Chapter Master w/ Honour Guard vs Captain w/ Command Squad

[ale0x]

Trying to put together a slightly assault-oriented fun fluffy C:SM list (using what I have available) and I am torn between these two options. They both weigh in at 360 points:

 

Chapter Master w/ Artificer Armour, BP + Relic Blade

4 Honour Guard (Champion w/ Relic Blade, 2 w/ Power Swords, 1 w/ Power Axe, Chapter Standard)

 

versus

 

Captain w/ Artificer Armour, Lightning Claw + Power Fist

5 Command Squad (Apothecary, Champion w/ Power Axe + SS, 2 w/ Power Swords, 1 w/ Power Axe, Company Standard)

 

 

5 Command Squad models + Captain vs. 4 Honour Guard (with 2+ saves) + Chapter Master...what is the better bang for the buck?

 

I know some people say that Command Squads are best used as a shooty option due to their weapon choices, and I know some people say Honour Guard are too expensive...I really am at a loss for what to do here.

 

Another thing to consider is I'm planning on taking BA allies in this list (assault squad to fill the compulsory troops slot, then a Reclusiarch + 10 Death Company in an LRC) as the main assaulty element. This leaves the command/honour squad without an assault vehicle, so I'm trying to decide whether to put 'em in a Rhino (i have ONE Rhino, had been planning on putting a tac squad in it) or leave them out and footslog 'em up the board using the LRC as cover or something.

 

Anyway as you can see I need some guidance, I have no idea what to do lol.

 

Any ideas or suggestions are appreciated!

[Paulochromis]

With no assault vehicle, both units have to spend too much time on foot (and therefore vulnerable to shooting) to be great melee units.

The Honour Guard's 2+ is a factor here, although S8 is scary. It's even worse for the Command Squad, since you haven't equipped them with the key differentiator, the Storm Shield (3++), although can FNP help. If you can get them a Rhino, I'd lean towards the Command Squad with a couple of shooty options so they can contribute whilst mounted.

[DarkGuard]

In terms of pure assault potential, I prefer the Honour Guard, purely because of 2+ armour (which is better in assault in now), and because the Chapter Banner gives them a ton more attacks in assault when compared to any other assault unit we have (in terms of attacks per body). The load out you have is decent as well, as you have a decent range of options, I'd possibly take two power axes though, you have I4/5 sorted with the Champion and Master. A storm shield for the Master would also be good, if you have the points.

 

However, in your list I'd go with neither. If you're putting them in a Rhino, they will fail. The first thing I did in 6th was to try and use my Honour Guard in a Rhino still, it just didn't work. The revelation that one of my favourite units wouldn't work unless I spent more money and points on another transport did put me off 6th for a couple of weeks.

 

Considering that you have the Death Company, and therefore the assault element covered, I'd just go for a quad-plasma gun Command squad if the only transport you can give them is a Rhino. More efficient, and fits the transport better.

[ale0x]

Man, that was exactly the hard truth I was hoping not to hear :P

 

All my stuff is assembled and primed/half-painted already too. Sigh.

 

Maybe I'll just keep the Honour Guard and Command squads + their HQs just for Apoc or something, and not run either in my main list. Maybe I'll just take a basic jump pack captain to fulfill compulsory HQ and stick him in the squad of allied BA assault marines.

[henrythesecond]

I confess I only include my Command Squad in games around the 2k+ mark, but this is how I run them:

 

Captain Silas Alberec - 155

Command Squad - 293

Apothecary

Company Champion – Power Sword, Storm Bolter.

Veteran – Company Standard, Power Sword, Bolt Pistol.

Veteran – Plasma Gun, Storm Shield.

Veteran – Melta Gun, Storm Shield.

Razorback – Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun.

 

My tactic hinges upon the presence of midfield cover available sufficient to block LOS to the Razorback, or at the very least provide a 5+ Cover Save. If no such cover is available, then a decision has to be made whether the extra distance for Flat Out is more important than the 5+ I can achieve by using Smoke Launchers.

 

Turn 1, the Razor advances as far as is required to get into the midfield cover, Flat Out if necessary. Accompanied by at least 1 Tac Squad in Rhino.

 

Turn 2, Razor advances further 6" towards intended target (usually the enemy high-value target or objective in enemy DZ). Command Squad disembarks with a view to shooting the highest threat.

