When Did librarians come back?

[Kol Saresk]

Okay double post is somewhat necessary as I hate going back into editing older posts because someone could be using it as a reference and I don't want to try and cut it out from under them by having a post here that is different from the post quoted.

 

In essence, what it comes down to is, like you said Anarion, are the Rune Priests included? Some say no some say yes. The biggest argument for "No" has been, other than Russ believing so, is that there was no connection between the Rune Priests and the Librarius program developed by Magnus, Sanguinius and the Khan. Yesterday it was "rediscovered"(seems like the best word to use) that there is actually the possibility of a connection as it says that instructors from the Thousand Sons(more specifically the Warrior-Scholars) were sent out to the other Legions to form Librarius departments, but only in the Legions that gave them permission to come. Now, nothing is given on the nature on how a Librarius is formed. It could have simply been "Here's an instruction manual. I will supervise until you reach page 23, however long that may take." We also know that a Thousand Son, who is a captain and a member of one the orders from Prospero, the Atheneans I believe, it certainly gives credence to the theory that there is a connection between the two. Which would say that it is very likely that they were included in the statement as there is the connection they were, no matter how loosely, a part of the Librarius program.

 

The other strongpoint was "Rune Priests don't hold the same titles as Librarians." I have a post towards the bottom of page 6 I believe where I sort of ramble about the different ranks and titles that were conclusively connected to the Librarian title and how not all of the Legions that were confirmed to be connected, shared the same ranking system(i.e. The Thousand Sons and their ranks that were reminiscent of Aleister Crowley's Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, White Scars' Stormseers and the Dark Angels use of the "modern" ranks). Due to the variety of ranks and titles associated with the office of "Librarian", especially with at least one of the titles taking the former's place, simply saying the different titles doesn't work as well either since now you have to prove an exclusion of the title "Rune Priest" from the Librarian ranking system. Also, this is where my comment about the modern use of Librarian as a catch-all for all Astartes psykers to be used comes in. Notice the ranks. The rank Codicier is the Codex rank for a medium-ranking Librarian if IIRC in 40k. It has a similar use in the Dark Angels during the Crusade. Which does give the possibility of "Librarians" having the same catch-all meaning in 30k as it did in 40k. So technically I was wrong for saying that we had to rely on that definition, but it is the only true definition that we have. And when a word in two time periods is used to reference the same, if not similar things, it is very rare that the "newer" definition is different from the "older" definition.

 

But as you, Avon and myself have said, until something more definitive is published by either GW, BL or FW, both the statements "Nothing directly states the Rune Priests were included so they are fine." as well as its inverse "Nothing says they weren't included so they're wrong." are true.

[Kol Saresk]

Well crud now I actually do have to double post. Thought I lucked out for a second. Yes you are right. And yes, so am I. Like I said up above, until one statement is proven to be definitively right, both that statement and its inverse are true. So it could be as you said, the "short stay" was only long enough for the Wolves to kick him out. Or it could be as I said, they just gave them an instruction manual that said "Here are some training regimes and an example of a ranking system." A Codex Astartes for Librarians that each Legion was supposed to read. But like the ruling, until something definitive comes out, we are both right. And wrong. And somewhere in between. I hate physics.

[Avon Rekaes]

Schrodinger's Nikean Edict. It both applies and doesn't apply to Rune Priests at the same time.

 

My head hurts. :lol:

 

To clarify, I never saw "they aren't called Librarians" as a valid arguement. Thats why I don't see a discrepancy with Storm Seers being sanctioned and Rune Priests not. In the fluff, it's established fact that Khan's psykers and Magnus's psykers worked together to form this inter-legion program. What's established about 1k Sons influence on Rune Priests, however, is that the Wolves didn't like their instructor much and he shortened his mission with them.

 

The name matters not because of the name itself, but what the name means. There's a little bit of confusion about cause and effect.

