When Did librarians come back?

[Avon Rekaes]

Fear to Tread tidbits

Not only do you break the simple rules of fleet protocol but you defy the Emperor's edict." " You know that psykers are no longer permitted within the legions"

 

This shows that others outside the spacewolves considered them psykers and that the Edict applied to the Legions

 

"My battle-brother Stiel is not a witch-mind, Blood Angel and he forgives you for your error. It is a common misconception"

 

"His power is pure. It comes from Fenris, as does mind

 

"Forgiveness, jarl. My Thoughts were disturbed by our passing into the ghost realm."

"Be sure our angelic hosts are not aware of that,' Redknife warned

 

Later, Stiel (Rune priests) encourages the Blood Angels former librarians to discuss with him their psychic "apprehensions"

 

 

Hi Augustus, welcome to the discussion. Thanks for supplying Fear to Tread quotes.

 

I'm not certain of the context of the quotes, so I can only say I didn't understand where the Rune Priest encourages Blood Angels former librarians to keep using their powers. What I read was Space Wolves genuinely and ardently believing that Rune Priests aren't psykers, even the Rune Priests themselves, but being magnanimous about the "confusion" of other legions "misinterpreting" their "spiritual" abilities. (Sarcasm quotes because I know full well that the other legions are correct and not confused.)

 

This would fit with my view that Russ and the Space Wolves genuinely believe that Rune Priests were not subject to the Nikean Edict, just the same as their Apothecaries and Techmarines weren't. However, the part where Redknife warns "Be sure our angelic hosts are not aware of that" seems to indicate... in my view, based on the context of the other quotes you supplied... that Redknife believes Rune Priests are not psykers, but knows that other legions think they are, and when confronted with flaunting it in former BA Librarians faces, he chooses not to throw it in their faces to avoid a problem.

 

Now, I've only seen those quotes out of the actual context of the novel, so it may come across completely different while reading.

[Augustus]

Ive been here for a few other posts :lol:

 

Stiel is meeting with Ecanus and Kano to discuss their anxiety they are feeling.

 

Stiel being there and not saying "Hey you cant use power now, you hear me?" is sort of condoning their powers

 

Ecanus declares it treason. "The unsactioned use of psychic powers is an act of treason"

[Grimtooth]

 

The first interaction we have between the Wolves and Blood Angels is when the Wolves suddenly make a rapid warp transit practically right upon the BA flotilla before they are about go into transit. The Wolves come aboard the ship and are met by Azkaellon, Sanguinary Guard Commander and second in authority only to Sanguinous. Just going to quote you the conversation;

 

"Captain Redknife. You should consider yourself fortunate that you were not burned from the sky. Such an arrival without warning is reckless. The gun crews of this task force remain on high alert, their weapons primed."

 

To which Redknife responds, "Fortune has little to do with it. And I have little time for matters of etiquette."

 

At this time Az notices a rune priest alongside Redknife armed with a force sword which led to the tidbit provided,

 

"I see that is so. Not only do you break the simple rules of fleet protocol, but you also defy the Emperor's edict. You know that psykers are no longer permitted within the Legiones Astartes."

 

Which leads to Redknife saying that Stiel (the rune priest) is not a "witch-mind" and that it is a "common misconception" to think of him as one. Az pushes again his point that the Decree of Nikaea forbade the use of psychic powers and that Redknife's "priest" (italicized in the book) should be returned to the rank and file.

 

Redknife cuts off a protest from Stiel and then puts forth to Az that Stiel's power is pure, that it comes from Fenris, "as does mine", referring to himself (Redknife), and that he will give no further explanation.

 

Now after this confrontation regarding the presence of the rune priest, Az pushes for their purpose to which Redknife produces authentic orders from the Sigilite, endorsed by Russ, that attach them to Sanguinous as, "observers".

 

That is the context of the first exchange.

 

The context of the second exchange takes place later in the Wolves berthing area as provided by the BA when Redknife is calling to a distracted Stiel. Stiel responds to Redknife with the quote given,

 

"Forgiveness jarl. My thoughts were disturbed by our passing into the ghost-realm"

 

Obviously referring to the BA flotilla making warp transit as previously mentioned. It is to this that Redknife responds with the warning of,

 

"Be sure our angelic hosts are not aware of that. The black-armoured one watches you for withery."

