How do you find Blood Angels in 6th

[CitadelArmyGuy]

i dunno man. Nine times out of ten im using my JP for the movement, and therefore dont get the HoW or the rerolls. :tu:

Totally there with ya. I always jump to 1" away, then fire pistols/meltaguns. Pistols occur before Overwatch, HoW occurs after. I'd rather get as close as possible then not worry about shooting myself out of assault-range.

[MadMek83]

Its all tactics, first I was struggling with my Furiosos or DC dreads, now I just use them to take overwatch and have my DC or assault marines then pile into combat after dreadnought cahrges first in. In Furioso case: What krak grenades? And as its my understanding if you pileinto combat with troops and dreadnought, then you force oppoenent fight as they cannot use "our weapons are useless"-rule. Anything with hightoughness or such would also be good to remove overwtch before piling in with your primary assault elements.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

So we all agree that melee has suffered wounds of a thousand small cuts. Overwatch didn't hurt melee too much by itself, Random Charge Length didn't hurt melee too much by itself, shifting meta towards anti-infantry shooting hasn't hurt melee too much by itself, Furious Charge nerf didn't hu--- wait no that one did hurt badly :D

 

So things we've talked about to mitigate the new disadvantages include Mass Concentration through Mobility, additional Force Multiplication from Support Characters, and triggering the more dangerous Overwatches using Dreadnoughts/Mephiston. Also we can game against the Meta by using Fast Predators to screen ahead of our advance so that Line of Sight cannot be drawn against the Jump Marines following behind in support--- It's a good old fashioned Armored Blitzkrieg B). Additionally there are ways to metagame the Challenge system.

 

What else is there? What elements totally new to 6th that mitigate melee disadvantages? Terrain Placement. You see, it is no secret that Shooting is still King in 6th Edition, and we've discussed it's dominance has actually increased. Our only recourse is to fight back against the system with the system's own tools.

 

If the terrain-pool where you play does not have any pieces which can easily hide 10 Assault Marines from Line of Sight, then make your own terrain and keep it with your army. Right now I can see I've lost all the fluff and fun gamers... :D But if you play against friends who have no compunction against taking 20 Psycannons in a fun game, then you should have no problems making your own terrain tailored to fit your army lists.

 

The terrain idea won't help in the vast majority of Tournaments of course-- but hullpoint-dead Rhinos/Razorbacks function in much the same capacity, which reinforces a hybrid approach. Many tournaments have unique scoring which will discard the 'First Blood' VP, so feel free to utilize Light Vehicles in events like that.

[Jorre]

Well I tried my 10 man dc and it worked quite well. Managed to charge and kill a blood thirster! How ever they were wiped out the next turn by 10 flamers and 2 demon princes with breath of chaos.

 

My poor tactics aside, they worked very well. Killing a blood thirster in assault ain't an easy job. So I was impressed. The amount of firepower they took after that was super impressive as well! They killed a big BA then distracted 1/2 his army for a turn giving me time to knock out the bulk of his force.

 

I ended up winning 5 to 2 and I got to assault something so I am happy!

[MadMek83]

So we all agree that melee has suffered wounds of a thousand small cuts. Overwatch didn't hurt melee too much by itself, Random Charge Length didn't hurt melee too much by itself, shifting meta towards anti-infantry shooting hasn't hurt melee too much by itself, Furious Charge nerf didn't hu--- wait no that one did hurt badly :lol:

 

So things we've talked about to mitigate the new disadvantages include Mass Concentration through Mobility, additional Force Multiplication from Support Characters, and triggering the more dangerous Overwatches using Dreadnoughts/Mephiston. Also we can game against the Meta by using Fast Predators to screen ahead of our advance so that Line of Sight cannot be drawn against the Jump Marines following behind in support--- It's a good old fashioned Armored Blitzkrieg B). Additionally there are ways to metagame the Challenge system.

 

What else is there? What elements totally new to 6th that mitigate melee disadvantages? Terrain Placement. You see, it is no secret that Shooting is still King in 6th Edition, and we've discussed it's dominance has actually increased. Our only recourse is to fight back against the system with the system's own tools.

