Deschenus Maximus Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 God... are you serious? A libby with the epistolary upgrade is still a libby. He is an Epistolary-level Librarian. His army list entry doesn't change to "Epistolary". Look, I'm not saying it makes any kind of sense for the furioso not to be able to get BRB powers. But GW are too damn lazy to answer a bunch of FAQ questions, so they don't get them. Playing it any other way is plain ol' cheating. Its the same argument I get from :cuss who insist that Grey Knight squads can exchange Warp Quake or the like for Prescience... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Except the rules for Epistolary explicitly say that the Librarian is upgraded to an Epistolary. Not a Librarian Epistolary, but an Epistolary. If you upgrade one thing to another, it ceases to be that first thing. There is no RAW that says an Epistolary is a Librarian. None at all. A butterfly ceases to be a caterpillar once it grows wings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 His army list entry is still "Librarian" regardless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 His army list entry is still "Librarian" regardless. Says who? Not the rules. The rules say he used to be a Librarian, then became an Epistolary. Listen, you can't be insanely anal about the Furioso and then all 'eh, whatever' about the Epistolary. They're both Blood Angels Librarians or neither are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Issue I have with most of these replies is the suggestion that you get to choose your powers. I guess that in friendly games/groups this may be permissible but in correct form you have to roll for them. The only one people are assuming they'll get is Prescience, which given that it's a primaris power, you can always take it. Not really sure what else this comment could have been referring to. Welcome back, dude. Havent seen you post in ages. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 The Furioso Librarian is still a Furioso, just like and Epistolary is still a Librarian. I never said anything to the contrary, mate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 You're claiming that the Furioso isn't a Blood Angels Librarian because it's never explicitly referred to as such despite being a Librarian from Codex:Blood Angels but you're willing to be loosey-goosey with the Epistolary because it fits with your preconceived notion of how things should be. You insist on RAW on one hand (though it is your misinterpretation of the RAW and not true RAW) and not on the other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 An Epistolary is still unit type "Librarian", hence the FAQ works just fine. A Furioso Librarian is unit type "Furioso Dreadnought". What is so difficult to grasp about this concept? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykra Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 The Furioso libby doesn't have access to BRB powers. See the FAQ. I see "A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels. If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed." Are you saying a Furioso Librarian is not a "Blood Angels Librarian"? I skipped many of the replies before my post as I didn't feel like reading the bickering back and forth. To me, the Furioso Librarian is obviously a Librarian, has two powers, and could swap to the BRB powers listed if he wished. Reading the excerpt I don't see anything that would lead me to think that is false. The inclusion of Mephiston - in how I read it - is not a clarification of 'Librarian/Not-Librarian' but more a powers thing. You would think Mephiston gets three powers from the BRB, but this makes it clear that he - like all other Blood Angels Librarians - get two if he swaps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arryn Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I think until it is FAQ'd Res Ipsa is correct in principle, but Deschenus is correct in application. To knock this on the head i would suggest each plays it however they and their opponent want, agreed to before the game kicks off. Personally i'll stick with wings and lance/shield anyway... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Do we actually feel that the Divination table (Prescience in particular) is worth dropping Shield (and Rage/Sword) in this configuration? Does the maths add up?Is it the same for a ten-man squad of Jump Pack marines with a Priest? Can you honestly afford to lose Shield when you no longer have a (now flimsy) tank? I'm quite interested to know what you think about it. Well its not a simple straight-up Comparison of Unleash-Rage versus Prescience. There are some external factors which promote the dominance of Prescience. That fact that Prescience can cast onto shooting units helps promote utility until the power is required in melee (Something U-Rage can't do). Not only that, but the power can be cast onto units which the Librarian in not joined to. Tactic Example: 20 Jumpers, one forward one behind. Lib attached to back-unit casts onto forward unit. That unit charges, but will receive damage. Next turn, Librarian casts onto the back unit and 'rescues' the engaged squad. This ensures that the Force Multiplication is always active on the most amount of attacks (the more dice to multiply, the more observed benefit). Unleash Rage requires the Librarian to be engaged, and will lose effectiveness as the squad