 

We say it only applies to "Librarians", not because the word spelled l-i-b-r-a-r-i-a-n-s is nogoodbadbad and needs to be sanctioned, but because "Librarian" in this context means "belonging to an inter-legion organization of Psykers who practice techniques influenced or outright created by the Thousand Son's methods of sorcery". Did Stormseers fit in this definition of "Librarian"? They belonged to and helped create this organization. So, yes, definately they do. There's no disputing that.

 

Do Rune Priests? ....Schrodinger's Fluff.

 

This is also why I feel current-day Librarians may still be exempt from the Edict. They call still be called "Librarians", because the definition of "Librarian" could have been changed. In 30k, "Librarian" meant "belonging to an inter-legion organization of Psykers who practice techniques influenced or outright created by the Thousand Son's methods of sorcery". In 40k, it could mean "an astartes warrior with psychic talents who's authority, rank, and responsibilities to a Space Marine Chapter are dictated by the Codex Astartes penned by Robute Guilliman."

 

Same word, different definition. Modern astartes psykers couldn't possibly belong to the inter-legion program "tainted" by 1k Sons knowledge and methods, because of obvious reasons. So there wouldn't need to be an edict, or Robute decided to interpret the edict as only applying to former members of the original Librarius Department. The fact that their ranks are the same doesn't mean anything either, as the Robute could have just used the original Librarius Department's ranks, changing their definitions just like he did "Librarian".

[Kol Saresk]

I think it is safe to say that we have reached an agreement.

[Avon Rekaes]

Great!

 

So... back on topic! When did Librarians become official again?

 

My feeling is that it happened after the Emperor was mortally wounded. Librarians were put back into service almost immediately in some cases, like the Dark Angels, but it was only made official by Robute Guilliman's Codex Astartes.

 

Whether anyone actually followed the Edict and refused former Librarius Department librarians entry into the new chapter-based Codex Librariums, is another story. I do not think they all waited patiently for a new generation of psykers.

[KarkassBC]

I think it is safe to say that we have reached an agreement.

 

Perfect. This thread started to go too much long.

 

Maybe we can find the answer for the main question "when did the Librarians come back?" in the future book "Unremembered Empire". Blood Angels and Ultramarines used a lot the psykers. I think that Guilliman and Sanguinius would spoke a lot about the previous events happened to their Legions and without the possibility to reach Terra I think one of the decisions taken is the formal reintroduction of the Librarian.

 

More to consider is the Thousand Sons, the reason for the Nikaea Decree, appeared on the Horus side only during the Siege of Terra (except for an image of Magnus in the traitor council after Istvaan V, but I don't think that image was broadcasted through every astropath in the galaxy).

[Kol Saresk]

It was definitely after Istvaan V, no doubt about that. But whether or not it was before or after the Siege of Terra, only BL, or FW, will tell.

 

At the very least, it was "official" when Gulliman helped rebuild the Imperium I would imagine.

 

As for it happening before the Siege, I would think that with the webway on Terra breached thanks to Magnus, it would take more than Custodians and Sisters of Silence to fight off the daemons. So it is very possible that at one point after the events in Burden of Duty but before the Siege, it is very plausible that the Emperor said "Screw this. Dorn, give me your psykers." and used them to do the "dirty deeds done dirt cheap" so he could focus on actually sealing the webway rather than just containing what was coming out.

[Anaraion]

Well crud now I actually do have to double post. Thought I lucked out for a second. Yes you are right. And yes, so am I. Like I said up above, until one statement is proven to be definitively right, both that statement and its inverse are true. So it could be as you said, the "short stay" was only long enough for the Wolves to kick him out. Or it could be as I said, they just gave them an instruction manual that said "Here are some training regimes and an example of a ranking system." A Codex Astartes for Librarians that each Legion was supposed to read. But like the ruling, until something definitive comes out, we are both right. And wrong. And somewhere in between. I hate physics.

 

And I love physics :)!!

 

But I will tell you I learned quite a bit in all this so thank you. Also to help you feel even better I will bet that this must be the first internet thread ever that ended not in a flame war and with knowledge shared :).

