even enter his mind that its a skill that CAN be taught to psykers. It would be like asking him "Hey Russ, can you have your Techmarines teach marines in my legion to be Apothecaries?" Well.. sure, maybe they can, if they went and learned how to be Apothecaries to. But in his mind it just doesn't make sense that way. Rune Priests aren't psykers, and there's no reason to teach psykers anything.

[KarkassBC]

@Avon Rekaes

 

Thanks for your answer. I appreciated a lot. The only point that remains outside is the view of Mortarion about the Fenris-Rune Priest power, but we cannot say anything until we will find an interaction Death Guards with Space Wolves after Nikaea but before the Heresy.

 

For the Dark Angels primarch and Librarian issue, the story "The Lion" is more important than it seems. Lion El' Johson used his psykers not only in the warp bubble to save the day but later even to give more pressure to a peace message and to have more power for an assault party.

 

So he considered the psykers as an important asset and not only to use in the most dire situations.

 

 

@Augustus

The NL have librarians. During the Nikaea Council there was a Chief Librarian of the Night Lords between the 12 speaking in front of the Emperor with the WS Stormseer.

[KarkassBC]

But at the same time, so does saying "Oh by targeting Librarians it was targeting Magnus because he created it." Well so did Sanguinius and Khan, but nobody even thinks to suggest it was targeting them. And to be honest, there is only one Legion that never had anything that even remotely resembled the Librarian department and that is the Death Guard because Typhus worked pretty hard to keep his abilities a secret even from his Primarch.

 

I pointed out how you were wrong about the remembrancers of the Thousand Sons and how you were wrong about the, "Russ Crisis" to which you funnily enough just sort of ignore now. Here is another,

 

As mentioned in A Thousand Sons, it was instructors FROM the Thousand Sons sent to the other Legions to create their Librariums. Hence why it is Magnus and the Thousand Sons being the target of testimony at the council and NOT Sang or Khan.

 

Do you notice that there is not testimony given during the trial that actually accuses librarians of sorcery? Notice how the testimony is directed at the practices and philosophy of Magnus and the Thousand Sons? That is what you continue to fail to comprehend. It is not that librarians are employing psychic powers, it is that librarians are employing psychic powers under the instruction and philosophies of Magnus and the Thousand Sons.

 

The question about the remembrancers doesn't regard Nikaea. The Ruling was only about the astartes and not the humans psykers.

 

If you read the books you will read clearly that Russ hadn't questioned the use of psychic powers during the fights on the Ark Reach Cluster. We can read that the TS opened a path, thanks to their powers, in the enemies defences to allow the WS to strike against the hidden defenders. He shouted against Magnus and his powers only after the Kine shield around the Great Library. And that was the least sorcerous use of the psychic powers used by the Thousand Sons.

 

Later, Mortarion said that Russ requested a lot of time a censoring of the Thousand Sons. So I label the Crisis with the name of Russ because the Council of Nikaea wouldn't have appeared without the actions of Russ. Differently if the Emperor speaking with Russ or another primarch received the idea of bad actions and decided about it without pressure. But an enraged Russ in your room asking vehemently for one thing is not the same scenario.

 

Testimony is a hard word for what appeared in the Nikaea Council.

We have a Rune Priest saying only "on my honour I declare them as sorcerers" but without descriptions of the activities performed (they raise the dead... they evoked demons... etc.), we have a primarch (Mortarion) saying what he has seen on two planets where the TS never went and the actions done by human untrained psykers...

 

For the other primarchs that share a possible hatred of the librarian project we don't have more information.

 

Corax said that he didn't want to fight alongside Magnus and TS. Ok, I agree on that, but this info doesn't give light on the presence/abscence of RG librarian inside the Legion.

Iron Hands could have simpler reasons to not have a librarian detachment inside the Legion. Maybe they have very few psykers or their powers are extremely limited. Maybe the human population lack the gene or the astartes geneseed negate or reduced the power. For a complete view we need to know the reasons behind that decision. But we cannot imply that IH disliked the TS methods.

[Augustus]

KarkassBC,

 

Thanks.

