How do you find Blood Angels in 6th

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

Sorry Assassin, Blood Lance deals one hit per Unit (not model) in its path.

 

Nice. I tend to read rules hastily at the moment and over look things at times. I'll have to remember this and rethink the power in general.

 

Still, the bolters worked.

[Morticon]

Sorry Assassin, Blood Lance deals one hit per Unit (not model) in its path.

 

Yup yup! That's why I asked. I thought maybe you were making that mistake. :)

[Chaplain Admetus]

Was kind of hoping it'd be FAQd to be a 'beam' with the new psychic power types, something along the lines of molten beam from pyromancy, but it'd be a bit too good if it was.

[Arkkinite]

Blast weaponry synergizes with Melee Units, because it forces the opponent to deploy spread out much greater than they normally would. Ergo, achieving concentration becomes that much easier, and return damage is highly mitigated as they lose attacks from a greater number of unengaged models.

 

Citadel, I'm a new player so I don't quite understand what you mean by "achieving concentration". Yes i know the mere existance of blast weapons make people spread their units out instead clumping them together. But how does this help our fighting? Assuming the assaulting force (hopefully us Blood Angels) pile in first, do you mean we could engage a smaller proportion of their squad with a larger proportion of our squad? Does that matter, cuz it means we strike at a higher Int. anyway.

 

I know i probably got something wrong. Please enlighten me.

[Polythemus]

QUOTE (CitadelArmyGuy @ Nov 5 2012, 10:01 AM)

Blast weaponry synergizes with Melee Units, because it forces the opponent to deploy spread out much greater than they normally would. Ergo, achieving concentration becomes that much easier, and return damage is highly mitigated as they lose attacks from a greater number of unengaged models.

 

"Citadel, I'm a new player so I don't quite understand what you mean by "achieving concentration". Yes i know the mere existance of blast weapons make people spread their units out instead clumping them together. But how does this help our fighting? Assuming the assaulting force (hopefully us Blood Angels) pile in first, do you mean we could engage a smaller proportion of their squad with a larger proportion of our squad? Does that matter, cuz it means we strike at a higher Int. anyway.

 

I know i probably got something wrong. Please enlighten me."

 

First off i gotta say i love love love all the tactics dicussions i find on the BA forum these days. Helps to keep the brain sharp even if I cant play as much as I'd like. If i might id like to take a "look out sir" for the question directed at citadel... Arkkinite you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Concentration generally means that you exert more of your force against less of your opponents. This limits the ability for that unit to be supported or retaliate effectively before it dies. It could be acheived 2 ways either your density is greater cause you have two assault squads versus a clumped tac squad, or your one densely packed assault squad attacks a single conga line tact squad. Now im pretty sure your reference to strike at a higher initiative is a question that has been faq'd because assault marines are all at i4 now. You have my sympathies... But back to your question. A spread out (low concentration force) can be assaulted from a side where its density is lowest. This way even if your enemies init is the same as yours, the pile in move may make it so some of the opponents models wont make it into the 2" zone of models in base-to-base effectively limiting their ability to hurt you and protecting you. Whats more is you can still hurt them as long as all your attacks are done at the same initiative. That is what is meant by using concentration.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Could not have said it better Polythemus, exactly. So instead, pretty pictures. :blink:

[Arkkinite]

Preatty pictures~ :D

 

I forgot about pile in move is only 3". Thanks a lot both of ya!

[CitadelArmyGuy]

JamesI or Morticon, do we want to sticky this thread in the Blood Angels Resource thread? There's a lot of useful discussion for Blood Angels in 6th Edition.

[JamesI]

Good idea CAG. Done.

[Emperors Immortals]

Great thread :)

 

As a long time CSM player ive been using my limited time to really comb through the options available over there, and i'm confident saying BA are still THE best all round army in the MEQ dept.

 

The last 3 weeks have seen me run 4 CSM lists fairly heavily (no batreps as they were all very rough) as well as my usual Stern/tac/termie list and the BA are still on top, next thing ill try is an AV saturation list which i think we can do the best still.

 

Im looking now to including IG allies (prob Krieg as a Steel Legion stand in because i love the minis sooo much ), so what would we say are must takes? Aegis i always a solid choice, but should BA man it with Dev or IG? or even scouts with rifles???

 

Great tactical discussion BTW guys :) :) :)

[Drunken Angel]

Great thread :P

 

Im looking now to including IG allies (prob Krieg as a Steel Legion stand in because i love the minis sooo much ), so what would we say are must takes? Aegis i always a solid choice, but should BA man it with Dev or IG? or even scouts with rifles???