[Grimtooth]

So in essence, until something comes out that says the Rune Priests were specifically excluded when the Emperor said Librarian, we have to fall back on the only certain usage of the word, which is the 40k equivalent that is used as a catch-all phrase for all Astartes psykers who are loyal to the Imperium.

 

No.

 

 

Until we get clarification we have two entirely plausible avenues. You keep ascetaining we have only one because you say the definition is as you say and "all agree" except the wolves.

 

But I would offer based on Avon's excellent and far more definitive and logical reasoning that until someone shows where Rune Priest WERE meant to be included we are fine... :P.

What I want to know is the answer to this dilemma that trouble me a lot:

 

Why the Rune Seers didn't provide services to the Death Guards psykers as different instructors than the Librarium? The Death Guards students, thanks to their blessed Primarch, were not tainted by the foul teaching of Magnus about the Warp... Why the Rune Seers didin't provide help and wisdom to a true friend of Russ?

 

My erroneus and faulty answer is that Mortarion considered the Rune Seers guilty of psy-taint as the Thousand Sons. Please enlight me and show the errors in my thoughts.

 

How can Russ teach dirty psykers to channel the pure spirit of Fenris? Like I said, it's much more likely that Russ completely 100% believes that Rune Priests are not psykers, so it doesn't even enter his mind that its a skill that CAN be taught to psykers. It would be like asking him "Hey Russ, can you have your Techmarines teach marines in my legion to be Apothecaries?" Well.. sure, maybe they can, if they went and learned how to be Apothecaries to. But in his mind it just doesn't make sense that way. Rune Priests aren't psykers, and there's no reason to teach psykers anything.

Huh. Okay. Apparently I didn't get out of it what you did.

 

Unless you're talking about his first post? Where a couple of posts later, me and him reached a ceasefire that until something comes out that defines what the Emperor means by Librarians, as you pointed out, there are two equally plausible routes, but that was before I found the quotes saying that the Thousand Sons Librarians(in this specific case a Captain Uthizzar) were sent only to the Legions that gave them permission to come so a Librarius department could be formed within that Legion. And to a Space Marine, just how long "short" is becomes relative as well so we can't say "There wasn't enough time." When we don't even know how much time it takes. We don't even know if the man left of his own free will or if the Wolves kicked him out. Just that it was "Short" and that "The Wolves aren't fond of outsiders." That's all we can take from his account. And this actually does give credence to the theory that the Rune Priests are included since there is evidence that gives, no matter how weak, a connection between the Rune Priests and the Librarius Program.

 

EDIT: On the note of Alpha Legion Librarians, I beilieve it is in Deliverance Lost where an Alpharius says that they had never disbanded their Librarians because they knew they could be used for a variety of purposes on the battlefield as well as infiltration programs.

 

Kol, you are the most despicable of types when it comes to debating a topic! You have posted up this page 100 crap from A Thousand Sons and left it hanging out there as the connection to bring rune priests and librarians into the fold. You dangle that link to all those in this thread and those not well versed in the book just accept it as fact. However, the cretin that you are leave out the context and exact explanation give in A Thousand Sons because it destroys your feeble connection.

 

You cite page 100 regarding Captain Uthizzar's time spent with the Wolves as the link you need for your argument to hold water. Yet on pages 101, 102, and 103 it is explained exactly what I mentioned earlier that you tried to misdirect;

 

Starting with the last paragraph of page 101;

 

"As part of their training, all Captains of Fellowship undertook a secondment to another Legion to learn its ways and to further the Thousand Sons' understanding of the galaxy:"

 

It then goes on to detail who served where and with which Legion. We then get to Uthizzar,

 

"Uthizzar's secondment had been amongst the shortest ever served, lasting a little less then a Terran year."

 

So you bring up Uthizzar going to the Wolves, completely disregard that the book tells you exactly what it was for, "a secondment", exactly what it was for, "to learns its ways and further the Thousand Sons' understanding of the galaxy", and instead float a lie out there of your own creation.

 

You have zero integrity and your bias in not showing all the facts of this point taint all your further posts with the same brush.