 

and also a good point about the Lion. Wonder if he disagreed with the Edict or if he became a pragmatist. In Descent of Angels he seems like he distrusts psykers a bit. And also in the Lion he admits that psykers with the ability to access his mind makes him uncomfortable.

 

 

TFtD: it is better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.

[Anaraion]

So in essence, until something comes out that says the Rune Priests were specifically excluded when the Emperor said Librarian, we have to fall back on the only certain usage of the word, which is the 40k equivalent that is used as a catch-all phrase for all Astartes psykers who are loyal to the Imperium.

 

No.

 

 

Until we get clarification we have two entirably plausible avenues. You keep ascetaining we have only one because you say the definition is as you say and "all agree" except the wolves.

 

But I would offer based on Avon's excellent and far more definitive and logical reasoning that until someone shows where Rune Priest WERE meant to be included we are fine... :D.

[Emperor's Furor]

Alpha Legion did have a psyker, he showed up in The Serpent Beneath, although I'm unsure whether they just reinstated marines psykers, previously though they used non marine psykers.

[ZAChos]

Pg 241 of A Thousand Sons has an argument between Russ and Magnus. Russ seems genuinely amused at the thought that his rune priests are anything like Magnus's librarians. If this is the case, then when Russ would see no reason to shut them down. If you asked him why he was still using rune priests, he'd probably look at you quizically and ask you why you were still using apothecaries. The comparison is not there for him.

 

Interestingly, as an aside, there are also major differences that Ahriman notes, such as how none of the runes of Wyrdmake are runes of power. It seems Wyrdmake does not seek out more power than he naturally owns.

[KarkassBC]

Alpha Legion did have a psyker, he showed up in The Serpent Beneath, although I'm unsure whether they just reinstated marines psykers, previously though they used non marine psykers.

 

Alpha Legion used a lot the psykers. Before the Edict they had a formal Librarian structure.

 

In "The Serpent Beneath" Ursinus Echion was called Librarian by Omegon. Also he spoke about his previous master, the Chief Librarian (without giving the real name).

In his words "the Librarius was formally disbanded, but for the requirements of specific missions and assignments" lead to suppose the following logic sequence:

Alpha Legion had a Librarian detachment; the AL followed the Emperor Edict; the Primarchs allowed the use of psyker's power for special missions (so a marine couldn't use his powers except with an authorization from above).

 

In "Deliverance Lost" the Alpha Legions infiltrators received mind shield powers to avoid being detected as doppelganger.

 

Of course the Alpha Legion sided with Horus and those events happened after the start of the Heresy... the librarian for the traitor side come back very soon, when Horus gave the signal to launch to ciclotronic torpedos against Istvaan III and "let the Galaxy burn"...

[Phoros]

The first new-style WD had a picture of a WE Librarian converted from Severin Loth, so I think that we can say that they had one.

[Kol Saresk]

So in essence, until something comes out that says the Rune Priests were specifically excluded when the Emperor said Librarian, we have to fall back on the only certain usage of the word, which is the 40k equivalent that is used as a catch-all phrase for all Astartes psykers who are loyal to the Imperium.

 

No.

 

 

Until we get clarification we have two entirely plausible avenues. You keep ascetaining we have only one because you say the definition is as you say and "all agree" except the wolves.

 

But I would offer based on Avon's excellent and far more definitive and logical reasoning that until someone shows where Rune Priest WERE meant to be included we are fine... :yes:.

What I want to know is the answer to this dilemma that trouble me a lot:

 

Why the Rune Seers didn't provide services to the Death Guards psykers as different instructors than the Librarium? The Death Guards students, thanks to their blessed Primarch, were not tainted by the foul teaching of Magnus about the Warp... Why the Rune Seers didin't provide help and wisdom to a true friend of Russ?

 

My erroneus and faulty answer is that Mortarion considered the Rune Seers guilty of psy-taint as the Thousand Sons. Please enlight me and show the errors in my thoughts.