 

Turn 2, Tac Terminators (x10) Deep Strike in using Capt Alberec's Teleport Homer. This should provide 3 pressing targets for opponent to deal with, all mutually supporting. If Tac Termies are delayed, then the accompanying Tac Squad in Rhino are called forward to provide opponent with some firepower dilution decisions.

 

I know, I know, it certainly isn't a simple plan, it has waaaay too many moving parts to reliably work. But the only real show-stopper is if Silas Alberec dies before the Termies arrive. That kinda sucks, but other than that, whatever happens, I generally have fun with it and it gets in my opponents face and forces him to make decisions. And as we all know, the more decisions your opponent makes, eventually he'll make a poor one.

 

Anyhoop, I've rambled on long enough. Just my 2p worth.

[DarkGuard]

Man, that was exactly the hard truth I was hoping not to hear :(

 

All my stuff is assembled and primed/half-painted already too. Sigh.

 

Maybe I'll just keep the Honour Guard and Command squads + their HQs just for Apoc or something, and not run either in my main list. Maybe I'll just take a basic jump pack captain to fulfill compulsory HQ and stick him in the squad of allied BA assault marines.

 

Give it a try if you want, you may be able to make them work where others have failed. Or maybe just use another Land Raider, if you have the points.

[BassWave]

Has anyone tried walking a large honor guard squad? 2+ and high body count should protect them long enough to get into combat. Plus they have bolters, they can shoot stuff on the way over.

[Captain Idaho]

Trying to put together a slightly assault-oriented fun fluffy C:SM list (using what I have available) and I am torn between these two options. They both weigh in at 360 points:

 

Chapter Master w/ Artificer Armour, BP + Relic Blade

4 Honour Guard (Champion w/ Relic Blade, 2 w/ Power Swords, 1 w/ Power Axe, Chapter Standard)

 

versus

 

Captain w/ Artificer Armour, Lightning Claw + Power Fist

5 Command Squad (Apothecary, Champion w/ Power Axe + SS, 2 w/ Power Swords, 1 w/ Power Axe, Company Standard)

 

 

5 Command Squad models + Captain vs. 4 Honour Guard (with 2+ saves) + Chapter Master...what is the better bang for the buck?

 

I know some people say that Command Squads are best used as a shooty option due to their weapon choices, and I know some people say Honour Guard are too expensive...I really am at a loss for what to do here.

 

Another thing to consider is I'm planning on taking BA allies in this list (assault squad to fill the compulsory troops slot, then a Reclusiarch + 10 Death Company in an LRC) as the main assaulty element. This leaves the command/honour squad without an assault vehicle, so I'm trying to decide whether to put 'em in a Rhino (i have ONE Rhino, had been planning on putting a tac squad in it) or leave them out and footslog 'em up the board using the LRC as cover or something.

 

Anyway as you can see I need some guidance, I have no idea what to do lol.

 

Any ideas or suggestions are appreciated!

 

Well it's obvious what I'm going to say! :D

 

If you have the models and you want them to work, then firstly I'd say go for it, but you may need some extra models to assist. You've already got a Landraider so a second one is a large points investment that might hurt your list, so on that basis I'd suggest a Drop Pod. Actually I'd suggest swapping the Drop Pod with the Landraider for the Death Company and Honour Guard, but that's a personal decision for you to make.

 

Combat potential Honour Guard beat Command squads hands down. The strength of a Command squad (aside from shooting), is a cheap combat unit with a couple Storm Shields as a bodyguard for a combat character. I recommend taking a couple Storm Shields, a single powerfist and the Company Champion alongside of the Apothecary (185pts). Only problem I have with this is for just 15pts you can get Assault Terminators!

 

Honour Guard excel at carving through infantry and hordes, and any unit without AP2. Elite kills are best assaulted with Assault Terminators generally, particularly monstrous creatures.

 

Just to be a pain, I note you've mentioned the Company Champion has a "SS". Is this a typo, as the Champion cannot have other wargear and sticks to the Combat Shield and Power weapon?

[ale0x]

Just to be a pain, I note you've mentioned the Company Champion has a "SS". Is this a typo, as the Champion cannot have other wargear and sticks to the Combat Shield and Power weapon?

 

 

Oh snap...I totally spaced on that. Army Builder let me take it (which I know is incorrect) and I wasn't thinking.

 

Well, that frees up 15 point somewhere!

