Rhino rush...

[Circus Nurgling]

Ok, here's what I've been tangling with in my current list building: rhinos. In the past, I always took a rhino, for every squad that could have them. Now, however, vehicles die so easily that I doubt I'd be able to make it to mid-field without having foot-slog it anyway, and might even take a wound or two if the transport explodes. Not to mention it gives up an extra kill point.

 

So should I keep on keepin' on with the rhinos as transports? Or take the plunge and footslog it out like proper ground-pounding infantry? I do run plague marines, so running across the board would be safer than most, but I'm hesitating because of the threat of getting shot up.

 

Thoughts? I couldn't find a topic on this, oddly enough.

[the jeske]

depands on your cash . but considering stuff like flyers and firstblood , the nerf to transports runing rhinos is not optimal.

[Killax]

This is the 2nd topic about this, altough often topics on the Chaos boards are named so offtopic you cannot find what you want fast.

 

We are best as a horde army, hordes do like portable cover saves and some speed.

 

Rhinos can give you this. The thing is (and the main reason I don't use them) that rhino's are worth nothing vs Necrons.

Depending on how your local game store is filled with Necron players use them if you like it, but do ask yourself, what is the added value?

 

I like to run Chosen with Melta's, cheap and effective and very nice with Rhino's due to range issues of the Melta.

Now you could also field a couple of Biker squads with the same task. Now you don't need a Rhino :D.

 

Again ask yourself what it adds to your army. If you run multiple Predator/Rhino sized vechicles the Rhino becomes better.

Chaos Space Marines their Rhino overall is worse because we have different sized vechicles alltogether. Might sound a bit like a mweh tactic but does the job for mech Blood Angels for example. Using it as a shield if needed etc.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

[Circus Nurgling]

@Jeske, yeah that's what I'm thinking too.

 

@Killax: Would've loved to see the original discussion Killax. Still do. Did a search and looked through 7 pages (and about as much in this sub-forum) before posting. Don't mind merging, if a mod sees this and can find the original as long as I can find the topic.

 

I'm starting to build bikers for melta platforms in one of my new lists. I had a stash of them anyhow.

 

My problem is this: Predators aside, if I run them as a shield, and when (not if) that shield falls, I give up kill points. A lot of them, potentially. Granted, that's only going to happen in kill points games, but that is 50% of the games, as well as potentially First Blood.

[Killax]

My problem is this: Predators aside, if I run them as a shield, and when (not if) that shield falls, I give up kill points. A lot of them, potentially. Granted, that's only going to happen in kill points games, but that is 50% of the games, as well as potentially First Blood.

 

Yep and if you doubt about thaking them it's better not to do it.

 

Or in short, I cannot convince you on thaking them for CSM because I can't convince myself either.

[Sception]

first blood. Hull points. ongoing inability to stick an HQ in our mechanized troop squads without dropping a special weapon. Assault nerfs. Rapid fire weapons shooting at full range while moving. Most especially the transport nerfs.

 

No, I don't see rhino rush as a viable thing anymore.

[Jonah]

Rhinos are no longer assault vehicles, and by that I meant you don't use them to charge balls-first into the enemy.

 

They do however give you extra mobility and protection from AP3 templates. Basically they're good for Bolter marines but not for Assault marines.

 

You can still use them in an assault, but they shouldn't be your first-line vehicles. Consider placing Shooty Marines in them and have them tailing a Landraider filled with Assault troops. When in range you can disembark everyone and your Shooty marines soften the target and then your Assault marines do what they do best.

 

You're still fine taking rhinos for all your squads, you just have to be more tactical with their use now.

[--eFTy-->]

Rhinos are no longer assault vehicles, and by that I meant you don't use them to charge balls-first into the enemy.

 

They do however give you extra mobility and protection from AP3 templates. Basically they're good for Bolter marines but not for Assault marines.

 

You can still use them in an assault, but they shouldn't be your first-line vehicles. Consider placing Shooty Marines in them and have them tailing a Landraider filled with Assault troops. When in range you can disembark everyone and your Shooty marines soften the target and then your Assault marines do what they do best.

 

You're still fine taking rhinos for all your squads, you just have to be more tactical with their use now.

 

Exactly that. And in the absence of a land raider, you can still do ok if you use the rhinos as extreme flankers. As long as they don't get the whole enemy army shooting at them and you don't drive them straight at an enemy AT unit, they'll do fine for a turn or two, which is enough to deliver whatever squad they carry closer to the enemy.

 

Frankly, i was about time the 'tactic' of pushing the rhino into the nose of the enemy, laughing as he struggles to blow it up and then assaulting with the unit it carried anyway was dead and gone. I utterly hated it.