 

How can Russ teach dirty psykers to channel the pure spirit of Fenris? Like I said, it's much more likely that Russ completely 100% believes that Rune Priests are not psykers, so it doesn't even enter his mind that its a skill that CAN be taught to psykers. It would be like asking him "Hey Russ, can you have your Techmarines teach marines in my legion to be Apothecaries?" Well.. sure, maybe they can, if they went and learned how to be Apothecaries to. But in his mind it just doesn't make sense that way. Rune Priests aren't psykers, and there's no reason to teach psykers anything.

Huh. Okay. Apparently I didn't get out of it what you did.

 

Unless you're talking about his first post? Where a couple of posts later, me and him reached a ceasefire that until something comes out that defines what the Emperor means by Librarians, as you pointed out, there are two equally plausible routes, but that was before I found the quotes saying that the Thousand Sons Librarians(in this specific case a Captain Uthizzar) were sent only to the Legions that gave them permission to come so a Librarius department could be formed within that Legion. And to a Space Marine, just how long "short" is becomes relative as well so we can't say "There wasn't enough time." When we don't even know how much time it takes. We don't even know if the man left of his own free will or if the Wolves kicked him out. Just that it was "Short" and that "The Wolves aren't fond of outsiders." That's all we can take from his account. And this actually does give credence to the theory that the Rune Priests are included since there is evidence that gives, no matter how weak, a connection between the Rune Priests and the Librarius Program.

 

EDIT: On the note of Alpha Legion Librarians, I beilieve it is in Deliverance Lost where an Alpharius says that they had never disbanded their Librarians because they knew they could be used for a variety of purposes on the battlefield as well as infiltration programs.

[KarkassBC]

The first new-style WD had a picture of a WE Librarian converted from Severin Loth, so I think that we can say that they had one.

 

In the lore the World Eaters had Librarian. They killed them when Angron dedicated his life and soul to Khorne. That moment could be anytime after Istvaan III, but don't give clue to a possible temporary period of reintroduction of the Librarius detachment inside the Legion.

 

Probably this time Angron followed literally the Emperor's Decree... he took steps to be sure they will never employ psychic powers in the future... he cut their heads to be sure...

[Kol Saresk]

For some reason I remembered something saying the World Eaters killed their Librarians as a sacrifice to Khorne. If that's true, then I imagine it would be after Istvaan III as he is still just a bloodthristy individual at that point and not on his way to becoming a Daemon Primarch. Quite yet.

[Anaraion]

Huh. Okay. Apparently I didn't get out of it what you did.

 

Yes you seem to miss many points not in line with your agenda.

 

Like the part right above where Avon is still convinced (like I am) that Russ just does not see Rune Priests=Librarians or ZAChos discuss how Russ clearly disagreed with Magnus that Rune Priests were anything like Librarians.

 

So if Russ does not see Rune Priests equal to Librarians then until he gets told explicitly... why should he heed the Nikean Edict?

 

You think Russ is knowingly disregarding the Edict but an alternate plausible answer is that he believes it does not apply to him. He clearly shows that in the discussion with Magnus. In addition the Sisters and Custodes went to battle with the Rout and clearly no one told him he was in error. So until you show us where explicitly Russ was told Librarians=Rune Priests you are in violation of the Edict...

 

It is a sound alternative theory and no more credible than my theory because both currently fit the facts while the rest of my argument and your argument are nothing but conjecture.

 

Importantly for me Russ does not agree with your theory and until someone finds explicit clarification Russ is knowingly violating the law, it is exactly like a point of law where two opinions are valid until the judge (or Big E in this case) makes a clear ruling.

[Kol Saresk]

What I want to know is the answer to this dilemma that trouble me a lot:

 

Why the Rune Seers didn't provide services to the Death Guards psykers as different instructors than the Librarium? The Death Guards students, thanks to their blessed Primarch, were not tainted by the foul teaching of Magnus about the Warp... Why the Rune Seers didin't provide help and wisdom to a true friend of Russ?

 

My erroneus and faulty answer is that Mortarion considered the Rune Seers guilty of psy-taint as the Thousand Sons. Please enlight me and show the errors in my thoughts.