[Venemox]

The reason that AB let you take the Storm Shield is because promoting a Veteran to Company Champion supplements his war gear. Anything he has natively or purchased prior to promotion is neither replaced nor removed. So, the Veteran purchases his Storm Shield, then gets promoted, resulting in a Company Champion with Storm Shield. Any other intepretation must also remove his bolt gun/bolt pistol and grenades, as well.

[DarkGuard]

Can we keep that OR please? We already have a thread arguing about that going on at the moment. Lets keep this to debating Honour Guard vs Command squad, not the finicky parts of GW's rules writing.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm fresh back from a tournament where I took 5 Honour Guard in a Landraider. I found the Honour Guard were able to do things that a Command squad couldn't do, particularly against the Imperial Guard game I played.

 

My opponent defended his juicy, weaker units with two Infantry blob squads 30 strong plus Commissar. And destroying them both would require a massive amount of time or extreme luck. I took casualities (actually, I lost 1 Honour Guard to an exploding vehicle!) and had only a Ancient, Champion and a spare Honour Guard left, so my offence was reduced, yet I still managed to cull plenty of the Guardsmen so they were heavily defeated. (note the precision strikes with the Chapter Master to kill the Commissar could still have occurred accompanying a Command squad, though with 1 less attacks).

 

Conversly, had a Command squad been reduced to just 3 models I'm pretty sure the reduced attacks compared to the Honour Guard, not to mention weaker armour save defending against all those lasgun shots ("Rapid fire with an additional shot from orders, followed by Overwatch? You got to be kidding me!" I said), would have resulted in more losses. The reduced amount of attacks would have killed less models too, so return attacks would have been more telling still.

 

Situational somewhat, but my other games had similar needs for more attacks. 12 Feel No Pain Noise Marines (fearless) are annoying to get rid of, especially without precision strikes to kill the Icon bearer, whilst my 2nd game saw Deathwing who had far too many Storm Shields saves for my liking, so massed attacks were superior here again.

 

There is an old saying adopted by 40K "quantity has a quality all of it's own". Honour Guard are one of the only units to have both quantity and quality in their attacks.

[Venemox]

Can we keep that OR please? We already have a thread arguing about that going on at the moment. Lets keep this to debating Honour Guard vs Command squad, not the finicky parts of GW's rules writing.

 

Agreed. Just mentioning it because it might impact his choice, especially if he's already modelled it and cost analyzed for it. Full analysis requires a clear view of all the options.

[Spacelizard]

5 Command Squad models + Captain vs. 4 Honour Guard (with 2+ saves) + Chapter Master...what is the better bang for the buck?

 

Neither.

 

For 360 points you can take:

 

5 Assault Terminators + Captain w/ artificer armor and relic blade and still have 15 points left over to give your captain digital weapons and a melta bomb.

 

Take the captain over the chapter master because it saves you 25 points. They have the same exact stat line. The extra 25 points only buys you orbital bombardment and the option to take honor guard. The orbital bombardment is a one time use ability that scatters a full 2d6 and any smart opponent will spread out his unit coherency enough to where you won't kill more than a couple even if you direct hit. So yea...just take the Captain.

 

The terminators get a 5+invuln base whereas honor guard don't. You can get a 3+ invuln with TH+SS which you can take for free. Dual LC terminators are better than power weapon honor guard. IF you take relic blades you will have and easier time wonding but so will lightning claws since they have shred. Both squads can take thunder hammers but the terminators don't have to pay extra for them and they get the storm shield for free as well. Honor guard can't take storm shields at all. Lastly, Thundernators can hunt anything in the game. You can charge a monstrous creature and expect to win with thundernators. If that honor guard squad charges or gets charged by a monstrous creature they will become a stain on the ground.

 

I have always loved the idea of honor guard and command squads. I think that the concept and the models are very cool. But every time I consider taking them I always just end up taking Assault terminators instead. Point for point they are just better in every way.

[Captain Idaho]

I disagree. :lol:

 

Honour Guard fill a niche Assault Terminators are less able to compete against. There is no better source of large numbers of attacks in all the Codex than Honour Guard, being able to carve through large squads with less attrition because they are able to kill more models quicker.

 

Sure against Tactical Marines, the result is roughly the same - dead Tactical squad; but against an Imperial Guard blob squad or Ork Mob, or a large unit of anything, the Honour Guard become much more useful. Large Chaos Marine Fearless troops, or Cultists/Zombies, are also another unit Honour Guard are better at killing. They get higher amounts of precision attacks thanks to the Champion too.