 

The "black-armoured one" being a reference to BA chaplain (Warden Annellus) that had previously questioned a former BA librarian that appeared to almost use some psychic powers while fighting an unctrolled psyker.

 

The context of the last exchange references an encounter when one former BA librarian seeks out another former BA librarian to speak of a disturbing vision and talk of all the disturbing things that have happened in the Signus Cluster since their arrival. They are surprised by the sudden appearance of Stiel who reaffirms to them that "a dark power" is at work in the Signus Cluster and that they all must act upon their premonitions of what is going on around them or when darkness falls, it will split the BA house.

 

 

Context is everything.

 

Stiel was in full view of the Sanguinary Guard Commander, armed with a force weapon. When questioned about it, the SW jarl responds dismissively to the edict because it is their belief it doesn't apply. When pressed on the issue, the "power from Fenris" explanation is given with none further to be offered.

 

Redknife cautions Stiel in regard to the BA chaplain observing him for "withchery" when it comes to being disturbed by tranistion into the warp, not what Maddoc previously stated as,

 

"...in Fear To Tread we have the Wolf Lord (Captain) Redknife telling his Rune Priest to be careful that the BA don't notice that he is still employing his powers as he isn't supposed to be using them anymore either..."

 

Lastly, it was one former BA librarian seeking out another former BA librarian to discuss a disturbing vision, not Stiel meeting with former BA librarians to flaunt his power or puch them to commit treason. He surpises them with his appearance and only reaffirms their suspisions that something is dreadfully wrong with the Signus Cluster activity and that they must act in unity or that the BA house will fall.

[KarkassBC]

Context is everything.

 

Stiel was in full view of the Sanguinary Guard Commander, armed with a force weapon. When questioned about it, the SW jarl responds dismissively to the edict because it is their belief it doesn't apply. When pressed on the issue, the "power from Fenris" explanation is given with none further to be offered.

 

I choose the best part of your answer to reply in order to keep the thread lower.

 

In my personal view I can deeply think and give meaning to a thing or actions but what is important is the world's view or the common view about it.

Whatever I think about an action is also extremely important the opinion of others.

 

I make a comparison with a positive figure: Robin Hood. He attacked a group of soldiers belonging to the Sheriff of Nottingham and stoled/retrieve the tributes of the local villagers. Robin Hood and his group think about this action as a "redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor" while the King and the Sheriff considered it as a theft/robbery.

 

Those are opposing views to the same act. One think is authorized by virtue to do that, the other considered through the Law as an illegal act.

 

I think we have the same scenario in the story "Good Space Wolves Rune Priest vs Ignorant World View".

 

In my humble opinion saying that "their powers are pure" not give any reason. But I consider more the opinion of the Blood Angels on that ship. They considered the Rune Priest as a violation of the Edict and belonging to the entourage of the Primarch they would know more about the matter than a common soldier.

 

So we have a neutral third party opinion (the Blood Angels) against one of the oppsoing front at Nikaea (WS pure vs TS sorcerers). For me this story is important and we cannot send away only with the words of Redknife "it's a common misconception"...(Othere Wyrdmake made the same "external effects" during his psychic attacks as Ahriman and the TS on Aghoru during the battle with the two Titans and against the warp entity inside the mountain)

[MadDoc]

Context is everything.

It is. Pity that what you gave wasn't the actual context, but rather a quite skewed version of events...

 

Redknife cautions Stiel in regard to the BA chaplain observing him for "withchery" when it comes to being disturbed by tranistion into the warp, not what Maddoc previously stated as,

 

"...in Fear To Tread we have the Wolf Lord (Captain) Redknife telling his Rune Priest to be careful that the BA don't notice that he is still employing his powers as he isn't supposed to be using them anymore either..."

You might have a point, if not for the fact that for you to be right we have to ignore the actual context, conveniently omit key information when quoting, and give an extremely skewed version of Stiel's meeting with Ecanus and Kano (including ignoring his use of telepathy (a bona fide psychic power ala the TS Athaneans) to communicate with them).

 

I find myself wondering why I'm even bothering though, since based on your posts I shouldn't hold my breath that the actual facts will make so much as a dent in your "truth".

[ZAChos]

Give us a better context then MD. We can't accept evidence we haven't heard.

[Grimtooth]

Give us a better context then MD. We can't accept evidence we haven't heard.

