Stormravens

[Reclusiarch Darius]

So, my local Chaos player is very likely to field a Forgefiend or two in his new CSM+Daemons force (my reaction to its rules probably didn't help).

 

I've been thinking Paladins have kinda had their time in the sun, at least in my lists. My Raven has been languishing for a while, but I think its probably a good time to get back to using it. Flyer rules if nothing else have redeemed it in my eyes.

 

Pros:

- It Flys (hooray, 6's to hit)

- It has two anti-tank guns

- It carries a full assault unit to the enemy

- It doesn't really compete with anything else in its slot

- Mindstrikes asplode psykers I'm likely to face, now that psychic hoods are useless garbage (poor Librarian)

Cons:

- Its over 200 points, not including cost of cargo

 

How are everyone else finding Ravens in the new edition? If you've fought new Chaos, I'd especially like to hear your thoughts.

 

FYI, I'm likely to be transporting either Death-Cult+Crusader combo meal, or Purifiers. Terminators I can footslog, Paladins as I mentioned are a little too easy to take out.

[spartan249]

Stormies with Saders/Sins inside seems like the best way to go. They don't have grenades so cover is an issue, but I guess it's fine since Saders are there to take the hits.

 

To be honest, I'm a bit more perturbed by Maulerfiends. Forgefiends are pretty much the same old same old, I can handle a 200+ point unit like that (It's basically a less armored LR Executioner without the front/side sponsons). Maulerfiends on the other hand have a buttload of attacks, are fast as hell, can interfere with the target unit's ability to fight back, and have a save in close combat on top of all that for a bargain.

 

I think Paladins will actually be fine against forgefiends, as squad dispersion reduces the impact those blasts have (on top of Draigo's shielding shenanigans) and support forces can gun them down first. After those are down, not much else can really give paladins a run for their money, so you can walk in, get local superiority, and wade through the rest with little concern.

 

You ask me, Stormravens are a requirement against Chaos. It gives us something nice to fling at Ahriman/sorcerers/obliterators/backfield vehicles and an answer to the Heldrake.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I wouldn't put too much inside it. Can be very costly if it doesn't arrive until turn 4 and/or gets shot down on the turn it enters play.

[WAR]

I face both fiends Friday in a 4500 pt game (3 chaos armies 1500 each vs 2250 of tau and 2250 of my Crimson Fists) the maulerfiend is scary but it died to 2 sternguard sgts wielding power fists in 1 round of melee. The forge fiend ate a tau rail gun shot and was able to repair itself.... But when the tactical marine with a missile launcher fired on it in the last turn it rolled a 6 for armour pen, and a 6 on the chart! Best part was it was big guns never tire mission and was sitting on their objective swinging it from 10-7 (chaos winning) to 8-7 (us winning). Hammers maybe the answer as it is a daemon iirc

[spartan249]

Beautiful thing about Henchmen: They can go toe-to-toe with just about any assault unit in the game and be anywhere from 6:4 to 8:2 in their favor for a fraction of the cost of any other comparable unit.

 

You throw in 180~240 points of henchmen in the raven, you can expect most of them to survive a crash and burn and still maintain combat effectiveness. God help whatever gets charged if they actually do make it in...

 

edit: Maulerfiends are rather frightening because of a few reasons.

1: They're fast. They can move 12" and run (rerolls from fleet = more reliable distance), meaning they can cover-hop very well, and their assault range is pretty damn big.

2: They're cheap. You seriously pay almost nothing for their capabilities.

3: They're a hell of a lot more durable then a dreadnought and most other assault units at similar costs.

4: They can reduce your attacks in assault if they decide to take lash whips (why wouldn't you, I say). This gives the maulerfiend even more survivability.

[Gentlemanloser]

ForgeFiends Ectoplasma are S7 aren't they? So they don't ID Pallies. Sure, they're AP2, but only 24".

 

It might also be a nice unit to use the Plasma Syphon against! :D

[number6]

4: They can reduce your attacks in assault if they decide to take lash whips (why wouldn't you, I say). This gives the maulerfiend even more survivability.

There's a good argument to be made for keeping the magma cutters: a free S8 AP1 (+2d6 armour pen) hit if the fiend hits you at least once in close combat.

 

I'm not sure which would be more useful in the long run: cutters or lashes. Be interested in hearing how people fare against either version, as I haven't actually faced one on the tabletop yet.

[WAR]

The one I fought had dual lashes....so my sternguard sgts that charged it lost 2 attacks apiece of the four I was supposed to have....Kantor +1, charging +1, 2 base minus the 2 for the lashes but I hit 2 pen twice and killed ot

[Aethernitas]

ForgeFiends Ectoplasma are S7 aren't they? So they don't ID Pallies. Sure, they're AP2, but only 24".