 

If the terrain-pool where you play does not have any pieces which can easily hide 10 Assault Marines from Line of Sight, then make your own terrain and keep it with your army. Right now I can see I've lost all the fluff and fun gamers... :) But if you play against friends who have no compunction against taking 20 Psycannons in a fun game, then you should have no problems making your own terrain tailored to fit your army lists.

 

The terrain idea won't help in the vast majority of Tournaments of course-- but hullpoint-dead Rhinos/Razorbacks function in much the same capacity, which reinforces a hybrid approach. Many tournaments have unique scoring which will discard the 'First Blood' VP, so feel free to utilize Light Vehicles in events like that.

 

True about Armour Blitzkrieg. BA's are able to put more Preds table than other chapter and all are fast. 3 Baals and 3 Regular preds, puts 6 av 13 with 3 HP's each, amking it 18 hull points on table. Being fast vehicle can move 12" and shoot two weapons bull ballistics, its mean. Most people bring few lascannons and few melta's generally but rarely people have enough tools to deal 6 av 13's effectively and fast enough (Necrons aside with DE wyches). Somerthing I like to try but its just dang expensive as I would need to get 2 more Baals and 3 regular preds. Maybe in future ?

[Chaplain Admetus]

True about Armour Blitzkrieg. BA's are able to put more Preds table than other chapter and all are fast. 3 Baals and 3 Regular preds, puts 6 av 13 with 3 HP's each, amking it 18 hull points on table. Being fast vehicle can move 12" and shoot two weapons bull ballistics, its mean. Most people bring few lascannons and few melta's generally but rarely people have enough tools to deal 6 av 13's effectively and fast enough (Necrons aside with DE wyches). Somerthing I like to try but its just dang expensive as I would need to get 2 more Baals and 3 regular preds. Maybe in future ?

 

Gets worse than that... I played against an army at Throne of Skulls with 31 hull points (3 Baal, 2 Pred, 1 Whirlie, 3 Razor, Landy). And that's just at 1500; imagine what you can do at higher points values...

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Gets worse than that... I played against an army at Throne of Skulls with 31 hull points (3 Baal, 2 Pred, 1 Whirlie, 3 Razor, Landy). And that's just at 1500; imagine what you can do at higher points values...

True, true. There's a line though, which creates two different types of lists. Full-AV with Razorbacks is a mechanized List, or just Preds screening for jump Assault Marines is a hybrid assault list.

 

First Blood considerations aside, I'm curious how a 'poor mans' hybrid screen would do. Instead of Predators, using empty Razorbacks while its 5-men go man a quadgun, objective squat, or climb into a Raven for endgame objective grab (if you feel the opponent's AA won't bring it down). The thing with Razorbacks is they tend to turn into terrain rather than explode-- which means they still function mostly as intended. Also they can travel sideways, gaining important inches of blocked Line of Sight.

 

I feel the Armored Screen would work best with Sanguinary Guard honestly-- their combat power is tied to far fewer models, and so hiding them from Line of Sight behind the Armor wall would be far easier.

[Warboss Gunney]

Don't lose heart. Assault is still good if backed up properly. You need units to whittle down the opposing unit before your marines assault. Thats why I roll with this army.

 

2500pts 1HQ 3 Elites 4 Troops 3 Fast Attack

 

1x The Sanguinor

4x Sanguinary Priests w/Jump Pack

10x Assault Marines w/Powerfist&Storm Shield & 2xMeltaguns

10x Assault Marines w/Powerfist&Storm Shield & 2xMeltaguns

10x Assault Marines w/Powerfist&Storm Shield & 2xMeltaguns

10x Assault Marines w/Powerfist&Storm Shield & 2xMeltaguns

2x Land Speeders w/2xMulti-Melta and 2xTyphoon Missle Launcher

2x Land Speeders w/2xMulti-Melta and 2xTyphoon Missle Launcher

1x Blood Angels Biker Squad 500pts

-3x Bikers 90pts

-2x Bikers w/ 2xMeltaguns 70pts

-1x Biker Sergeant w/Power Sword & Melta Bombs 45pts

-1x Attack Bike w/Multi-Melta 50pts

-1x Caplain Biker w/Melta Bombs 140pts

-1x Sanguinary Priest Biker w/Power Sword & Melta Bombs 100pts

[CitadelArmyGuy]

@Warboss Gunney, I want to be very constructive in my reply-- because I really don't think that's a very good 2500pt list.