 

I am waiting as well since iirc, Redknife warning Stiel happened before he surprised the other two former BA librarians.

[MadDoc]

First we have Redknife claim that his force weapon (little better than a shiney knife to a non-psyker) wielding Rune Priest isn't a "witch-mind"/psyker (later to be shown as an outright lie), next we have Redknife warn Stiel not to give himself away specifically in reference to his reaction to their translation into the Warp (reacting as a psyker would) to which Stiel replies ‘My deeds are as opaque as my words. They can see through neither unless I wish it.’ (foreshadowing something hinted at during his telepathic communication with Ecanus and Kano), and then we have him telepathically (a psychic power meaning he in fact is a "witch-mind") communicating with Ecanus and Kano, a conversation during which its implied that he had been following Kano either astrally or somehow otherwise masking his presence.

I don’t know you,’ Kano insisted. ‘I’ve shared nothing with you.’

The Rune Priest smiled, showing canine teeth studded with silver rivet heads. ‘ ‘We shared your journey from the Red Tear. Inaction has made your skills dull, cousin. You forgot how to see me.’

Kano paused, thinking. There had been moments during his passage when he thought he sensed a presence nearby, a motion at the corner of his eye, but he had ignored it, his mind occupied by other concerns.

‘And more than that,’ Stiel continued. ‘The sight. The dream. The red angel and the fall.’

But what would I know, clearly the Vlka Fenryka were allowed to retain their psyker Rune Priests and therefore would have no reason to hide that fact, except that we're specifically shown them hiding the fact that Rune Priests are psykers...

 

But lets just ignore the facts that don't support the Wolves being special flowers that have been given an exemption to the Nikaean Edict, since Ramses clearly knows better than the rest of us. ;)

[ZAChos]

@MD: I don't think anyone is currently suggesting that the wolves are, as you like to put it, "special flowers". The current much more interesting discussion is whether or not the wolves are aware that their Rune priests are psykers. Previous evidence from Prospero Burns suggests that Russ believes his Rune Priests to be different. Whether this is true or not still remains to be seen. Your quotes may provide some evidence against this, but the fact that they are able to do similar things still does not necessarily follow that they are aware of the fact that their powers come from the same source. In prospero burns Russ uses a psychic howl that screws with the TS Athaneans. Is he aware that it is a psychic power, or does he think that he's a badass Fenrisian who can terrify wizards with his awesome ass presence? Do they understand that their using a force weapon is taking power from the warp, or do they truly believe their power is sourced from Fenris? Do they understand they are using force weapons, or do they just think of them as pretty rad frost blades (I believe it mentioned somewhere that Frost Blades also effect Daemons in the same way as Force Weapons)?

 

I get your argument MD. Certainly the fact that Rune Priests can enter the Warp is a big argument in favour of it. I don't understand why people are taking this personally (BR included). If it turns out that the Wolves are a bunch of hypocrites that's fine. Hopefully we'll get some concrete motivation if that's the case.

 

At the moment I like the idea of the Wolves being confused by the whole situation a lot more compelling than the idea that Russ is spiteful enough to work towards ban something he considers dangerous, but then keeping them himself.

[KarkassBC]

At the moment I like the idea of the Wolves being confused by the whole situation a lot more compelling than the idea that Russ is spiteful enough to work towards ban something he considers dangerous, but then keeping them himself.

 

I think the "confusion" option and not "a lie" is the most probable. They deeply believe about it even in front of the entire galaxy (it's a common misconception but we forgive you... so they are aware of different opinion but they "know" the truth).

 

The complete trust of the Space Wolves on the idea that they are different and without have any doubt on it when the entire galaxy say otherwise it's perfectly on the overall behaviour of the common space wolves marine. They don't speak about the orders they received... they even don't think about a possible doubt on them... if a Lord say to them"Go and kill everyone" they don't ask "Why" but only "When"...

 

So if the Emperor or their Primarch said to them "you are different, you are pure" they don't have any doubt even if one day the Tyranids stopped their attacks and tried to explain that their primary psychic power works against them only because they are attuned to the Warp as every other psykers. And in that moment the most unbelievable is the Tyranids would stop to speak.

[Anaraion]

At the moment I like the idea of the Wolves being confused by the whole situation a lot more compelling than the idea that Russ is spiteful enough to work towards ban something he considers dangerous, but then keeping them himself.

