CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 So I just thought of something. Perhaps GW took away the Initiative bonus for FC because with the change to Rage they knew they were giving the world usable Death Company? :devil: A heavy tax to pay, but could you imagine DC now if they retained the I5? I'm sure at the time they believed I5-DC+Stormraven delivery would break the game. It wouldn't of course, but I'm sure that's what they thought. I love the rules for Overwatch, I really do. I think it's something the game needed, and fluffwise makes tons of sense. Just losing that Furious Charge hurts so badly... was there a GW writer who always lost to Blood Angels so they felt the need to nerf it? I cannot think of any other codex or unit (maybe Berzerkers) so deeply affected by the FC change than BA. Orks kept the +1 Str which is all they cared about anyway. There is no other way than to believe it was a 'personal' de-buff to Blood Angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Im with CAG. I think with DC being troops, having a squad of these guys in every single army would be a bit naff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 DC dont score though, which is a huge thing in this edition :) that said im glad they moved away from all the movement shenanigans ^_^ now we can at least control them again and still have them kick ass in combat :P We dont need a chaplain anymore either but the reroll to hit AND wound does make it tempting! That said I havent used a DC squad in a loooooong while... Think il take a squad again to replace a big assault squad. Dont need the added priest for FnP either! B) Dang so now I have to shoehorn assault termies, a storm raven AND DC in my list :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykra Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 That said I havent used a DC squad in a loooooong while... Think il take a squad again to replace a big assault squad. Dont need the added priest for FnP either! :sweat: I've always been a huge fan of the Death Company's lore and models, but the rules kept me away from them for far too long. I've started using a DC unit in a drop pod, with the 'Dead Men Fighting' attitude I usually gave my melta-Sternguard, and they've been amazing. I haven't attached any characters yet as they draw an ungodly amount of fire as soon as the drop pod door's drop (say that five times fast), so I've tried to keep them a bit steam-lined points wise. They always seem to make their mark though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I think the loss of the Init bonus has more to do with the way you remove casualties in combat as well as the lower pile in move distance. Since its always the front guys that die first, you would run into a lot of situations where you would simply wipe out the front rank of a Marine unit and be completely free of retaliation. I would bet dollars to donuts that's the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I think the loss of the Init bonus has more to do with the way you remove casualties in combat as well as the lower pile in move distance. Since its always the front guys that die first, you would run into a lot of situations where you would simply wipe out the front rank of a Marine unit and be completely free of retaliation. I would bet dollars to donuts that's the reason. That would imply a level of playtesting GW seems incapable of. Probably just a lucky coincidence. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 lol ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 So I just thought of something. Perhaps GW took away the Initiative bonus for FC because with the change to Rage they knew they were giving the world usable Death Company? ;) A heavy tax to pay, but could you imagine DC now if they retained the I5? I'm sure at the time they believed I5-DC+Stormraven delivery would break the game. It wouldn't of course, but I'm sure that's what they thought. I love the rules for Overwatch, I really do. I think it's something the game needed, and fluffwise makes tons of sense. Just losing that Furious Charge hurts so badly... was there a GW writer who always lost to Blood Angels so they felt the need to nerf it? I cannot think of any other codex or unit (maybe Berzerkers) so deeply affected by the FC change than BA. Orks kept the +1 Str which is all they cared about anyway. There is no other way than to believe it was a 'personal' de-buff to Blood Angels. Just look at it this way. The Blood Angels are so awesome GW had to nerf our special rules to give everyone else a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 That would imply a level of playtesting GW seems incapable of. Probably just a lucky coincidence. ;) Just look at it this way. The Blood Angels are so awesome GW had to nerf our special rules to give everyone else a chance. LOL! @JamesI, well that's an awesome way to look at it ;) @knife&fork, I feel it was probably only one game. No extensive playtesting, probably just one test-game where the Jumper-DC ran completely amock with 12" move, the new 2D6 charge range and I5... just one playtest game like that and they probably lost their minds and looked for a nerf. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I feel it was probably only one game. No extensive playtesting, probably just one test-game where the Jumper-DC ran completely amock with 12" move, the new 2D6 charge range and I5... just one playtest game like that and they probably lost their minds and looked for a nerf. :o I suppose it's worth mentioning here, then that our Jump Packs actually make us crazy-awesome in close combat to begin with in this edition between Hammer of Wrath and getting to re-roll our charge distance. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I doubt the change to Furious Charge had to do with the Death Company. My bet would be it was Initiative steps. They didn't want us cutting a swathe through the enemy on our Initiative count and not allowing our opponents to retaliate. My biggest gripe with getting nerfed is how we fare against Grey Knights now. We went from giving them a beating in assault to taking one ourselves. Not to mention force weapons now negate Feel No Pain and make Priests less useful. For the longest time, I guess I played a one sided game where I went assault heavy. I agree hybrid is the way to go now, I'm just having a hard time adjusting. I'm sure it'll come in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy12009 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Because the design team multitasks as artists, white dwarf writers, sculpters, etc the play test phase (according to gw) relies heavily on players at bugmans bar. This means most of their input is second hand. Personally, I wish they had a team of beta testers like they do for software engineers, but that just isn't going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Ok so I have finished my list for Friday nights 2000 point game and I managed to squeeze a 10man death company in. 8 bolters, 1 bolter + power fist, 1 bolt pistol + power axe. They will be in a landraider crusader with a terminator librarian with axe and storm shield! I expect much blood shed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Because the design team multitasks as artists, white dwarf writers, sculpters, etc the play test phase (according to gw) relies heavily on players at bugmans bar. This means most of their input is second hand. Personally, I wish they had a team of beta testers like they do for software engineers, but that just isn't going to happen. I think there are plenty of players around the world who would play test GW's games for free. They would be happy to provide the service, knowing they had blessed themselves [even if they are not interested in 'the community'] for future games of 40K that made sense and was better in balance. That is even with an extremely grimdark pessimistic view of said players :D I think some would love that chance to go through written rules too. GW gets something for free, the testers get a better edition, people stop venting on GW and/or leaving GW, and we all get a more slick game. Seems like wins all round to me! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I suppose it's worth mentioning here, then that our Jump Packs actually make us crazy-awesome in close combat to begin with in this edition between Hammer of Wrath and getting to re-roll our charge distance. i dunno man. Nine times out of ten im using my JP for the movement, and therefore dont get the HoW or the rerolls. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 The only time I am ever using my Jump Pack to assault is when I am 10" away from my target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I suppose it's worth mentioning here, then that our Jump Packs actually make us crazy-awesome in close combat to begin with in this edition between Hammer of Wrath and getting to re-roll our charge distance. :P i dunno man. Nine times out of ten im using my JP for the movement, and therefore dont get the HoW or the rerolls. :P Same for me, I almost always move 12'' and get a save charge, failing a long charge is way too dangerous even with the reroll. :/ Also, you have to get into base contact to get HoW.. the only case where I use JP for assaulting with some regularity is when charging into difficult terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I suppose it's worth mentioning here, then that our Jump Packs actually make us crazy-awesome in close combat to begin with in this edition between Hammer of Wrath and getting to re-roll our charge distance. :P i dunno man. Nine times out of ten im using my JP for the movement, and therefore dont get the HoW or the rerolls. :P I have to agree. Not only that, only granting Hammer of Wrath to models that are in base contact makes it less useful as well. With a full squad of 10 Assault Marines, I usually only get 5 at most in base. When I do use Hammer of Wrath, I count myself lucky if I can kill 2 models. It's a nice bonus don't get me wrong, but it's too situational and not reliable enough to make it a game changer. Here's a thought. If Blood Angels are the masters of the lightning strike and the Jump Pack, maybe in our next Codex we'll always be able to do both. That'll be worth something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I'll be a dissenting voice. Hybrid isn't the way to go if you want to make a competitive BA list. Neither is standing off and shooting at 24". Why ? 'cos SW,GK and C:SM do it better. Blood Angels have good shooting at <12" backed up by assault, with the speed and durability to get you there and concentrate all of your forces on a smaller part of your opponents. I rarely see lists that take advantage of this. Hybrid and shooty isn't bad per see - it's perfectly fine for most of the fluffy lists I see here, just not playing to the strengths of the BA codex. Speed really is a boon for BA. Not because they've got any faster - everyone else has gotten much slower with the changes to transports under 6th and the increasing focus on infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I'll be a dissenting voice. Hybrid isn't the way to go if you want to make a competitive BA list. Hybrid and shooty isn't bad per see - it's perfectly fine for most of the fluffy lists I see here, just not playing to the strengths of the BA codex. Most of the winning lists I've seen have been hybrid lists. Assault just doesn't cut it anymore in my experience. In any case, I'm intrigued and would like to see what you would consider a good list at 1000, 1500, and 2000 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 i dunno man. Nine times out of ten im using my JP for the movement, and therefore dont get the HoW or the rerolls. ^_^ Throne, not another rule I missed. A THOUSAND CURSES BE UPON THIS DAMNABLE RULEBOOK Not the rules, though. I'm pretty much fine with the rules overall. But, seriously, another one...? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Here's a thought. If Blood Angels are the masters of the lightning strike and the Jump Pack, maybe in our next Codex we'll always be able to do both. That'll be worth something! IF we get a new codex this edition, this would be a pretty awesome rule for BA. Or maybe the old Black Rage rule for BA which simply stated that every BA is getting +1 S and I on the turn they charge, circumventing the new FC rule. This just needs to be implemented into Sanguinary Priests somehow. :P Snorri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy12009 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I've been experimenting with 5 DC with jump packs as a scoring troop hunter. Use the jump move and cover to get in close, regular move when im in range, shoot, and HoW on the charge. I haven't play tested it enough to make a final assessment but a little shooting to take out one or two models followed by HoW taking out another couple followed by the normal attacks has worked well so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkMark Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Because the design team multitasks as artists, white dwarf writers, sculpters, etc the play test phase (according to gw) relies heavily on players at bugmans bar. This means most of their input is second hand. Personally, I wish they had a team of beta testers like they do for software engineers, but that just isn't going to happen. I think there are plenty of players around the world who would play test GW's games for free. They would be happy to provide the service, knowing they had blessed themselves [even if they are not interested in 'the community'] for future games of 40K that made sense and was better in balance. That is even with an extremely grimdark pessimistic view of said players :) I think some would love that chance to go through written rules too. GW gets something for free, the testers get a better edition, people stop venting on GW and/or leaving GW, and we all get a more slick game. Seems like wins all round to me! :tu: That would mean leaks, and GW would rather put out a poor product than share info ;) . See the chaos codex, or any actually, for proof. The Hobbit has nothing to do with the rumour clamp down before some one spits that nonsense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 IF we get a new codex this edition... I don't think we will. I don't expect anything in the next 5 years except access to some of the new Space Marine toys when that book is released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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