 

But discussions about the list itself aside, I'm not sure how the list highlights your point. Because your point is totally correct-- a hybrid army that uses shooting to soften pre-charge targets is extremely valid. But the list you shared has an anemic amount of shooting at the 2500pt level. A 2500pt Imperial Guard or Grey Knight raw shooting firepower list can blow this one off the table without even really trying.

 

The bikers are an extravagant waste of points, if you exchanged them all for 500pts of Multimelta Attackbikes then it would appear much more attractive. Also, a separate Sanguinary Priest for each squad is generally a poor idea. Those 4 Land Speeders should switch to 6 Speeders all with double-heavy bolters for the less points value-- that way you can actually soften opposing Heavy Weapons teams from range, which are the greatest threats to your 'Red Tide' approach.

[Warboss Gunney]

@Warboss Gunney, I want to be very constructive in my reply-- because I really don't think that's a very good 2500pt list.

 

But discussions about the list itself aside, I'm not sure how the list highlights your point. Because your point is totally correct-- a hybrid army that uses shooting to soften pre-charge targets is extremely valid. But the list you shared has an anemic amount of shooting at the 2500pt level. A 2500pt Imperial Guard or Grey Knight raw shooting firepower list can blow this one off the table without even really trying.

 

The bikers are an extravagant waste of points, if you exchanged them all for 500pts of Multimelta Attackbikes then it would appear much more attractive. Also, a separate Sanguinary Priest for each squad is generally a poor idea. Those 4 Land Speeders should switch to 6 Speeders all with double-heavy bolters for the less points value-- that way you can actually soften opposing Heavy Weapons teams from range, which are the greatest threats to your 'Red Tide' approach.

 

I like my list, its fun and suits my style. It works well for me. People would say a 6 man Jump Pack Death Company with 2 Power Axes, 3 Power Swords and Lemartes was a waste of points, until I took out 2-4 units with them alone.

 

If I swapped out the Bike Squad it would be for 3 squads of Devastators with Heavy Bolters on a Skyshield Landing Pad furled up.

 

Plus if I wanted a shooty army I wouldn't play Blood Angels. I would be play Necrons. I like assault though and despise shooting.

 

Also I would deepstrike units in the back. Also I fail to see how a Saguinary priest is a waste of points. They are a MUST in my book.

[ianj253]

They are a must but there is no need to have one in each unit. If another unit is within 6 inches of the SP they also gain his benefits.

[SamaNagol]

I dont think anyone would say a 6 man DC squad with JP and Axes is a waste tbh.

[I am Legion]

I have had a chance to play a few games now in 6th. I have to say we should not discount CC so easily just yet. Tyranid Genestealer/Warrior/Hormagaunt lists are still very fast and hit extremely hard in CC. Hard to counter with an all Infantry Force, which worked fantastically I might add in 5th :)

 

I have found that a healthy mix of tanks, bikes, and even Land speeders with Jump Infantry is going to be the new path (until I find something dirtier to exploit). For Blood Angels, this is particularily great because of the mass predators we can take. Melta guns are not exactly a thing of the past, but Plasma really does seem the way to go. I don't think Blood Angels should sitch from Meltas though. Our DC with JPs and PWs are certainly a powerful unit now. When you have a couple carried in Ravens, your opponent suddenly forgets about the AV wall and Attack bikes headed towards them. Just as before, BAs can put alot of pressure for enemies to split their fire, since we advance quickly and have many hard hitting units that need to be dealt with immediatly.

 

Someone mentioned a Linebreaker list here so I decided to work on my own, and it really works. I tried this list out once VS necrons, and again VS Grey Knights. There is so much firepower coming from this wall that both opponents forces took heavy casualties each round (I didn't even bother to capture objectives :P )

 

Captain - PW

 

5xTerm - Asscan

LRR - MM

 

10xDC - Bolters, PF (in Raven)

10xRAS - PF, 2xMG, Rhino

 

Baal - HB

Baal - HB

3xA.Bike - MM

 

Vindicator

Vindicator

S.Raven

 

2000 Points. Not much in terms of objective capture but the idea is to deny your opponent of them as well. These are used to move all together for the first 2 turns and then, as needed, split to counters.