 

We are not confused... we are pure... ;).

 

 

Yeah us working to get the edict and then knowingly keeping the outlawed powers does not strike me as in character.

 

Delusion yes... disloyal no and as mentioned I think most understand this now as Schrodinger's Nikean Edict (* crediting the source Avon).

[Kol Saresk]

I think what it comes down to is as Avon and Anarion say, the Wolves do 100% percent believe that they are exempt because they believe their powers are spiritual powers that come from Fenris. However, they do know enough about the other Legions' views is that they(the other Legions) will mistake the Rune Priests for psykers. And with good reason. The conflict is what has stemmed from this. Everyone but the Wolves know that the Rune Priests are indeed psykers and the Wolves, judging by the passages in Fear to Tread that the Wolves acknowledge that the rest of the Legions(possibly even the entire Imperium) think of the Rune Priests as psykers.

 

In a way, it is a tribute of sorts to the older fluff when the Edict was focused solely on the Thousand Sons because of their specific brand of warp use and how the Wolves were "pure." However, it seems BL has taken this oppurtunity to drag the once "black-and-white" fluff into the grey. Until something comes out to make it black-and-white again, we may never see a resolution to it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

just to keep this ball rolling, I could pointout that the Wolves were maybe more careful in using their powers around those they couldnt as a form of tact.

 

just like you dont go showing off your solid gold watch in front of a homeless person, maybe the Wolves were trying not to shove the fact they could use their powers in the faces of those that couldnt.

 

As far as I am concerned, the Wolves had to have some loop hole in using their abilities, as they traveled with the Custodian Guard and Sisters of Silence to Prospero. We saw how the Cust Guard reacted when Corax wanted one of his psykers to use his power, so why would they allow the Wolves to do so unchallanged?

 

there has to be more of the story, and to get as...personal and snarky as both sides have here when the ongoing story hasnt finished is a little bit silly.

 

okay, alotta bit silly.

 

WLK

[Grimtooth]

As I said earlier, the loyalist are bringing them back more or less out of necessity, and without any decree from Terra to do so. So far it librarians being reinstated by primarchs alone.

 

One thing I wonder is if their will be a second backlash against librarians (the first being the edict) once the knowledge of the Thousand Sons siding with Horus gets around. Will there be a second reckoning of the librarians as suspicions of the training they received under now traitorous brethren is questioned?

[KarkassBC]

As far as I am concerned, the Wolves had to have some loop hole in using their abilities, as they traveled with the Custodian Guard and Sisters of Silence to Prospero. We saw how the Cust Guard reacted when Corax wanted one of his psykers to use his power, so why would they allow the Wolves to do so unchallanged?

 

there has to be more of the story, and to get as...personal and snarky as both sides have here when the ongoing story hasnt finished is a little bit silly.

 

okay, alotta bit silly.

 

Silly meaning stands for showing little thought or judgment; foolish.

 

Silly for me when someone give bad words about others... but not to have an opinion and use some points to confirm that.

 

We have some points that give right to a statement "Rune Priests were psykers" and some others disagreeing with that (for example the Custodes and Sister alongside Space Wolves)

 

Unfortunately we have some "neutrals" personnell (in the books) giving voice to their opinion about the Rune Priests, while in both books (Prospero Burn and ATS) we don't have Custodes or Sisters speaking about it.

 

So even giving clues that they accepted the Rune Priests powers they don't give the reasons for that. For example they would know perfectly the differency between the "good powers coming from the natural cycle of life and death of Fenris" and the corrupting powers coming from the Warp. Or they received a direct order from the Emperor, from Malcador, from Valdor to ignore completely the question and fight on Prospero.

 

My personal opinion is they received a direct order from the Emperor because I don't think Custodes and Sisters have adequate knowledge about the psychic realm.

[KarkassBC]

As I said earlier, the loyalist are bringing them back more or less out of necessity, and without any decree from Terra to do so. So far it librarians being reinstated by primarchs alone.

 

One thing I wonder is if their will be a second backlash against librarians (the first being the edict) once the knowledge of the Thousand Sons siding with Horus gets around. Will there be a second reckoning of the librarians as suspicions of the training they received under now traitorous brethren is questioned?