he's in loses members. For the Shield of Sanguinius discussion, now that the Aegis Defense Line (deploy midfield) exists, combined with Jinking Attack Bikes and the fact that Terrain placement is part of the game, there's been literally SO few times where I've missed that power to be honest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remmy Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 His point about the epostolary holds a lot of water. And it extends even further when nitpicking with the rules in this manner. Assuming having the entry as "Librarian" for your statline is the qualifier for being a librarian: When upgrading a command squad veteran which has it's own stat line to a company champion the syntax is "One veteran may be upgraded to a company champion" The company champion's stat line is listed as well. When upgrading a librarian to an epistolary the syntax is as follows "Upgrade to an Epistolary" and then lists the point cost. No stat line for an epistolary is given. So essentially we can in no way play with an epistolary character since no statline has been given. It also stands that even if a stat line existed it wouldn't have librarian as it's title. The furioso Librarian is in the same boat. We have no statline for them. The point that GW included this as an intentional restriction for Furioso dreadnoughts is pretty silly as well. I rarely see them used to good effect in highly competitive environments. They are just a fluffy fun unit, and scrutinizing their rules in such a manner is needless except to protect yourself from extreme rule lawyers. Even all the biomancy powers would work fine for them. Give them +3 toughness. Even though they have it the rules for fighting walkers/vehicles negate any need to worry about the fact that he has 3 toughness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Welcome back, dude. Havent seen you post in ages. Thanks Mort! I've been around (posted in the BA 6th discussion), but not posting as much lately. Flog me for heresy, but I've been playing Crons for much of 6th. I started the army with tournament winnings a couple months before 6th dropped, and ended up lucking into an amazing codex. It's been an interesting experience, but BA are still my first love and I intend to get back to gaming with them in a couple weeks. 6th finally gave me motivation to build up that pair of Ravens I've had sitting in a box for so long. :P And not sure if I posted in your national thread or not, so if I forgot to, congratulations on your awesome win! Really enjoyed reading your batreps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 His point about the epostolary holds a lot of water. And it extends even further when nitpicking with the rules in this manner. Assuming having the entry as "Librarian" for your statline is the qualifier for being a librarian: When upgrading a command squad veteran which has it's own stat line to a company champion the syntax is "One veteran may be upgraded to a company champion" The company champion's stat line is listed as well. When upgrading a librarian to an epistolary the syntax is as follows "Upgrade to an Epistolary" and then lists the point cost. No stat line for an epistolary is given. So essentially we can in no way play with an epistolary character since no statline has been given. It also stands that even if a stat line existed it wouldn't have librarian as it's title. The furioso Librarian is in the same boat. We have no statline for them. The point that GW included this as an intentional restriction for Furioso dreadnoughts is pretty silly as well. I rarely see them used to good effect in highly competitive environments. They are just a fluffy fun unit, and scrutinizing their rules in such a manner is needless except to protect yourself from extreme rule lawyers. Even all the biomancy powers would work fine for them. Give them +3 toughness. Even though they have it the rules for fighting walkers/vehicles negate any need to worry about the fact that he has 3 toughness. An episoltary is still a librarian, just with an upgrade. A furioso librarian is still a furioso, just with an upgrade. A furioso librarian is not a librarian, can not take librarian upgrades is not an HQ unit. So, Res's argument is wrong. Now, I personally think this is just a case of poor wording anyway and GW did not intend to restrict the Furioso librarian from access to BRB powers. I think until it is FAQ'd Res Ipsa is correct in principle, but Deschenus is correct in application. To knock this on the head i would suggest each plays it however they and their opponent want, agreed to before the game kicks off. Personally i'll stick with wings and lance/shield anyway... Basically this is my opinion as well. GW forgot the Furioso libby when writing the 6th update and didn't include it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3217752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Don't know why everyone is going on about profiles and entries. The FAQ update in question isn't errata for anyone's entry like some other changes after 6th. Saying that the furioso lib isn't a lib is just silly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilturkeyofdoom Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I have stopped using shield on my Librarian Furisio. I got the impression from reading the rule book that I generate a warp charge per game turn, not per player turn and therefore, unless I