 

Sanguinary priests are a waste of points in my opinion now. Save on a 5+.....good luck....Not saying they should be removed completely but I'd only use one if it was part of the honour guard.

 

We need to shoot hard, and charge hard. I generally keep the rhino with RAS behind bigger tanks until I need it, usually by turn 2-3.

 

power swords are awesome still. PFs are still also needed. It is unfortunate that BA are such an expensive army, which means we need to use their speed to advance and hit hard, cutting whole units per turn. Always aim for 2-3 full units destroyed per turn. 3 is a stretch, I know, but thats why we have to keep the force together and focus fire.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

The past week there's something new I thought about regarding melee and synergies.

 

So the First rule of 'Fight Club' is localized concentration. The Second rule of Fight Club is localized concentration.

 

I feel we can all agree about that. Force Multiplication coupled with Mobility are two excellent ways that Blood Angels can acheive this.

 

But one thing I noticed when I wrote up my article on Formations was that a large difficulty of spread formations is the new Pile-In rules. In 5th, Pile-In was 6" and it happened before any fighting. Now it's only 3" and happens at a Model's Initiative Step. I got to coach a new SM-IG player in the use of Formations and helped him through a game where he was facing a Vindicator+Defiler CSM that included Khorne Zerkers and Raptors. I immediately saw the connection:

 

Blast weaponry synergizes with Melee Units, because it forces the opponent to deploy spread out much greater than they normally would. Ergo, achieving concentration becomes that much easier, and return damage is highly mitigated as they lose attacks from a greater number of unengaged models.

 

I'd say this gives a +1 to Vindicators or heck even Whirlwinds. Kudos to Phrack, I've been PM with him about BA-IG lists and his inclusion of a Manticore clicked the lightbulb on for me.

[SamaNagol]

Ironic as I have been including Vindicators in my 1750 and 1850 lists. Simply due to the versatility and the AV13 hulls adding to my Baals and Raven.

 

This cements the decision.

[Bartali]

I wouldn't touch blasts (especially S10 AP2 large blasts) when using an infantry based assault force. Scattering blasts when you want to be up close with your opponent make me twitchy. They'd be fine compliment for a shooty Las/Plas Razor list though.

 

I'd argue that fire support in general is less important for a BA assault list in sixth. If you want to shoot at planes you'll need something of course, but otherwise I'd rather spend the points on more assault power.

[Ushtarador]

But one thing I noticed when I wrote up my article on Formations was that a large difficulty of spread formations is the new Pile-In rules. In 5th, Pile-In was 6" and it happened before any fighting. Now it's only 3" and happens at a Model's Initiative Step.

 

Blast weaponry synergizes with Melee Units, because it forces the opponent to deploy spread out much greater than they normally would. Ergo, achieving concentration becomes that much easier, and return damage is highly mitigated as they lose attacks from a greater number of unengaged models.

 

 

As I experienced on the tournament this weekend (Battlereps are in the making), this can go both ways though. I almost got shafted very hard when I encountered an opponent with Typhus and a 10man terminator squad, mark of nurgle. I managed to bring him into a position where I could shoot and charge with mephi, 2 assault squads, a raven and sanguinary guard. However, I killed 5 termies with shooting and subsequently did not manage to reach anything except typhus on the charge, who of course issued a challenge. His powerfists moved in at I1 and luckily missed all attacks, but I wasted a whole assault squad, a power axe priest and 2 SG because I could not pile in far enough.. I won the cc in the end, but it was unnecessarily closer than it should have been. Be sure to watch out for those things when you try to crush a deathstar next time.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Yes excellent point Ushtarador! The blast weaponry forcing spread deployment can go both ways when it comes to concentrating on a single unit. Now, when it comes time to actually make the charge, often times you don't want to shoot them at all. The principle of concentration synergizing with blasts still applies, because you don't even need to USE the weapon-- just the fact that it exists will make the opponent spread out.

 

In melee, wounds can be allocated all the way to the back even if those models aren't engaged in that melee. I know you know that, it is just one of the new nuances of 6th edition I see people getting wrong a lot.

 

And the final largest point is that while useful to make Models within Units spread out, MOST importantly Blasts make Units in their Deployment Zone spread out--- that's what concentration really means anyway!