[KarkassBC]

Kol, you are the most despicable of types when it comes to debating a topic! You have posted up this page 100 crap from A Thousand Sons and left it hanging out there as the connection to bring rune priests and librarians into the fold. You dangle that link to all those in this thread and those not well versed in the book just accept it as fact. However, the cretin that you are leave out the context and exact explanation give in A Thousand Sons because it destroys your feeble connection.

 

Everyone has an opinion on the topic (maybe subtopic). Everyone use some points to show the personal position and reach a reasonable outcome.

There is no need to use words like yours.

 

For me Rune Priests and Librarian are the same but I accepted the current idea that Russ deeply believe they are completely different.

 

You cite page 100 regarding Captain Uthizzar's time spent with the Wolves as the link you need for your argument to hold water. Yet on pages 101, 102, and 103 it is explained exactly what I mentioned earlier that you tried to misdirect;

 

Starting with the last paragraph of page 101;

 

"As part of their training, all Captains of Fellowship undertook a secondment to another Legion to learn its ways and to further the Thousand Sons' understanding of the galaxy:"

 

It then goes on to detail who served where and with which Legion. We then get to Uthizzar,

 

"Uthizzar's secondment had been amongst the shortest ever served, lasting a little less then a Terran year."

 

So you bring up Uthizzar going to the Wolves, completely disregard that the book tells you exactly what it was for, "a secondment", exactly what it was for, "to learns its ways and further the Thousand Sons' understanding of the galaxy", and instead float a lie out there of your own creation.

 

You have zero integrity and your bias in not showing all the facts of this point taint all your further posts with the same brush.

 

The situation is already explained by Avon Rekaes. Uthizzar simply wasted his time trying to show something to the Rune Priests.

But it's true that Uthizzar was accepted between the Space Wolves otherwise he wouldn't have appeared amongst them. Only his actions were unseccessful.

 

If you disagree with him, you can simply point out your different opinion, saying "I disagree for that and that"...

[Billuriye]

Kol, you are the most despicable of types when it comes to debating a topic!

You have zero integrity and your bias in not showing all the facts of this point taint all your further posts with the same brush.

 

You should get a hold of yourself. Being deliberately obtuse about facts and distorting stuff to your own fanboyish bias is one thing, insulting others is another.

[Grimtooth]

Kol, you are the most despicable of types when it comes to debating a topic! You have posted up this page 100 crap from A Thousand Sons and left it hanging out there as the connection to bring rune priests and librarians into the fold. You dangle that link to all those in this thread and those not well versed in the book just accept it as fact. However, the cretin that you are leave out the context and exact explanation give in A Thousand Sons because it destroys your feeble connection.

 

Everyone has an opinion on the topic (maybe subtopic). Everyone use some points to show the personal position and reach a reasonable outcome.

There is no need to use words like yours.

 

For me Rune Priests and Librarian are the same but I accepted the current idea that Russ deeply believe they are completely different.

 

You cite page 100 regarding Captain Uthizzar's time spent with the Wolves as the link you need for your argument to hold water. Yet on pages 101, 102, and 103 it is explained exactly what I mentioned earlier that you tried to misdirect;

 

Starting with the last paragraph of page 101;

 

"As part of their training, all Captains of Fellowship undertook a secondment to another Legion to learn its ways and to further the Thousand Sons' understanding of the galaxy:"

 

It then goes on to detail who served where and with which Legion. We then get to Uthizzar,

 

"Uthizzar's secondment had been amongst the shortest ever served, lasting a little less then a Terran year."

 

So you bring up Uthizzar going to the Wolves, completely disregard that the book tells you exactly what it was for, "a secondment", exactly what it was for, "to learns its ways and further the Thousand Sons' understanding of the galaxy", and instead float a lie out there of your own creation.

 

You have zero integrity and your bias in not showing all the facts of this point taint all your further posts with the same brush.

 

The situation is already explained by Avon Rekaes. Uthizzar simply wasted his time trying to show something to the Rune Priests.

But it's true that Uthizzar was accepted between the Space Wolves otherwise he wouldn't have appeared amongst them. Only his actions were unseccessful.