 

It might also be a nice unit to use the Plasma Syphon against! ;)

 

They are S8 and beeing a template weapon syphon is only of limited use.

[minigun762]

There's a good argument to be made for keeping the magma cutters: a free S8 AP1 (+2d6 armour pen) hit if the fiend hits you at least once in close combat.

 

The general Chaos consensus is that they're not worth the heavy slot except in armies built around high speed pressure and in those cases, people are keeping them cheap and focused on killing armor with the cutters.

There is also some confusion about whether or not the cutters add additional normal attacks and how many extra cutter attacks you get (1 & 2, or 2 & 4). Depending on those answers, they may be more common.

 

As it is, it will be used in a similar tactical fashion as the old termicide, throwing it towards the biggest piece of armor on the board and smooshing it good.

[Gentlemanloser]

They are S8 and beeing a template weapon syphon is only of limited use.

 

Balefire? But that's S6 isn't it?

 

I could have sworn Ectoplasma was a 24" Blast. And S7. lol

 

If the Forgefiend Ectoplasma is a 24" Template Weapon, well, that's just nasty!

[Aethernitas]

Baleflamer is indeed S6.

 

Ectoplasma is unfortunately S8. 24" and explosive.

 

Ectofiends+BlackmaceDPs+Heldrakes will be our demise.

 

The end is nigh :\

[Gentlemanloser]

It's really a 24" Template weapon, and not a Blast weapon?

 

O_O

 

How did I not spot that when I read the 'dex.

 

/sigh

 

Vehicle with 3 of these, an you get no Armour (only Chaos have access to 1+ armour) or Cover Saves. And we get no Storm Shields.

 

/cry

[Aethernitas]

nah sorry - its a 2.5" blast of course... english is not my native tongue and I got it mixed up <_<

[Gentlemanloser]

Well that's a little better! ;)

 

And at least the Plasma Syphon still works! :P

[chaplainmeliadus]

only Chaos have access to 1+ armour

 

THe rulebook says a model cannot have an armour save better than 2+. Is this a case od codex trumps rulebook or would this upgrade have no effect if rolled?

[AnImA8]

Gotta say, the changes to the Stormraven for 6th ed have made me really fall in love with this build:

 

Stormraven: TL-Assault Cannon, TL-Heavy Bolter, Sponson Hurricane Pattern Bolters, and Psybolt Ammunition: 255 pts

 

It comes with a hefty price tag, but being able to Zoom and shoot up to 4 weapons makes it put out SO much fire in one turn. The strength and weight of fire allows it to strip away hull point after hull point on most vehicles (definitely other Flyers), and it has made infantry melt under the weight of it's fire. I'd recommend anyone give it a try and see how it plays.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Thanks for the replies guys.

 

To be honest, I'm a bit more perturbed by Maulerfiends. Forgefiends are pretty much the same old same old, I can handle a 200+ point unit like that (It's basically a less armored LR Executioner without the front/side sponsons). Maulerfiends on the other hand have a buttload of attacks, are fast as hell, can interfere with the target unit's ability to fight back, and have a save in close combat on top of all that for a bargain.

 

Except it takes three weapon destroyed results to get rid of all its plasma output. It also has 'It Will Not Die', a 5++, and immunity to stun/shaken. Not saying you can't take it out (AV12 is AV12), but its pretty damn tough. It also murders our infantry at precisely the range we like to engage (24"). PsyDreads might be busy already shooting down Heldrakes or ripping open Rhino rush (MoK Marines do horrible things to Henchmen and Strikes).

 

I think Paladins will actually be fine against forgefiends, as squad dispersion reduces the impact those blasts have (on top of Draigo's shielding shenanigans) and support forces can gun them down first. After those are down, not much else can really give paladins a run for their money, so you can walk in, get local superiority, and wade through the rest with little concern.

 

You can spread out all you like, but if that blast even touches you, you are toast. 'Shrouding' can get you up to a 4+ cover, thats about as good as it gets unless you hide out behind an Aegis line (which isn't likely, as Paladins are an offensive unit, not defensive). All our other infantry except Terminator blob are in the same boat, hug cover and pray.

 

You ask me, Stormravens are a requirement against Chaos. It gives us something nice to fling at Ahriman/sorcerers/obliterators/backfield vehicles and an answer to the Heldrake.

 

Speaking of which, I think Tech-Marine escort is pretty much mandatory for whatever you fling into the backfield. Nades help against non-vehicles (rad grenades are clutch against Nurgle Obliterators), and his servo-arms can take apart a Maulerfiend.