 

Without trying to go into it too indepth, attrition hurts Assault Marines more than Honour Guard. Chapter Champions and attached characters love the Chapter Banner, so the squad remains a high threat even at reduced numbers, where as 2 Terminators plus attached character will be quite a bit less powerful.

[DarkGuard]

To be honest Idaho, Honour Guard have lost some points efficiency in being forced to take a Raider, making them more expensive than Terminators, especially as you can take a Libby as your HQ with Terminators. Furthermore, if equipped with a couple of lighting claws, Terminators can also handle hordes all right in addition to doing all the heavy lifting.

 

However, Honour Guard are still the kings of anti-horde, but I do feel that Assault Terminators are now a lot more efficient, especially if build at a 3:2 ratio. ;)

[Captain Idaho]

Whilst I agree Honour Guard have lost their points efficiency a little when taking a Landraider, it is neglible in comparison to the loss of efficiency in mixing weapons in Terminator squads. Their strength is survivability and this is comprimised if you take Lightning Claws. Similarly, killing hordes is not going to be easy with just 2 pairs of Lightning Claw on the charge at initiative either.

 

I just don't rate Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws.

 

And of course, the "hidden" strength of Honour Guard is the addition of a Chapter Banner and a Captain level unit champion act as force multipliers. After just a couple casualities, Assault Terminaters lose a significant amount of efficiency whilst these strengths are what makes the Honour Guard so worthwhile.

 

Don't get me wrong, Thunder Hammer/Storm Shields Terminators fufill a niche that Honour Guard can't compare to - survivability. But this is their only real use in my view.

[Hellrender]

Hammernators are better alround, with some minor support they can be good at anti horde aswell. They can deep strike, or take a land raider. In 6th, they havent changed.

 

However, honour guard lost their cheap transport, meaning you have to make points free for a land raider, which means sacrificing a unit with a purpose. And here starts te tricky part. The Hammernators support the list, no matter what, and will most likely do something useful, where as the HG have a much more specialised role,and risk leaving a gap in you battle plan.

 

HG are certainly not bad, but require more thought and luck, and skill to use.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't disagree that Honour Guard are harder to use than Assault Terminaters, but I don't think the latter are better over all in a list. They are the unit to use to soak attention from opponents, often operating solo as an attacking force whilst the rest of the army is concentrated on shooting etc.

 

A strength for sure, but Terminaters suffer from attriton much more than Honour Guard, who can operate much more efficiently with reduced numbers thanks to the Champion and Ancient.

 

And of coure, 2 things have changed in 6th edition which have strengthened Honour Guard substantially; changes to power weapons and the ease of assaulting vehicles/destroying vehicles to allow for a charge (i.e. No more parking lots).

 

The list of tatgets Honour Guard cann deal with has extended in this edition has extended where as Assault Terminators are still elite smashrs.

 

Regardjng Landraiders - originally I was gutted I couldn't assault from a Rhino, but now the extra distance you can move with a Landraisr has enabled an assault unit to get up the table into charge range quickly.

 

I've enjoyed my Landraider recently, since even the game I lost it turn 2 against Imperial Guard saw it's contents assault safely next turn.

[Hellrender]

which landraider variant do you use? I never liked assault terminators, more because of everybody taking them, but you can't deny the ease of using them in all comer lists. My main issue is against Deathwing lists.. i just dont feel a honour guard squad will get his points back..

[Captain Idaho]

I use the good old twin lascannon standar pattern Landraider. The long range anti-tank gives me an option to hold back and still hit large targets and not feel like you're wasting a turn.

 

Well against Deathwing both Honour Guard and Assault Terminators are less than ideal. The best way to kill armies made up so many Terminators with Storm Shields is weight of fire and very good placement and movement. Check my 5th Company tournament report in he Ultramarines forum to see how I beat 1 such player.

 

Of course, Honour Guard can put weight of attacks on a unit to bring down a few in a squad, though it's risky if he Assault Terminators are full strength. Against Deathwing armies you are best off concentrating fire on a unit the Honour Guard are going to charge, since they stand a good chance of killing the unit in 1 go before they strike.

 

Those armies are pretty hard to play against at times, so you need to play clever.