Chosen Berzerkers

[FerociousBeast]

You can create a unit very similar to Khorne Berzerkers with the Chosen. Compare:

 

10 Khorne Berzerkers w/ Icon of Wrath: 215 points

- Rage, Counter-attack, Furious Charge, Fearless

- +1 WS, LD 8/9

- BP/CCW

- Elite slot

 

10 Chosen w/ Mark of Khorne, Icon of Wrath: 220 points

- Rage, Counter-attack, Furious Charge

- +1 A, LD 9/9

- BP/CCW/Bolter

- Elite slot

 

So there's only 5 points difference. The Khorne Zerks get +1 WS and Fearless, while the Chosen Zerks get +1 A and Bolters. They also don't depend on their champion for the LD 9.

 

Which is better? I think it's a toss up point for point as built above. The +1 WS and +1 A are pretty close to each other when you work out the probabilities, and it's hard to say whether it's better to be Fearless or to have a harder punch at range (plus the marginal benefit of a base LD 9).

 

However, when you start thinking about options and synergies, the Chosen start to come out way ahead. They can purchase 5 special CCWs while the Khorne Zerks can purchase only 1. Of course, the Zerks can buy chainaxes as well, but the jury is still out whether or not they're worth it. And when you add HQ characters to the squads, the addition of Fearless erases one of the advantages the Khorne Zerks have over the Chosen Zerks. And if that HQ is a Dark Apostle, the re-rolls from Zealot benefit the Chosen far more than the Zerkers.

 

The only real benefit, in my opinion, that remains for the Khorne Zerks is that it is much easier to get them in the Troops slot.

 

What do you think? Why pick Khorne Berzerkers when you can pick Chosen Berzerkers instead?

[Vilicate]

Fearless is a pretty nice trait to have at the tips of your fingers, without having to have a character babysit them.

 

I like Zerks quite a bit; WS5 is pretty rad. Statistically, the Berserkers should inflict more hits than the Chosen on the charge. And if given re-rolls (a 1pt upgrade for Zerks, while a 2pt upgrade for chosen), the chosen still only hit like 3% more than Zerks.

 

I like both units, but I'd probably still take the berserkers over the chosen just because it's easier to make them troops.

[Raven Angel]

You add in th cost of Vets of the Long War The zerkers get better as is only 10 more pts to make them Ld10/9 with hatred SM verses the 20pts for the chosen

[Iron Sage]

Not sure really. But I do love your avatar ! ;)

[Minsc]

Chosen win due to their ability to bring meltas and powerweapons that doesn't have to issue/accept challenges all the time.

I would only pick the Berzerkers if I had a Chaos Lord with MoK in the same army, so they become troops.

VotLW is more expensive on the Chosen because they benefit from it more.

 

Khorne Raptors/Bikers also outperform Khorne Berzerkers point for point.

[Killax]

Chosen always win. They are also Elites.

 

Cheers,

[Circus Nurgling]

Man, I'm trying to picture a unit of MoK, IoW chosen with all/mostly power weapons... costly but vicious combo that.

[Killax]

Man, I'm trying to picture a unit of MoK, IoW chosen with all/mostly power weapons... costly but vicious combo that.

 

Now Imagne a Khorne Lord on a Jugger with an Blind and Furious Axe.

 

Double rainbow all the way.

[the jeske]

I dont get it . how is it vicious. you can take termis get the same power weapons adn a +2sv . chosen are in no way able to be either a base of a deathstar or a deathstar counter/killer unit . they are high cost [when geared to do hth] meq , that will struggle against anything but the most basic of squads. and being a high cost unit to deal with basic stuff is never good.

[Prot]

Honestly? I would take neither.

 

If I felt compelled to take MoK, I'd slap it on basic CSM's and just give them the 'free' close combat + bolt pistol option. Yes you'd lose bolters but at least this isn't so cost prohibitive.

[Killax]

I dont get it . how is it vicious. you can take termis get the same power weapons adn a +2sv . chosen are in no way able to be either a base of a deathstar or a deathstar counter/killer unit . they are high cost [when geared to do hth] meq , that will struggle against anything but the most basic of squads. and being a high cost unit to deal with basic stuff is never good.

 

True, but I don;t know if the question/discussion was ment to be competative or not. It can be fun, which is an aspect to some battles to.

 

Personally I run chosen for the quantity of special weapons.

 

Cheers,

[Dallas Drake]

How are either units reliably getting the charge?