 

ForgeFiends Ectoplasma are S7 aren't they? So they don't ID Pallies. Sure, they're AP2, but only 24".

 

It might also be a nice unit to use the Plasma Syphon against!

 

Nope, S8 AP2 blast, 24" range. And the thing vomits out three of them. THREE. Hence why Paladins cry.

[spartan249]

Over-reaction, man. This is not a fight of Paladins vs Forgefiend, it's a fight of a Grey Knight army vs a Chaos army featuring Forgefiends. An army with Paladins has support units for a reason, so use them and don't forget to include them in the equation. Paladins have a pretty good grasp on the situation against most of the other Chaos stuff (best the rest of them can do is use meltas/plasma to try to maneuver to the flanks, same as everyone else), so hit the forgefiends with the henchmen firing squad (you have one, right?) and deep striking units of whatever.

 

In any case, Stormies are going to be pretty much ok, as Flakk missiles cost 25 points for them and don't do all that much. Only time I'd be concerned for the Stormie's safety is when IG allies are involved.

[Gentlemanloser]

THe rulebook says a model cannot have an armour save better than 2+. Is this a case od codex trumps rulebook or would this upgrade have no effect if rolled?

 

Codex > BRB

 

We should remember that a roll of a 1 is always a failure. But units with a 1+ Armoru save would get a saving throw versus AP2 weapons.

[the jeske]

chaos sm dex covers that too. cant get a boon upgrade that would drop your sv under +2. if it is rolled up its ignored.

[Gentlemanloser]

Would you mind pointing out where that's covered. I didn't see that when I was looking through the dex.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Over-reaction, man. This is not a fight of Paladins vs Forgefiend, it's a fight of a Grey Knight army vs a Chaos army featuring Forgefiends. An army with Paladins has support units for a reason, so use them and don't forget to include them in the equation. Paladins have a pretty good grasp on the situation against most of the other Chaos stuff (best the rest of them can do is use meltas/plasma to try to maneuver to the flanks, same as everyone else), so hit the forgefiends with the henchmen firing squad (you have one, right?) and deep striking units of whatever.

 

True, my point is though you can probably guess what they'll shoot first with the S8 AP2. Your expensive multi-wound T4 unit of 2+ armour dudes. A Forgefiend is basically going to deny your ability to move up and engage whilst its alive (lower cover saves and True LOS make it hard to hide from, its a big model). Even if it only deters your movement, thats enough (Paladins sitting around not in psycannon range are a big waste of points).

 

Henchmen...I'd rather bring in Long Fang Allies with lascannons. But yeah, I guess if you take multiple monkeys and throw on 'Prescience', you will get the kill.

 

In any case, Stormies are going to be pretty much ok, as Flakk missiles cost 25 points for them and don't do all that much. Only time I'd be concerned for the Stormie's safety is when IG allies are involved.

 

Yeah, no smart Chaos player is taking flakk, not for that price. They'll spam autocannon into you or use the Heldrake. Allied IG Vendettas are a real issue though, even one of them is cheaper and likely to burn through your hull points (assuming they don't just immobilise you). That's probably why we'd want a Vindicare on an Icarus.

[the jeske]

how are helldrakes better autocannons ? if it comes in first before the other playrs flyers it is dead. if it comes after it has to get in to melee range to vector strike and it hits with str 7 . the same str 7 auto cannons have and the same str 7 RL armed havocks have . the only difference is that unlike those havocks , a drake will eat a quad gun/icarus on arrival and unlike havocks it cant be made big enough[unit size 1] to survive a turn of focus firing from flyers . 8 havocks can survive 3 vendettas a drake goes a very good chance to go puff.

[Vash]

how are helldrakes better autocannons ? if it comes in first before the other playrs flyers it is dead. if it comes after it has to get in to melee range to vector strike and it hits with str 7 . the same str 7 auto cannons have and the same str 7 RL armed havocks have . the only difference is that unlike those havocks , a drake will eat a quad gun/icarus on arrival and unlike havocks it cant be made big enough[unit size 1] to survive a turn of focus firing from flyers . 8 havocks can survive 3 vendettas a drake goes a very good chance to go puff.

 

If the heldrake arrives first it can zoom of the tables short edge if it wants to. It will then arrive as continuous reserv next turn. Just enter the table from the corner and angle it to zoom out.

So going first is no issue for the heldrake if the target is a storm raven with cargo inside.

 

The heldrake has S7 yes but also has re-roll to armor pen. This has actually taken down my storm raven. Sure it was bit of luck but the chance to do some damage (hull points) is pretty big.