 

If you disagree with him, you can simply point out your different opinion, saying "I disagree for that and that"...

 

No Kar, that is not what he did. He was not putting forth an opinion, he was putting forth a theory based on omitting information and then trying to pass it off as fact. He was trying to convince people of a connection that does not exist and now even you are putting forth that Uthizzar was sent to the Wolves to form a Librarium when it is 100% debunked by the book. He is lying by omission of the facts and garnering support of his argument through omission of said facts.

 

Uthizzar was NOT sent to the Wolves to form a Librarium, his was sent to the Wolves as part of HIS training as a Captain of the Fellowship. It was his "secondment" of which he was sent to "learn their ways and further the Thousands Sons knowledge of the galaxy"

 

You cannot make an excuse for clearly trying to mislead an audience by omitting the facts which is exactly what Kol was attempting to do and continued to do.

[Grimtooth]

Kol, you are the most despicable of types when it comes to debating a topic!

You have zero integrity and your bias in not showing all the facts of this point taint all your further posts with the same brush.

 

You should get a hold of yourself. Being deliberately obtuse about facts and distorting stuff to your own fanboyish bias is one thing, insulting others is another.

 

Rrally?

 

In the course of a discussion, you can present your points based on fact or you can lie. Kol chose to lie which is disrespectful to not only the people that are against his opinion, but also disengenous to those that are not fully versed in the subject matter. He was attempting to garner bandwagon support for his supposed "new and fresh" revelation by the omission of the facts as presented by the very book in question.

 

Furthermore when I responded to his initial presentation of this false revelation that it was a matter of cross training between the Legions he dismiessed it while knowing that I was 100% right as supported by the explanation of why Uthizzar was with the Wolves in the firt place. Not only did he knowingly lie about the reason Uthizzar was with the Wolves, he took it even one step further by trying to discount the facts I presented about the real reason Uthizzar was with the Wolves. He doubled down on his falsehood hoping to persuade others not as well versed in the material at hand.

[Avon Rekaes]

Oi, and we thought we avoided the flames...

 

Brother Ramses you very much need to calm down.

 

I'd report your posts for flaming, but there's some intelligent debate going on here and I don't want to unnecessarily lock this thread.

 

Suffice to say, there's no call to make personal attacks.

 

Given his amiable attitude to my differign viewpoints, "Kor made a reference, and he forgot the rest of it." is a more rational explaination than "Kor is deliberately trying to decieve us."

 

...

 

That said, yes, if your additional quotes are acurate, then there is 100% no evidence of Librarians teaching Rune Priests their methods. To clarify your statements, (which you should always try to do instead of repeating them verbatim), the quote

 

As part of their training, all Captains of Fellowship undertook a secondment to another Legion to learn its ways and to further the Thousand Sons' understanding of the galaxy

 

Indicates that it was the Space Wolves teaching the visiting Thousand Son's marine, and not the other way around.

 

Can we all agree on that without devolving into personal attacks and flames?

 

Also, one more thing....

 

Furthermore when I responded to his initial presentation of this false revelation that it was a matter of cross training between the Legions he dismiessed it

 

He dismissed it precisely because of your poor attitude.

 

Don't believe me? Go back and read how he responded to my points, where I talk to him like a human being, and yours.

[Grimtooth]

Actually he never says a specific reason as to why he was sent. But then again, the point to the Librarian program was to cross-train, but only if the Primarch from the other Legiob allowed him to come.

 

Also, he himself does not voice any sentiments, gratitude or otherwise, about his short tour. All he said was "They are... Not fond of outsiders." The only possible sogn of emotion is that Uthizzar spoke "softly", which can be interpreted as many ways as a bang on the Fourth of July in Southwest Tennessee, no offense to anyone from that neck of the woods.

 

Actually Avon, this is his response.