 

Dallas

[Killax]

How are either units reliably getting the charge?

 

Dallas

 

Not.

[Circus Nurgling]

@ Jeske, I didn't say points efficient ^_^. And looking at the points value, considering Termies come standard with a PW at 31 points, and Chosen are 33 points with PW, at first glance termies come out on top. But they have a bolt pistol, so Chosen get 3 A base, while Termies get 2. True, they're more survivable, but you can pack 10 Chosen into a Land Raider, while you can only pack 5 Termies in, so Chosen do have a (somewhat) reliable delivery system for a close combat unit. Not to mention 5 of the unit can upgrade to meltas, thinning out what you're about to assault in the first place, and you're not left with a mere boltgun when you consolidate as you would be with a combi-melta option on the termies.

[FerociousBeast]

Well, for the interests of argument and staying on topic, let's assume that you both want Zerkers and have a plan for getting them into combat. Land Raider, meat shields, terrain, etc. Although, any difficulties Chaos footsloggers may have in getting the charge would be another point in the Chosen's favor, due to their bolters. Chosen Berzerkers aren't useless if they can't get a charge off.

[Vilicate]

Well, for the interests of argument and staying on topic, let's assume that you both want Zerkers and have a plan for getting them into combat. Land Raider, meat shields, terrain, etc. Although, any difficulties Chaos footsloggers may have in getting the charge would be another point in the Chosen's favor, due to their bolters. Chosen Berzerkers aren't useless if they can't get a charge off.

 

But then they're not running, they're shooting some random bolter shots. What's the good of that?

 

I'd rather run to get myself closer to the enemy. Granted, the Chosen have the far better overwatch, but then you're getting assaulted, any probably not by something you'd like. At least the icon gives your a relatively reliable 7-8" assault distance.

 

To those comparing the squads to other units, that's nice, but not within the subject of the original argument. I'd rather take raptors or terminators or bikers over either unit, but that's not what the thread is about.

[Dallas Drake]

How are either units reliably getting the charge?

 

Dallas

 

Not.

 

Exactamundo!

 

There in lies the issue with melee tooled up Chosen & to a lesser extent Berzerkers. I think Chosen are alright to stick 5 special weapons on though, if that's your kind of thing!

 

DD

[TheDarkOne]

From my perspective:

 

Chosen = shooty (max unit size 10 negates our meq horde assault army style, and access to shooty special weapons is the real seller with chosen

 

Berzerkers = choppy (max unit size 20 means they can be more substantial on the field, and dont' need to ride in a rhino. they don't have special weapons but are fearless naturally and don't need upgrade outside of the unit champion.

 

I still much prefer basic CSM for both roles, as they're troops, who can be kitted out like berzerkers for a comparable cost. going to test Mark of slaanesh to hit meq first and have FNP on the backsiwing...

[Slayer le Boucher]

Squad of Chosen with Khârn in a LR/SE, followed by Zerkers squads in Dreadclaws and CSM of Khorne in Rhinos, nuff said.

[meeper]

It depends on how you want to use the unit. Like terminators, dont go overboard with the unit options and size, a few power weapons and a fist can do the job just fine.

 

I run a 7 man bodyguard for my lvl 3 sorc and it always hits like a freight train.

 

7 man chosen squad, 1 power fist, 1 power maul, 1 power axe all with MoN for 202 pts. I dont have to give anything to the squad champ so I dont have to worry about wasted wounds on challenges. It has a few extra T5 bodies in there and the sorc rolls on the biomancy table so there is always the potential to give the whole unit feel no pain and relentless as well.

 

Still, nothing beats the 2+ and 5++ of termie armor.

[Sception]

This comparison is not worth making in elites. The chosen will just be better in the same slot, but even they aren't very good as elites. Neither is a real elite choice, rather they're troop units with situational access requirements.

 

Berzerkers aren't worth considering until you've already taken a Khorne lord for the blinding axe and consequently made berzerkers troops by accident. At that point, you're judging them against CSMs, not against chosen. Unless the khorn lord was a secondary HQ supporting Abaddon? Pretty specific set of circumstances. In that case I'd say....

 

Probably cultitsts, to make up for all the points you spent on HQ choices.

[SamaNagol]

Chaos have no Deathstar. They just can't do it.

 

Spawn and Bikes are good however

[techsoldaten]

Chaos have no Deathstar. They just can't do it.