have saved some warp charge up, only use wings (my other power), or shield in a game turn. Am I wrong? Also for the record - It seems obvious to me the dreadnaught is a librarian for the reasons given by other posters - though I use codex powers as I want wings. Not that you would take my opinion seriously if I can't get the former rule correct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixzion Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I have stopped using shield on my Librarian Furisio. I got the impression from reading the rule book that I generate a warp charge per game turn, not per player turn and therefore, unless I have saved some warp charge up, only use wings (my other power), or shield in a game turn. Am I wrong? Also for the record - It seems obvious to me the dreadnaught is a librarian for the reasons given by other posters - though I use codex powers as I want wings. Not that you would take my opinion seriously if I can't get the former rule correct. You are indeed correct in that you only regenerate your warp charges at the beginning of your turn. It turns out I played this way in 5th also (oops) so for me it's not such a big difference :P And if we disregard the people who are arguing about the librarian dreadnought (I'm on the side that it's a librarian), assuming it can take powers from the rule book, which one would you take and why? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilturkeyofdoom Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 If I could take wings and a rule book power then I would, but as I can't I tend to stick with the codex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 You generate Warp Charge each turn. Since a "turn" is always a player turn unless otherwise specified, you get to use Wings and Shield without issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Looks like I unchanged something by mentioning the Furioso Librarian :) Tbh its silly debates like this that always follow rule changes... I dont see this beeing an issue in a friendly gaming atmosphere. If someone pulls this during a tourney call the judge and unless hes a very biased RAW person I dont see him giving the "you cant use powers part" any ground... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Rainbow Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 My $0.02 is why do people care about this? The codex powers are so much better suited to a Furioso Libby anyway. I mean what happens when you roll Iron Arm or something like that - you can only exchange one power for the primaris so you are potentially left with something useless. Wings/Shield or Shield/Rage are much better combos for a dread depending on whether you pod or jump across the board. For the record, I think he probably counts as a librarian and could use book powers. But why you'd want to is another question... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixzion Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 You generate Warp Charge each turn. Since a "turn" is always a player turn unless otherwise specified, you get to use Wings and Shield without issue. Oh! Actually I have to agree with you! First I tried to prove you wrong by getting the rule book, but when I read the rules again it seems like I'm the one who is wrong! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Maikel Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 My $0.02 is why do people care about this? The codex powers are so much better suited to a Furioso Libby anyway. I mean what happens when you roll Iron Arm or something like that - you can only exchange one power for the primaris so you are potentially left with something useless. Wings/Shield or Shield/Rage are much better combos for a dread depending on whether you pod or jump across the board. For the record, I think he probably counts as a librarian and could use book powers. But why you'd want to is another question... Again, since the FAQ includes Mephiston in the list of Blood Angels Librarians, even though he obviously doesn't have the "Librarian" profile or have the word Librarian anywhere in his army list entry, I have to think that the FAQ is referring to any member of the Librarius (including Furiosos). As for why, half of the Div powers are fantastic on a Dread (4++? Reroll all to-hit and to-wound? force enemy rerolls?) and Prescience can help both the dread himself or whatever units he's near (which are probably on the front line). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 You generate Warp Charge each turn. Since a "turn" is always a player turn unless otherwise specified, you get to use Wings and Shield without issue. Oh! Actually I have to agree with you! First I tried to prove you wrong by getting the rule book, but when I read the rules again it seems like I'm the one who is wrong! It's almost as if I know what I'm talking about :P ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilturkeyofdoom Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Ok - If I understand this correctly I have indeed been playing this wrong. To check I have understood do you agree that a Librarian in a 6 turn game will get 12 warpcharge points? An Epistolary gets 24? (I have been playing it as 6 and 12) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263985-librarian-powers/page/2/#findComment-3219668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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