Jolemai Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 One of the many interesting topics of conversation from the following thread: How do you find Blood Angels in 6th is about how the use of Librarians have changed this edition. I am, of course, referring to what spells it takes. Take the following squad load out that was used by many in the fifth: Librarian (Sword/Rage and Shield) Priest/Corbulo 8 Assault Marines (Melta Gun, Power Weapon) Rhino Here we see our Librarian taking what many believed to be the staple choices in the fifth. Now, in the sixth, we see Librarians forgoing the Blood Angel table for the Divination table in order to pick Prescience and one other. Do we actually feel that the Divination table (Prescience in particular) is worth dropping Shield (and Rage/Sword) in this configuration? Does the maths add up? Is it the same for a ten-man squad of Jump Pack marines with a Priest? Can you honestly afford to lose Shield when you no longer have a (now flimsy) tank? I'm quite interested to know what you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Shield is still a very, very good power. The important thing to remember is that it provides the WHOLE SQUAD with a 5+ cover, vice terrain give cover on a per-model basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IK Viper Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I totally agree, Shield coupled with FnP effectively gives all your guys inside both bubbles a 5+ followed by a 5+ against plasma fire which is nice, and is in no way tied to terrain. In a night fight game you can use this power to jump forward into the open and claim a 4+ or maybe even 3+ cover save followed by FnP, to me Divination is mostly for offense and does a great job at boosting the output of a RAS squad for example, but only one squad. With good positioning you can spread that cover save bubble to 3 sqauds easily, if you do the same with the FnP you are really stretching your points investment out and probably coming out better based on the fact that more guys live to see combat then before. I run the Div. Librarian on foot in the back to twin-link fire support elements or to precience an assault squad at the start of turn 2 so they can leap forward and assault, while keeping your librarian safely in the back denying the WL point. Conversly a Jumper Librarian in my opinion should have Shield and some other power to help your jumpers live against the torrent of plasma that usually comes their way... besides, it's like taking an Epistilary upgrade since Shield is cast in the opponent's turn and you generate a warp charge every player turn, I personnaly like to take Sword in alot of cases but Blood Lance and Fear seem like solid choices too, Fear may be one of the best shooting powers around against certain units and its 24 inch range so you can actually use it turn 1 alot of times (when it has the best chance of running stuff off the board) Lastly, Precience targets a single squad, and it your like me and like to combat sqaud alot, then Precience is not really giving you that bang for your buck that you want, but Shield is unaffected by combat squading so long as your positioning is good, to me, multiple small targets all with a pretty nice set of defensive buffs is better then one uber killy jump sqaud (Sang. Guard do the real smashing better for the same price without a libby against almost everything a RAS can take on any way) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hmmm has anyone considered a Furioso liby? Would be a very nice force multiplier with very good combat capabilies ;) Give him precience or whatever, hes got without the power but with! Oh boy :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 The trouble with the Furioso Librarian will often be it's movement (and/or delivery). What on the Divination table is good for him to go with Prescience? How will he keep up with our forces to buff other units? Or are you thinking of casting it on the Dreadnought to make a more effective tarpit unit (assuming the target unit lacks Melta Bombs, etc)? Perhaps the Furioso Librarian will be the model to give Shield (and Wings) to, allowing our other Librarians to take options from the Divination table... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 A furioso librarian is best used with wings and shield - without the added mobility of wings, he's worse and a lot more expensive than a normal furioso, no point in taking prescience on him really. It depends a lot on your list, if you play with lots of MSU, then shield benefits a lot of units - if you play larger units, especially sternguard or DC, prescience is ridiculously strong on those and does a lot more than the 5+ cover you will get anyway if you position yourself correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mapple Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Furioso Librarian using BRB powers casts them, most often, at the beginning of the turn, so he can still run in the shooting phase if needed. Not as good as a guaranteed 12" jump, but it makes an average of 9". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 The Furioso libby doesn't have access to BRB powers. See the FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJude Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 The Furioso libby doesn't have access to BRB powers. See the FAQ. Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see such a restriction. Whereabouts are you getting that, if you don't mind me asking? I see "A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels. If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed." Are you saying a Furioso Librarian is not a "Blood Angels Librarian"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djulius Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Issue I have with most of these replies is the suggestion that you get to choose your powers. I guess that in friendly games/groups this may be permissible but in correct form you have to roll for them. The main question should therefore be "given the possibilities of what you can roll on the BRB tables, is it worth the risk against the BA set?" I agree that Divination is the one to go for... if you haven't done so I found the Beasts of War review of the BRB sets a good overview, and as they pointed out some of the 'shooting' powers require several rolls to go for you (getting off the power/witch/roll to hit/roll to wound/several possible saves...) that their usefulness are diminished. Divination powers are all useful to most Libbies, even if you roll a less than useful power the falolback is always useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see such a restriction. Whereabouts are you getting that, if you don't mind me asking? I see "A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels. If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed." Are you saying a Furioso Librarian is not a "Blood Angels Librarian"? Precisely. If Furioso Librarians were to be included, the line would have read "A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston and Furioso Dreadnoughts with the Librarian upgrade)..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Maikel Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Issue I have with most of these replies is the suggestion that you get to choose your powers. I guess that in friendly games/groups this may be permissible but in correct form you have to roll for them. The main question should therefore be "given the possibilities of what you can roll on the BRB tables, is it worth the risk against the BA set?" I agree that Divination is the one to go for... if you haven't done so I found the Beasts of War review of the BRB sets a good overview, and as they pointed out some of the 'shooting' powers require several rolls to go for you (getting off the power/witch/roll to hit/roll to wound/several possible saves...) that their usefulness are diminished. Divination powers are all useful to most Libbies, even if you roll a less than useful power the falolback is always useful. Prescience is the primaris power for Divination, so you always have the option of swapping your roll on the table for it. It's also probably the best general-purpose power on that table (though others can be situationally better), and at least 4/6 powers on that table will be useful in any given game. I generally roll Div first, and if I end up taking the Prescience with that roll my second one is usually on Telepathy. I'd rather take Psychic Shriek over the reroll reserves/terrain power any day, and some of the other Telepathy powers are also really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Furioso Libbys can use BRB powers. The argument that they can't is beyond nitpicking and into psychotic. Are they Blood Angels? Yes. Are they Librarians? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Are they Blood Angels? Yes. Are they Librarians? Yes. If they are Librarians then they can take Librarian options in the army list. Librarian Dreadnought Terminator armour and Storm Shield? No they are not Librarians in the same way Sergeants aren't Space Marines in a Tactical squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Furioso Libbys can use BRB powers. The argument that they can't is beyond nitpicking and into psychotic. Are they Blood Angels? Yes. Are they Librarians? Yes. Sorry, but no. Is Mephiston a Blood Angel? Yes. Is he a Librarian? Yes. Then why would they bother mentionning him and not Furioso Libbies? A lot of the powers available to BA libbies just don't work for a dread. Iron Arm? Does not compute. Life Leech? Does not compute. That's why they don't have access to BRB powers - GW would have to go and explain how you resolve each power that does not function with a vehicle. They didn't want to bother doing so, hence they left Furioso Libbies without access to BRB powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 LMAO. Ok, you guys win. The Furioso Librarian in Codex : Blood Angels isn't a Blood Angels Librarian. Genius. That's the kind of illogical pedantry that BnC is so famous for. Presumably the Epistolary can't use BRB powers either, since he's not mentioned in the FAQ paragraph. Only Librarians and Mephiston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Sorry, but no. Is Mephiston a Blood Angel? Yes. Is he a Librarian? Yes. Then why would they bother mentionning him and not Furioso Libbies? A lot of the powers available to BA libbies just don't work for a dread. Iron Arm? Does not compute. Life Leech? Does not compute. That's why they don't have access to BRB powers - GW would have to go and explain how you resolve each power that does not function with a vehicle. They didn't want to bother doing so, hence they left Furioso Libbies without access to BRB powers. Because there isn't single part of Mephiston's rules that mention him being a Librarian and they wanted to head off Doom of Malantai/Zoanthrope type objections from psychotic rules-lawyers. The Furioso has rules that call him a Librarian, Mephiston doesn't. Nor does the Epistolary. So no BRB powers for him, right? Still, I don't care. Gimp yourself unnecessarily and on flimsy grounds if you want. No skin off my nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Maikel Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 If they are Librarians then they can take Librarian options in the army list. Librarian Dreadnought Terminator armour and Storm Shield? No they are not Librarians in the same way Sergeants aren't Space Marines in a Tactical squad. Sorry, but no. Is Mephiston a Blood Angel? Yes. Is he a Librarian? Yes. Then why would they bother mentionning him and not Furioso Libbies? A lot of the powers available to BA libbies just don't work for a dread. Iron Arm? Does not compute. Life Leech? Does not compute. That's why they don't have access to BRB powers - GW would have to go and explain how you resolve each power that does not function with a vehicle. They didn't want to bother doing so, hence they left Furioso Libbies without access to BRB powers. Arguably, if they meant the Blood Angels Librarian codex entry they would have said "A Blood Angels Librarian or Mephiston" or "Any Blood Angels Librarian and Mephiston" instead of "A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)". Since