 

Perhaps the contrary. They know that Magnus tried to warn about Horus treachery. So he wasn't on the traitor side at the start.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

As I said earlier, the loyalist are bringing them back more or less out of necessity, and without any decree from Terra to do so. So far it librarians being reinstated by primarchs alone.

 

One thing I wonder is if their will be a second backlash against librarians (the first being the edict) once the knowledge of the Thousand Sons siding with Horus gets around. Will there be a second reckoning of the librarians as suspicions of the training they received under now traitorous brethren is questioned?

 

Perhaps the contrary. They know that Magnus tried to warn about Horus treachery. So he wasn't on the traitor side at the start.

 

I would point out that Magnus actually betrayed his promise to the Emperor from the point he met him. So Magnus was never loyal, he just hadnt commited a gross act of disloyalty yet.

 

WLK

[Grimtooth]

As I said earlier, the loyalist are bringing them back more or less out of necessity, and without any decree from Terra to do so. So far it librarians being reinstated by primarchs alone.

 

One thing I wonder is if their will be a second backlash against librarians (the first being the edict) once the knowledge of the Thousand Sons siding with Horus gets around. Will there be a second reckoning of the librarians as suspicions of the training they received under now traitorous brethren is questioned?

 

Perhaps the contrary. They know that Magnus tried to warn about Horus treachery. So he wasn't on the traitor side at the start.

 

I would point out that Magnus actually betrayed his promise to the Emperor from the point he met him. So Magnus was never loyal, he just hadnt commited a gross act of disloyalty yet.

 

WLK

 

Are you speaking about his continued warp surfing after the Emperor said no more delving too deep?

 

IIRC from A Thousand Sons, there is a point where Magnus is obviously being deceptive to Ahiriman when doing some reminiscing. Two times in fact,

 

1. One where Ahiriman says something like, "No primarch you already knew about such and such before you met the Emperor" and Magnus looks about to kill him.

 

2. When Magnus reveals his deal to end the clesh curse.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

As I said earlier, the loyalist are bringing them back more or less out of necessity, and without any decree from Terra to do so. So far it librarians being reinstated by primarchs alone.

 

One thing I wonder is if their will be a second backlash against librarians (the first being the edict) once the knowledge of the Thousand Sons siding with Horus gets around. Will there be a second reckoning of the librarians as suspicions of the training they received under now traitorous brethren is questioned?

 

Perhaps the contrary. They know that Magnus tried to warn about Horus treachery. So he wasn't on the traitor side at the start.

 

I would point out that Magnus actually betrayed his promise to the Emperor from the point he met him. So Magnus was never loyal, he just hadnt commited a gross act of disloyalty yet.

 

WLK

 

Are you speaking about his continued warp surfing after the Emperor said no more delving too deep?

 

IIRC from A Thousand Sons, there is a point where Magnus is obviously being deceptive to Ahiriman when doing some reminiscing. Two times in fact,

 

1. One where Ahiriman says something like, "No primarch you already knew about such and such before you met the Emperor" and Magnus looks about to kill him.

 

2. When Magnus reveals his deal to end the clesh curse.

 

Their first encounter, the Emperor sees how powerful Magnus is, and how much danger he is in from the Warp powers. So unlike the other primarchs, Magnus gets a full tour and is told everything the Emperor knows. The the Emperor makes Magnus promise to stop digging so hard. Magnus agrees, but then turns back to his research in exchange for power.

 

So from the get go, Magnus was an oath-breaker.

 

Source: Collected Visions

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

As I said earlier, the loyalist are bringing them back more or less out of necessity, and without any decree from Terra to do so. So far it librarians being reinstated by primarchs alone.

 

One thing I wonder is if their will be a second backlash against librarians (the first being the edict) once the knowledge of the Thousand Sons siding with Horus gets around. Will there be a second reckoning of the librarians as suspicions of the training they received under now traitorous brethren is questioned?

 

Perhaps the contrary. They know that Magnus tried to warn about Horus treachery. So he wasn't on the traitor side at the start.

 

I would point out that Magnus actually betrayed his promise to the Emperor from the point he met him. So Magnus was never loyal, he just hadnt commited a gross act of disloyalty yet.