 

After I point out that it is a matter of cross training, as supported by the book, he goes on to say that Ulthizzar never says why he was sent, but the explanation is given on the very same page he chooses to quote Ulthizzar. He quotes Ulthizzar and leaves the interpretation of why Ulthizzar was present with the Wolves and even inserting that the reason why was to form a Librarium when the very specific reason Ulthizzar is with the Wolves is given in pretty much the very next paragraph or two.

 

He then not only doubles down on it, but makes it part of all his posts from then on as fact. Not opinion or theory, but as fact despite what is presented in the book. Karak even adopts it in his response to my post despite what I presented, not as opinion but as verbatim from the book.

 

It is one thing to have a heated debate in which all parties partake in a display of the opinions based on interpretation of the facts as presented. To purposely omit the facts as written to propose a completely unfounded theory and the pass it off as fact cheapens the debate. And as I pointed out, you are being disengous to those that are not as well versed in the subject matter and may be drawing a conclusion based upon a completely false premise. That is the issue I now have with Kol.

[MadDoc]

In all of this slightly OT "Rune Priests are special flowers/no they're not" palaver I have yet to see anybody mention the most poignant bit of evidence we have thus far regarding Rune Priests and their powers, in Fear To Tread we have the Wolf Lord (Captain) Redknife telling his Rune Priest to be careful that the BA don't notice that he is still employing his powers as he isn't supposed to be using them anymore either...

 

But hey lets not muddy things by using facts that disagree with our position. :)

 

I am in no doubts that this will fall completely on deaf ears with some...

[Avon Rekaes]

In all of this slightly OT "Rune Priests are special flowers/no they're not" palaver I have yet to see anybody mention the most poignant bit of evidence we have thus far regarding Rune Priests and their powers, in Fear To Tread we have the Wolf Lord (Captain) Redknife telling his Rune Priest to be careful that the BA don't notice that he is still employing his powers as he isn't supposed to be using them anymore either...

 

But hey lets not muddy things by using facts that disagree with our position. ;)

 

I am in no doubts that this will fall completely on deaf ears with some...

 

Sorry, MadDoc, I didn't mean to ignore this point earlier in the thread, I must have inadvertantly skipped over it. Can you supply a direct passage of Redknife telling his Rune Priest to hide his abilities? I have not read Fear To Tread, and I am curious about the actual wording used.

[EzekyleVIII]

in response to the main question and having gone through 8 pages my answer be this.. in broad spectrum terms librarians didnt go anywhere, they were politely asked to behave by the allmighty emperor himself, the space wolves had incredibly good lawyers and found the loopholes, and some legions were incredibly naughty and used them anyway either because they had too through necessity or because they said stuff you emperor were with this guy.. this guy being horus

[Avon Rekaes]

Actually Avon, this is his response.

 

I'm saying that he felt no pressing need to go back and check his facts when met with a brazen troll such as yourself hurling personal insults. I wouldn't go back and fact-check if you started insulting me either.

 

You've made your point. I listened and agreed with it, while disagreeing with your attitude and tone. Now let it go.

[MadDoc]

Sorry, MadDoc, I didn't mean to ignore this point earlier in the thread, I must have inadvertantly skipped over it. Can you supply a direct passage of Redknife telling his Rune Priest to hide his abilities? I have not read Fear To Tread, and I am curious about the actual wording used.

No worries. I'm away from my books at the moment, but I'll post it later today/tonight when I get home.

[Grimtooth]

Actually Avon, this is his response.

 

I'm saying that he felt no pressing need to go back and check his facts when met with a brazen troll such as yourself hurling personal insults. I wouldn't go back and fact-check if you started insulting me either.

 

You've made your point. I listened and agreed with it, while disagreeing with your attitude and tone. Now let it go.

 

So why would be his excuse for not fact checking when met with your Mr. Polite conversationalist tone? In fact, despite your polite tone, he continued to perpetuate the false premise that Ultihizzar was sent to the Wolves to form a Librarium against your points as well.

 

It is one thing to propose a far fecthed theory based upon an interpretation of what you are presented with but far different to just outright lie about the facts, perpetuate the lie even futher, and then knowingly propose the lie as conclusive evidence to your argument. One could be classed as being wildly imaginative, while the other is just being decietful.