Mephiston obviously doesn't fall under the codex entry for a plain BA Libby, it seems to me like they meant any member of the Librarius, including those battle brothers who have fallen in battle and been entombed. As for powers that don't work, my understanding is that you'd follow them as closely as possible and ignore the nonsensical parts. Iron Arm would still grant the bonus Strength, but the bonus Toughness and EW it grants wouldn't mean anything and would be ignored. Life Leech is even easier: Libby Dreads have starting wounds of 0, and can never lose a wound earlier in the battle, so you ignore that paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Issue I have with most of these replies is the suggestion that you get to choose your powers. I guess that in friendly games/groups this may be permissible but in correct form you have to roll for them. The only one people are assuming they'll get is Prescience, which given that it's a primaris power, you can always take it. Not really sure what else this comment could have been referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Sorry, but no. Is Mephiston a Blood Angel? Yes. Is he a Librarian? Yes. Then why would they bother mentionning him and not Furioso Libbies? A lot of the powers available to BA libbies just don't work for a dread. Iron Arm? Does not compute. Life Leech? Does not compute. That's why they don't have access to BRB powers - GW would have to go and explain how you resolve each power that does not function with a vehicle. They didn't want to bother doing so, hence they left Furioso Libbies without access to BRB powers. Because there isn't single part of Mephiston's rules that mention him being a Librarian and they wanted to head off Doom of Malantai/Zoanthrope type objections from psychotic rules-lawyers. The Furioso has rules that call him a Librarian, Mephiston doesn't. Nor does the Epistolary. So no BRB powers for him, right? Still, I don't care. Gimp yourself unnecessarily and on flimsy grounds if you want. No skin off my nose. The Episoltary is still of unit type Librarian. The Furioso librarian is of unit type Furioso Dreadnought. I have no idea if the Furioso Dread is supposed to have access to the BRB powers or not (and I really don't care since I basically always want Wings/Shield when I use mine anyway). Honestly, I see no logical reason it shouldn't. But the RAW argument against it makes sense to me. Issue I have with most of these replies is the suggestion that you get to choose your powers. I guess that in friendly games/groups this may be permissible but in correct form you have to roll for them. The only one people are assuming they'll get is Prescience, which given that it's a primaris power, you can always take it. Not really sure what else this comment could have been referring to. I think that is the case. I roll for my librarians knowing something will get swapped to Prescience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 If you use the logic that says a Furioso is not a Librarian, then the Epistolary is upgraded from a Librarian to an Epistolary, making him a Blood Angels Epistolary, not a Blood Angels Librarian. Of course, an Epistolary is a type of Librarian. But then, so is a Furioso Librarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 If you use the logic that says a Furioso is not a Librarian, then the Epistolary is upgraded from a Librarian to an Epistolary, making him a Blood Angels Epistolary, not a Blood Angels Librarian. Of course, an Epistolary is a type of Librarian. But then, so is a Furioso Librarian. Episoltary does not have its own stat line. By statline its still a librarian, Epistoltary is just an option for it. An Episoltray is still a Blood Angels librarian by RAW, a Furioso librarian is debatable (and this is likely only due to sloppy GW rules) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJude Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I am afraid I am on Res Ipsa Loquitors side. Here is why, in the BA codex on page 63, at the top left of the page, you have the following text. "Other than Mephiston, every Blood Angels Librarian has two psychic powers. (chosen when the army is picked)." The inclusion for Mephiston in the FAQ is to help over-ride the line above and show that Mephiston is no longer locked into the powers he initially comes with. I do not believe that that line is there as a means to exclude this now newly defined class of librarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Episoltary does not have its own stat line. By statline its still a librarian, Epistoltary is just an option for it. An Episoltray is still a Blood Angels librarian by RAW, a Furioso librarian is debatable (and this is likely only due to sloppy GW rules) Nope, by RAW only a Blood Angels Librarian can access BRB powers. If, by RAW, a Furioso doesn't count as a Librarian then neither does an Epistolary because he used to be a Librarian, but no longer is. By RAW, there is no provision that something that shares a statline must be that thing (is a Chaplain a Librarian or vice-versa?) and by RAW he explicitly stops being a Librarian and becomes an Epistolary. There is no logic in saying that an Epistolary can use BRB powers and a Furioso can't. Both can, but slavish and myopic obedience to strict wording against all logic says neither can and since logic plays no part in rules debates here, I guess neither can. I will of course continue to play correctly that both can, all others are free to hamper themselves unnecessarily as they please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Sorry Res, your argument makes no sense. What model type is an episoltary if not librarian. What model type is Furioso librarian if not furioso? Show me in the codex another answer? There is no model type Episoltary. There is no model type Furioso librarian. All models of type Librarian are librarians even if they have the Episoltary upgrade. All models of type Furioso are Furiosos even if they have blood fists, blood talons, Frag cannons or the librarian upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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