 

WLK

To be honest, with all of the analogies out there for the Primarchs, I think it is safe to say that Magnus is the stereotypical American teenager. He says that he'll behave, but every night he goes out and parties and gets drunk and does everything else he knows is his wrong. But, despite his rebellion streak, he does love his father. He just thinks he knows better so he doesn't worry about the consequences until they bite him in the rear. His entire motivation throughout the book wasn't greed, revenge for some imagined slight, or anything else that was serious or could be blown out proportion. Rather, it was his belief that Humanity was headed towards a psychic evolution and as a Primarch, a shepherd so to speak, it was his duty to help guide Humanity by learning everything he could about the warp because, in his mind, he was already a master of the warp because he was one of the most powerful psykers ever produced by Humanity. Like everything else related to 40k, it's not as black-and-white as "He was never loyal." He was loyal, but in the same way that Horus was considering the possibility of tolerating xenos if it meant a peaceful way to unite Humanity. If everything was "black-and-white" as "if a Primarch doesn't do what the Emperor says, he's Traitor." Wasn't part of the Imperial creed during the Crusade "Suffer not the Xenos to live?" And yet Horus was only considered to have turned Traitor after he was corrupted at Davin. Just saying that it seems "Everything is Grey" is making a comeback is all.

 

On the note of Custodes and Sisters of Silence, well we're working on a few assumptions. One, there is a mandate from the Emperor for them. Two, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence knew about the Rune Priests being psykers. After all, they did try to hide the fact from the Blood Angels, there is the possibility that the much smaller, and more likely more isolated, contingent of Custodes and Sisters could have been kept unaware of the fact.

 

There is also the inverse assumption of the fact that it could be said I'm making assumptions as well, which is true. Just pointing out that when it comes to possibilities, it's just one, big Schrödinger's Cat.

[KarkassBC]

As I said earlier, the loyalist are bringing them back more or less out of necessity, and without any decree from Terra to do so. So far it librarians being reinstated by primarchs alone.

 

One thing I wonder is if their will be a second backlash against librarians (the first being the edict) once the knowledge of the Thousand Sons siding with Horus gets around. Will there be a second reckoning of the librarians as suspicions of the training they received under now traitorous brethren is questioned?

 

Perhaps the contrary. They know that Magnus tried to warn about Horus treachery. So he wasn't on the traitor side at the start.

 

I would point out that Magnus actually betrayed his promise to the Emperor from the point he met him. So Magnus was never loyal, he just hadnt commited a gross act of disloyalty yet.

 

WLK

 

Are you speaking about his continued warp surfing after the Emperor said no more delving too deep?

 

IIRC from A Thousand Sons, there is a point where Magnus is obviously being deceptive to Ahiriman when doing some reminiscing. Two times in fact,

 

1. One where Ahiriman says something like, "No primarch you already knew about such and such before you met the Emperor" and Magnus looks about to kill him.

 

2. When Magnus reveals his deal to end the clesh curse.

 

More for me when he killed Uthizzar.

 

Even Ahriman knew about a possible "black side" of the deal.

 

 

“Perhaps. The Emperor has seen a great many things,” said Ahriman, though Lemuel sensed evasion in his words. “Yes, Magnus

saved us, but he never said how he did it.”

“Does it matter?” asked Lemuel. “He saved you. Isn’t that enough?”

Ahriman turned his gaze to the heavens. “That remains to be seen, but I think it will matter. I think it will matter a great deal.”

 

 

What I want to stress is the difference between "in game" knowledge and "out game" knowledge. We read the books and we know everything that happened, but we must evaluate the actions of the personnel in regard of their limited knowledge.

 

In the first seven years, before the Siege of Terra, no one has seen the Thousand Sons after Prospero and no one could say they were traitors. Moreover if the Emperor wanted from Russ only an armed escort to Terra. Many amongst the Space Wolves knew about the unbelievable warning of Magnus on Horus, and some before the assault on Prospero were wondering that the warning could be real.

So, without further proof of Thousand Sons treachery until the Siege of Terra, we cannot say they considered the TS as traitors.

[Grimtooth]

As I said earlier, the loyalist are bringing them back more or less out of necessity, and without any decree from Terra to do so. So far it librarians being reinstated by primarchs alone.

 

One thing I wonder is if their will be a second backlash against librarians (the first being the edict) once the knowledge of the Thousand Sons siding with Horus gets around. Will there be a second reckoning of the librarians as suspicions of the training they received under now traitorous brethren is questioned?