 

Great tactical discussion BTW guys :P :) :)

 

I have used scouts and dont like them, the aegis may even be abandoned after reserves enter play, you could put 3 Death Company (60 points) a combat squaded RAS and meltagun (110 points) or even 5 tacticals (90 points) on it. The scouts run at 75 points bare bones but the DC are the cheapest and either of the PA units offer better close range shooting and in the case of the RAS better mobility.

[knife&fork]

I love when people depend on the Aegis.

 

Makes it sweeter when you push him off it and turn the emplaced weapon against his own units. :P

I think that's my favorite thing to pull off with my podded DC. Real easy too since they are relentless.

 

The downside to manning it with DC is that you can't take any precision shots.

[Emperors Immortals]

Hmm, food for thought there. I guess I was thinking of the aegis because CSM lists are currently being written around JuggerLord with Axe and bodyguard OR DP with mace and AA is always being recommended a Aegis with cultists. Myself I rely on 2 Havoc autocannon squads which so far has worked on everythign less then AV 13.

 

So, im going to drop the notion of an aegis to add more AB or dualHB speeders and support a much more aggressive in your face style play.

 

My podded DC are currently replaced with my Tac squad with either locater for termie support (w/ priest) or RAS backup. The DC are slogging ATM but i think ill get them ther old pod back.

[Drunken Angel]

I love when people depend on the Aegis.

 

Makes it sweeter when you push him off it and turn the emplaced weapon against his own units. ;)

I think that's my favorite thing to pull off with my podded DC. Real easy too since they are relentless.

 

The downside to manning it with DC is that you can't take any precision shots.

 

 

I dont put a weapon on the aegis I put a coms link on to give re-rolls on the Baals and Ravens in reserve once the models are on the board its job is done.

70 points for a barricade and radio you ask? How many points can a ravens shooting take off the board arrivng 2nd turn innstead of 3rd?

[Brother Chris]

Now getting more of a feel. Turns out I'm not allowed to start with the Storm Raven on the board, even if I'm not using it as a flyer.

 

I've found the fact power weapons are different a bit of an irritation, as most of my models held different designs for aestethic reasons only. Most hampered is Dante, wasting his amazing initiative on a slow axe. But, fighting Chaos Marines I found the captain came into his own. Every chaos unit has some character in it who will challenge you. Apart from the special characters, our Captain is the only one who can be equipped with a power sword and thus take advantage of his high initiative, while still cutting through space marine power armour. And consequently the only one of my HQ who could reliably dispatch these Chaos champions before they got their attacks in.

 

I did lots of assaulting. Hammer of wrath from the jump-packers is nice, and the furious charge type things are good, even though different.

[Erasmus of Baal]

I've found the fact power weapons are different a bit of an irritation, as most of my models held different designs for aestethic reasons only. Most hampered is Dante, wasting his amazing initiative on a slow axe.

There was another discussion recently on that particular point. Dante's Initiative isn't wasted because it gives him and the unit he is attached to a guaranteed Hit & Run every turn, making him pretty awesome paired with a Sanguinary Priest or anything else that benefits from charging.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

... or anything else that benefits from charging.

You mean the whole BA codex? ;D No but seriously, I need to try Dante. On paper he seems awesome but I just haven't gotten around to using him yet. Hit and Run is simply awesome for Furious Chargers.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I've found the fact power weapons are different a bit of an irritation, as most of my models held different designs for aestethic reasons only. Most hampered is Dante, wasting his amazing initiative on a slow axe.

There was another discussion recently on that particular point. Dante's Initiative isn't wasted because it gives him and the unit he is attached to a guaranteed Hit & Run every turn, making him pretty awesome paired with a Sanguinary Priest or anything else that benefits from charging.

 

Quick note: the Hit and Run is not garanteed despite Dante's initiative 6 because any roll of 6 for a characteristics test is an autofail, just like a 1 is an autofail for hit, wound and armour save rolls.

 

Another benefit of Dante's init is that when rolling for Sweeping Advances, the highest initiative in the unit is used. Not many units can escapage being cut down by Dante.

[knife&fork]

Going from 6 S5 I7 attacks ignoring armor and FnP to 6 S6 I1 AP2 attacks is a pretty big deal. Not to mention how much easier it was to hide an IC in 5th.

 

Characters like Dante and Lemartes could mulch entire units by themselves in 5th and yet you still didn't see them in most lists. A slightly improved HnR and chance of sweeping hardly makes up for the loss in raw killing power.

[Jorre]

I hated Dante's Iniative at first to... But itsw actually an advantage striking last a lot of the time! You can hide Dante at the back of the squad during the high enemy iniative steps! Then use his 3 inch move at iniative 1 to engage what ever model you choose! If the enemy has a power weapon or squad leader of some kind you make sure that character is closest to Dante so that you have to allocate wounds to that model first!

 

Your opponent doesnt get to pick which models take the wounds he must take the closest now so you can use his low iniative to pick your targets without exposing him to enemy weapons. Its really quite effective. THe only loss is reducing the amount of enemy attacks before they strike.