Chaos can come closer to a deathstar unit than was possible in earlier Codexes. You end up with an Imperial Destroyer if not a true Death Star.

 

Dark Apostle's proximity raises a unit's leadership to 10. Icon of Excess gives a unit Feel no Pain. Add in a psychic power like Hysterial Frenzy.

 

Hrm, I might already be running one. A Slaanesh CL with the Black Mace leading a unit of bikers with IoE and Hysterical Frenzy is pretty hard to kill.

[Jonah]

I've really tried to make Berzerkers work. I recently bought a friend's army that has 32 of the buggers, so trust me, I've tried!

 

From experience I've found you can cram them into 3 Rhinos and have relative success. You just have to plan 3 turns ahead:

 

Turn 1: Get them to where you want them (max range 18" from deployment). Hide behind a Landraider or terrain.

Turn 2: Move 6", disembark & pop smoke with Bezerkers behind the Rhino for cover.

Turn 3: Charge!

 

While this has worked for me (they have killed a 10-man Draigo Paladin squad and numerous Blood Angels) I personally don't like them in rhinos. I find it boring and it really slows the pace of my army down. Also against anything with a 3+ save the normal Berzerkers aren't great; they land plenty of wounds but normal armour saves will generally keep the enemy out of trouble. They are only good to act as bodyguards for the Fisty-Champ or vs light infantry if you give them chainaxes.

 

What works much better and is indeed more fun is to load them into Landraiders. Two Landraiders with 9 Berzerkers each, put a Lord with Axe in one and Khârn in the other. Boom!

 

Chosen are interesting because they make the Rhino Experience much more viable. You don't have to plan 3 turns ahead any more because they can just disembark and rapid fire. This is a much more versatile unit and if they're troops they can dominate a board with a little support.

 

Consider:

 

Chosen x10 with MoK, PW & PlasmaGun x2

Rhino with Dirge

 

Chosen x10 with MoK, PW & PlasmaGun x2

Rhino with Dirge

 

Chosen x10 with MoK, PW & PlasmaGun x2

Rhino with Dirge

 

2x Forgefiends

 

This comes to 1205 points, 1470 with Abaddon. I know this defeats the thread's purpose but I don't think they need MoK, they already have 2 attacks basic & a CCW. I'd either drop marks altogether or give them MoS so they're murdering Marines without breaking a sweat and you could give them Feel No Pain for 35 points each. Then you have some really nasty units.

 

I haven't managed to footslog either of these units. Berzerkers are too easy to shoot and avoid when they're in the open, more so when they start on foot. Chosen are too expensive to be out in the open, I'd rather have them in mobile boxes for a turn or two so I have a chance to clear the field of Battletanks and the like. Cultists, however, fill this role perfectly. Cheap and cheerful, they don't give a flip about Battletanks or Artillery. They're great for soaking up fire and they make great shock troops if the enemy ignores them.

 

So, in my experience:

• Berzerkers in Landraiders
  
• Chosen in Rhinos
  
• Cultists on foot
  

[the jeske]

@ Jeske, I didn't say points efficient :P. And looking at the points value, considering Termies come standard with a PW at 31 points, and Chosen are 33 points with PW, at first glance termies come out on top. But they have a bolt pistol, so Chosen get 3 A base, while Termies get 2. True, they're more survivable, but you can pack 10 Chosen into a Land Raider, while you can only pack 5 Termies in, so Chosen do have a (somewhat) reliable delivery system for a close combat unit. Not to mention 5 of the unit can upgrade to meltas, thinning out what you're about to assault in the first place, and you're not left with a mere boltgun when you consolidate as you would be with a combi-melta option on the termies.

and hth termis are efficient ? :tu: termis are on top at first second and last glance . +2sv means fewer of them die . all power weapons means that with any mark or markless they kill more . moving on to the land raider matter. termis can take a LR as a dedicted transport and chosen not . this means a chosen+LR set up not only takes up more points [a lot more points if you take twice as many as you would termis at higher points cost] , but also use up a hvy slot .

 

on the melta thing. If you are buying meltas for your chosen , then for the same points someone else can buy combi weapons . and before you say one shot , may I remind you that a 5 man chosen unit lives exactly 1 opponent turn after using its weapons [and that is assuming he didnt target them before geting in to range] . chosen always worse then termis in 6th ed . be it deathstar, shoting , doing bodyguards for lords etc. And this is not a tournament point of view , because for tournaments you would take bikes , then termis and never chosen .