 

How can Russ teach dirty psykers to channel the pure spirit of Fenris? Like I said, it's much more likely that Russ completely 100% believes that Rune Priests are not psykers, so it doesn't even enter his mind that its a skill that CAN be taught to psykers. It would be like asking him "Hey Russ, can you have your Techmarines teach marines in my legion to be Apothecaries?" Well.. sure, maybe they can, if they went and learned how to be Apothecaries to. But in his mind it just doesn't make sense that way. Rune Priests aren't psykers, and there's no reason to teach psykers anything.

Actually I was talking about Avon's most recent post, which is what I thought you were referring to. That's why I had it right above where my comment's started and right below your quoted post. And this post is a little different form his first post as the first post said the two things were radically different beasts and this one says that Russ believed them to be two different beasts. There's a good portion of the 5th page devoted to just me and him going back and forth over it before we reached a standstill. Although in your first post(on this page) you give an impression in line with his first post. ;)

 

But as you said, both are valid points although the tidbit does point to a connection between the two parties, which until yesterday that connection didn't even exist. Well it did but it didn't but it did but it didn't... Oh you know what I mean. I am willing to agree to a standstill, like I did with Avon, rather than a "No, You're wrong. Rune Priests are something totally different even if there is a connection." that some people were giving out. I feel weird now because I was the first one to point out that until the Big E says something we're stuck at a standstill........

 

EDIT: Spelling and stuff.

[Avon Rekaes]

We don't even know if the man left of his own free will or if the Wolves kicked him out. Just that it was "Short" and that "The Wolves aren't fond of outsiders." That's all we can take from his account. And this actually does give credence to the theory that the Rune Priests are included since there is evidence that gives, no matter how weak, a connection between the Rune Priests and the Librarius Program.

 

That's your interpretation.

 

Given the character of the Space Wolves legion as a whole, and the Thousand Sons, it can also be entirely valid to interpret it the exact opposite way you did.

 

Russ believes Rune Priests Are Not Psykers. It's not a decision he made, it's just a fact to him. You don't decide "I have two eyes", you just have them, no one needs to tell you. He invited the Thousand Sons guy to participate in inter-legion cross training, most likely before the whole Great Library incident (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

So we have this one lone 1k Sons guy go try to teach the Wolves sorcery. And what does he get out of the experience? A shortened stay and "they aren't fond of outsiders".

 

How much of a cold shoulder do you think this one sorcerer got when the Rune Priests he was sent to train became deeply and morally offended?

 

"What do you mean our powers come from the warp. They are born of the spirit of Fenris!"

 

"Uhm, well, actually they're not. You see, this spirit you claim to draw power fro-"

 

"CLAIM?! THIS IS THE TRUTH!"

 

"Well, yes, but, it's not actually a world-spirit, it's most likely a warp-born ent-"

 

"DO NOT DISHONOR THE PURE NOBLE SPIRIT OF OUR HOMEWORLD!"

 

"Oh boy..."

 

Whether he was kicked out, or he left early on his own, the most likely interpretation that I can see is that it was because the Space Wolves refused to be taught anything by him.

 

And this post is a little different form his first post as the first post said the two things were radically different beasts and this one says that Russ believed them to be two different beasts.

 

Oh, I don't believe they're different beasts. I know they're both psykers. The point I was making wasn't wether Russ believed them to be different. He always did, in my mind. The question isn't even wether the Emperor believed they were different things. The question, in my mind, was wether the Emperor felt there was a significant difference in their methods.

 

The Emperor to me sees value in ignorance and deception. He tried to keep the entire human race from knowing about the Warp. He proclaimed a policy of the Imperial Truth, and it was based on a lie, that there was no spiritual component to the universe when he knew there was. He sees the Rune Priests and Russ decieve themselves and practice psyker talent in ignorance, and he may or may not have come to the conclusion that this ignorance was their armor. That the way in which they evoke this world-spirit was a buffer against daemon possession and warp influence. That's a viewpoint I can entirely see as within the Big E's character.

 

Interesting question, one in which I honestly don't know the answer to, but has there ever been any fluff or story written in which a Rune Priest falls to chaos because of daemonic mental influence?