 

But by all means, keep being polite since it has gotten you a truthful response from Kol so far. :lol:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

[MadDoc]

It is one thing to propose a far fecthed theory based upon an interpretation of what you are presented with but far different to just outright lie about the facts, perpetuate the lie even futher, and then knowingly propose the lie as conclusive evidence to your argument. One could be classed as being wildly imaginative, while the other is just being decietful.

Given your repeated presentation of only selected facts as the totality of evidence, perhaps thats something you should think more on...

[Kol Saresk]

Actually Avon, this is his response.

 

I'm saying that he felt no pressing need to go back and check his facts when met with a brazen troll such as yourself hurling personal insults. I wouldn't go back and fact-check if you started insulting me either.

 

You've made your point. I listened and agreed with it, while disagreeing with your attitude and tone. Now let it go.

 

So why would be his excuse for not fact checking when met with your Mr. Polite conversationalist tone? In fact, despite your polite tone, he continued to perpetuate the false premise that Ultihizzar was sent to the Wolves to form a Librarium against your points as well.

 

It is one thing to propose a far fecthed theory based upon an interpretation of what you are presented with but far different to just outright lie about the facts, perpetuate the lie even futher, and then knowingly propose the lie as conclusive evidence to your argument. One could be classed as being wildly imaginative, while the other is just being decietful.

 

But by all means, keep being polite since it has gotten you a truthful response from Kol so far. <_<

I think this is where I will start. One, you said something and did not provide a page. That is my fault as when I looked through, I was looking specifically at the Edict of Nikea portion of the book, and then looked at the beginning until I found the part where the aforementioned Thousand Son had been to Thousand Wolves. Since part of your argument was that he had cross-trained with the Space Wolves, I went "No duh, that's what he would have done if he went there to form a Librarius." However, I started to discount your opinion when you said that he was grateful about leaving the Space Wolves, when upon a further re-reading of the passage, less than five minutes ago, his emotional state about his leaving the Space Wolves was never given. Also, looking through the pages, by saying "On page 100" while I gave page 101 as the citation for Uthizzar, you are misleading people because you are giving the impression that the "connection that I was willfully deceiving people with" when in reality, I was skimming for something earlier in the book because until I went looking for Uthizzar, I had completely forgotten about him. I had forgotten most of the material in the Heresy books as I buy when they come out, now in paperback edition, and don't read them for quite a while until, like right now, I am hunting for quotes. I don't intentionally mislead people as you are suggesting while misquoting me, it was a simple matter of, I wanted to see the KSon who went to the SW Legion, started at the beginning of the book and went straight until I found him. Actually what I found first was Hathor Maat's statement "Vintage Space Wolves" and moved on from there. Am I wrong for not reading the entire passage and just stopping when I found what he said about his short experience with the Space Wolves? Yes, I will admit that as I now know that I am wrong for not reading far enough when I thought I had found what I was looking for. Are you wrong for lying and saying that I was lying this entire time? Yes.

 

And before you ask why it took so long to respond, there is this thing called school and there's a lot of lecture about electrical components right now so I can't exactly afford to be goofing off and surfing the web.

 

Now as Avon suggested way back near the top of page 8, can we please get back on topic since both parties agreed before this, that the Rune Priest vs Librarians is basically Schrodinger's cat?

[Augustus]

Fear to Tread tidbits

Not only do you break the simple rules of fleet protocol but you defy the Emperor's edict." " You know that psykers are no longer permitted within the legions"

 

This shows that others outside the spacewolves considered them psykers and that the Edict applied to the Legions

 

"My battle-brother Stiel is not a witch-mind, Blood Angel and he forgives you for your error. It is a common misconception"

 

"His power is pure. It comes from Fenris, as does mind

 

"Forgiveness, jarl. My Thoughts were disturbed by our passing into the ghost realm."

"Be sure our angelic hosts are not aware of that,' Redknife warned

 

Later, Stiel (Rune priests) encourages the Blood Angels former librarians to discuss with him their psychic "apprehensions"