[Erasmus of Baal]

You mean the whole BA codex?

Yes, actually, I did. :)

 

Characters like Dante and Lemartes could mulch entire units by themselves in 5th and yet you still didn't see them in most lists. A slightly improved HnR and chance of sweeping hardly makes up for the loss in raw killing power.

I would disagree. Because our main advantage is mobility, the strategy of the game is easily argued (as CitadelArmyGuy has done a few times) as being far more important for the Blood Angels than for other codices. If you want raw killing power, take Mephiston or Space Wolf allies. For the Blood Angels' mobile playstyle, it can be VERY useful to get the extra moving-around that Dante provides.

 

Is Dante as good as before? Maybe not. Am I still taking him? Absolutely! IMO, Dante offers WAY too many strategic benefits to ignore.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Is Dante as good as before? Maybe not. Am I still taking him? Absolutely! IMO, Dante offers WAY too many strategic benefits to ignore.

 

With great strategic benefits comes great incoming overwatch fire, though. Everytime you HnR, you risk getting shot to bits. Especially when there are some special weapons around that haven't been taken out in melèe the round before. Whithout some ablative bodies in a SG or HG, to name two very common Dante builds, I wouldn't like to risk being shot at twice by one unit, to be honest.

 

 

Snorri

[JamesI]

Is Dante as good as before? Maybe not. Am I still taking him? Absolutely! IMO, Dante offers WAY too many strategic benefits to ignore.

 

With great strategic benefits comes great incoming overwatch fire, though. Everytime you HnR, you risk getting shot to bits. Especially when there are some special weapons around that haven't been taken out in melèe the round before. Whithout some ablative bodies in a SG or HG, to name two very common Dante builds, I wouldn't like to risk being shot at twice by one unit, to be honest.

 

 

Snorri

You can work around that.

 

I find when I want to assault, I almost always have 1 attack bike nearby. That attack bike assaults first, eats the overwatch shots, then Dante and his unit walk in and kill the enemy.

[Drunken Angel]

Is Dante as good as before? Maybe not. Am I still taking him? Absolutely! IMO, Dante offers WAY too many strategic benefits to ignore.

 

With great strategic benefits comes great incoming overwatch fire, though. Everytime you HnR, you risk getting shot to bits. Especially when there are some special weapons around that haven't been taken out in melèe the round before. Whithout some ablative bodies in a SG or HG, to name two very common Dante builds, I wouldn't like to risk being shot at twice by one unit, to be honest.

 

 

Snorri

You can work around that.

 

I find when I want to assault, I almost always have 1 attack bike nearby. That attack bike assaults first, eats the overwatch shots, then Dante and his unit walk in and kill the enemy.

 

That is a great idea Mort has anyone tried hit and run running Dante and DC instead of SG or HG?

 

I am considering resurrecting Dante as a strategic commander using Death Company, the times I have run Dante he has done well enough but the one problem is he risks a power fist to the face in challenges. I have lost him because I accept the challenge take a wound fail a 4++ invun die. I guess you can decline the challenge and Dante lives refusing challenges does not affect anything but striking blows and leadership.

I think he may be better off in a DC with hit and run. Take Dante out of the combat and look at the DC vs SG

5 SG one with a power fist plus priest = 20 attacks with master crafted on 4 models = 300 pts

6 DC with JP's one with a power fist the rest with power weapons is 29 attacks = 310 pts

 

SG weapons are mastercrafted the DC are WS5

You could lose 1 or 2 DC on the return blows break combat and still charge in with 20 attacks next turn again. You lose 1 or 2 SG and your attacks drop to 14, lose the priest and its looking worse the DC just fight on regardless. Even though Dante makes SG troops and DC cant score merely contesting is often enough a unit like this should not be directed/expected to do anything but kill scoring troops if its still fighting troops at end game chances are its contesting an objective also.

 

I wonder how 6 DC plus Dante would work on hit and run. Better than 5 SG, priest and Dante. Many armies are working on getting some AP2 shooting to beat TDA type 2+ save builds. DC don't care they are 3+ anyway nor do they care as SG do when the priest gets sniped out. The only build with common melee troops that can deny FNP to DC in combat is Grey Knights with AP3 force weapons.

 

In a pinch DC can do a good job of protecting troops if they have to. I have put 6 DC against 5 TH/SS termies, with an epistolary libby casting foreboding 4++ invun and maybe divination (one or both I cant remember) on them. They cleaned the termies out with no losses and also ran the same squad up against an avatar tarpitting and killing that too for no losses.

[JamesI]

well, my Dante is usually attached to RAS. I have yet to run DC in a Dante list, so I've only ever attached Dante to RAS and SG.