 

Not to criticize you mate, not whatsoever-- If I was staring down 10 Nurgle Terminators I'd probably make the same call just out of irrational reputation of T5 2+ armor overriding my objectivity. I would shoot the living snot out of them too; I'd like to say once i realized I removed two or three then I'd stop to allow the chargers better success, but I probably wouldn't hahaha. Mindgames and Unit Reputation-fear can be a crazy metagame in itself.

[Ushtarador]

Well, the main problem was the defensive grenades of typhus taking away my extra attack and more importantly my furious charge... so I needed to kill as much as possible in the shooting phase to have a chance of beating them in cc; I didn't realize that I wouldn't get into contact with the normal termies anymore with my guys as well, only after I rolled for charge distance ^^

It _usually_ shouldn't be a problem, but with a unit such as this you can make your life unnecessarily hard if you don't think about it before you move :o

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

I recently played a game where I placed a 9 Marine Sterguard Squad w/ 2 x Combi Meltas and a PF along with a librarian in a Land Raider. They did quite well when I dumped them right into the path of a Chaos Terminator unit. The Librarians blood lance and the Sternguard's firepower proved very awesome indeed. Then the follow turn they used the gets hot ammo and severely shot up a plague marine squad.

 

Alongside their firepower was the Land Raider's firepower and a Landspeeder with twin HBs. The Twin HB pattern Landspeeder is a good harrasser and annoyance to an enemy and has to be dealt with in some cases as it can begin to take a tole on their forces.

[Morticon]

The Librarians blood lance and the Sternguard's firepower proved very awesome indeed.

 

 

Question, why do you rate Blood Lance when it only does one wound? Is it the Ap1? Or an application of the power im missing?

[Topknot11]

I bought BA's so that I could play a power armored assault fest. Im stuck looking at tons of guns and while I could build a BA army for shooting, I have a large selection of Guard that are better at that all the way around. Right now 6th edition is totally based on shooting and large blocks of infantry.

Hopefully the new codexs will fix alot of this and give us back a way to run and assault in the same round. Cause the way it is now to me BA's, Orks, Nids, and other really assault oriented armies are just flat out screwed. Not saying they cant win just saying it got a WHOLE LOT HARDER. I thought this edition was supposed to be Skywalker and bring balance to the game but so far seems to me that if your not playing a shooty REALLY shooty army then pack it up and go to the house.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I'll quote myself about my thoughts on the matter:

To begin, Shooting is King. That was true in 5th ed, and 6th Edition widened the gap. I suppose you can call me a romantic, perhaps I'm too in love with the Blood Angel Way of Battle-- but the fact is if you play Relic's computer game 'Space Marine'... the best bits are melee :( I understand my refusal to conform to raw firepower lists relegates me to an upper mid-level player at the best; I'll never take home a GT or anything. But we all play this game for a reason, and I play to my love of Maneuver Warfare. Maneuver Warfare requires many many more layers of additional tactics and strategies in order to be successful, so I really get my kicks from playing out a game so skillfully that anyone staring at the raw list-matchups would think "theres no way..." ;) Also, Shooting-Maneuver Warfare is probably more successful, but perhaps I'm just a glutton for punishment? Because playing Melee-Maneuver Warfare successfully requires ultimate skill and precise decision-making.... because its so hard is probably why I love it. Great melee players are 'better' players than great shooting players, because their game is so much harder. The level of decisions they have to make are compounded three-fold more than a simple Shooting player's decisions. They'll still lose in equal-skill matchups of course, I understand that. I guess I just have to hope to be better than my opponents, despite the uphill battle. ;)

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

The Librarians blood lance and the Sternguard's firepower proved very awesome indeed.

 

 

Question, why do you rate Blood Lance when it only does one wound? Is it the Ap1? Or an application of the power im missing?

 

The lance hits anything in its path at Str 8 Ap1. I tend to think vehicle only, but massed 3+ or heavy troops it can hurt or mow them down.

 

Considering I was fighting Death Guard Terminators, their Toughness 5 stopped the strength 8, but the AP1 brought down 2 of them.

 

I was able to get the Blood lance to strike through three terminator models. The Strength 8 helps, but the AP1 cuts through any armour, plus it knocks terminators down to their 5+ inv save.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Sorry Assassin, Blood Lance deals one hit per Unit (not model) in its path.