 

Perhaps the contrary. They know that Magnus tried to warn about Horus treachery. So he wasn't on the traitor side at the start.

 

I would point out that Magnus actually betrayed his promise to the Emperor from the point he met him. So Magnus was never loyal, he just hadnt commited a gross act of disloyalty yet.

 

WLK

To be honest, with all of the analogies out there for the Primarchs, I think it is safe to say that Magnus is the stereotypical American teenager. He says that he'll behave, but every night he goes out and parties and gets drunk and does everything else he knows is his wrong. But, despite his rebellion streak, he does love his father. He just thinks he knows better so he doesn't worry about the consequences until they bite him in the rear. His entire motivation throughout the book wasn't greed, revenge for some imagined slight, or anything else that was serious or could be blown out proportion. Rather, it was his belief that Humanity was headed towards a psychic evolution and as a Primarch, a shepherd so to speak, it was his duty to help guide Humanity by learning everything he could about the warp because, in his mind, he was already a master of the warp because he was one of the most powerful psykers ever produced by Humanity. Like everything else related to 40k, it's not as black-and-white as "He was never loyal." He was loyal, but in the same way that Horus was considering the possibility of tolerating xenos if it meant a peaceful way to unite Humanity. If everything was "black-and-white" as "if a Primarch doesn't do what the Emperor says, he's Traitor." Wasn't part of the Imperial creed during the Crusade "Suffer not the Xenos to live?" And yet Horus was only considered to have turned Traitor after he was corrupted at Davin. Just saying that it seems "Everything is Grey" is making a comeback is all.

 

On the note of Custodes and Sisters of Silence, well we're working on a few assumptions. One, there is a mandate from the Emperor for them. Two, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence knew about the Rune Priests being psykers. After all, they did try to hide the fact from the Blood Angels, there is the possibility that the much smaller, and more likely more isolated, contingent of Custodes and Sisters could have been kept unaware of the fact.

 

There is also the inverse assumption of the fact that it could be said I'm making assumptions as well, which is true. Just pointing out that when it comes to possibilities, it's just one, big Schrödinger's Cat.

 

I think that they problem with that is that the Sisters have the pariah gene and part of it allows them to sense psykers as well as the being "blank". I might be drawing a blank on that, but I thought that was the case in short story where the Sisters go onto a black ship that has been taken over by the psykers whle in the warp.

 

As for Magnus, I think his loyatly was broken the moment he made his deal to stop the flesh change. Maybe unknowingly, because he thought he was smarter or more powerful, but at that moment of desperation he turned away from the Emperor's light.

[Kol Saresk]

Not sure on the Pariahs. I know they nullify psychic powers. There's the one un Nemesis that was gene-engineered to suck in psyker energy and blast it back IIRC, but that was gen-hanced one so I wouldnt consider that norm. Not sure on anything else. No books on hand to check it out.

 

But at the same time, wouldn't mean much since virtually every Legion had psykers so unless they could sense the powers being used, I'm not sure I would use that.

[KarkassBC]

Not sure on the Pariahs. I know they nullify psychic powers. There's the one un Nemesis that was gene-engineered to suck in psyker energy and blast it back IIRC, but that was gen-hanced one so I wouldnt consider that norm. Not sure on anything else. No books on hand to check it out.

 

But at the same time, wouldn't mean much since virtually every Legion had psykers so unless they could sense the powers being used, I'm not sure I would use that.

 

There is another example in "Outcast Dead". One of the killers was a pariah assassin and used the powers of Atharva and the other psykers to send strange psy-blasts. More or less is the description of a Culexus assassin.

 

The book give also a description of their capabilities: in fact they don't perceive the presence of psykers around them otherwise he wouldn't be killed by Atharva

the assassin went near him thinking he was wracked by his presence but Atharva had severed the link with the warp and only faked a weakness. In this way the pariah didn't have the capacity to know if Atharva was still a psykers or not.

 

 

Again this is only one individual, with specific training and powers, so he could be an exception to the normal pariah.

 

But the greatest info that we have in the lore is the 40k description of the pariah assassins. Their powers work even against Eldar and Tyranids psykers. And we cannot count of them as Chaos warped psyker adepts.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay fair enough. I only remembered it from the one book. Maybe I'll embark on a re-reading of every book I own for the Heresy.