[Killax]

Frankly, i was about time the 'tactic' of pushing the rhino into the nose of the enemy, laughing as he struggles to blow it up and then assaulting with the unit it carried anyway was dead and gone. I utterly hated it.

 

In all honesty, I did not hate that, certain armies could handle this quite good, certain armies not.

The downside of it all now is, they go down way to quick to really feel like they matter.

 

I agree they can be good for Rapid Fire Funsies, but why do that if your opponent could also spend another turn to get where he needs to be and effectively do the same...

 

Shooting in general is the better idea in 6th, so staying out of enemies their assault range also is, vs certain armies it can have added value but I don't feel those armies are the SM, Necrons or GK.

[TheDarkOne]

I've been using rhinos to great success with the new CSM codex. I keep them cheap, 40 points, just a dirge caster... and I run them alongside 2 units that can't fit in them, 14 khorne CSM... the marines move as quickly as possible towards the enemy using the rhino for cover, and then when it comes time to charge, i pull the rhino up next to the enemy and deny their overwatch. granted overwatch isn't exactly backbreaking, its nice to deny it. mobile cover, and denial of overwatch...

 

if they die, they die.

[techsoldaten]

In regards to the OP, the answer to the question of whether or not Rhino rushes are still viable is yes and no. Yes, it's still okay to include them, no, they are not going to be used in exactly the same way. If I had to characterize it, you can't count on them to get you all the way down the board, but they can be very effective obstacles to use to gain tactical advantage.

 

I played this list over the weekend in a couple of games, which were good demonstrations of the difference.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=263693

 

The first opponent was a Salamanders army. The way I used Rhinos was pretty simple, they discharged their passengers halfway up the board then sat there as cover for Noise Marines. The Salamanders player was able to blow up 2 of them after they parked, only to expose himself to a withering amount of Sonic Blaster and Blastmaster fire afterwards without being able to get a charge beforehand. I was also able to take out one of his Rhinos with a Blastmaster shot through a firing hole while the Noise Marines were being transported. The Rhinos served as an effective distraction from my bikers, and the Chaos Lord was able to rack up 3 rolls on the Boon table as a result.

 

The way I placed the Rhinos was in 2 staggered lines, with 2 Rhinos in a front line and 2 in a rear line. The ones in the rear were slightly to the right of the ones in the front, leaving about a 2 inch gap that could see through to both ends of the table. When the ones in the front rank were destroyed, I simply moved all of my Noise Marines together so that they all had clear shots around the remaining Rhinos.

 

This game was a big win, I was able to use the Rhinos to force his troops into situations where they were taking shots from 2 units each turn. I was dropping down around 60 shots that ignored cover, and the Rhinos denied him clear lanes to return fire after individual units were being wiped out. When he did blow up Rhinos in the front rank, he didn't have any more firepower to deal with the NMs who were waiting behind them. By the time his close combat Dreadnought was able to take out one of the other Rhinos, most of the rest of his force was already gone. Throughout the game, it felt like he was moving where I wanted him to move.

 

The second battle was against Tau. I was going second, and they were able to take out 2 Rhinos and a biker unit by the end of the first turn. The Rhinos were all destroyed by turn 4, which was good (in a way) because it kept some of his heavier guns off my other units while they advanced. He was shooting at the armor instead of the footslogging NMs, which left me with a lot more guns on the board.

 

This game was a loss, but it felt like the loss was due to tactics moreso than a bad list. I was trying to bring my bikers up around the sides and bring the Rhinos up together through the middle. It may have been better to spread out all my units more for this encounter. What made me think this was that the Tau player was genuinely disrupted when the Obliterators deep struck in his back ranks on turn 4 and took out one of his large vehicles. His success was based more on concentrated fire than anything else. I probably would have been a lot more successful if I could have gotten even one unit into CC, and may have tried moving flat out in the Rhinos to accomplish this.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Recently I started to think about the "rhino dilemma" for my CSM.

 

Transports provide a number of benefits to your units but come with serious disadvantages, especially in the current edition.

 

Mechanizing your units gives them a slight protection from enemy fire. AV11 makes them impervious to S4 weapons that usually focus their fire on your infantry.

Transports also give your units speed. They can move up to 12" then 6" in the shooting phase.

 

However, and here comes the first limitation, you cannot disembark if the vehicle moved more then 6" and in any case you cannot charge in the turn you disembark.

So if we have a target 24" away with a rhino will move 18" in the first turn, 6" in the second and your unit can charge, if you want to do, in the third.

 

If you field footslogging units they move 6"+1d6" per turn, thus in the 3 turns I mentioned above they move 18"+3d6" (from 21" to 36") and that made me think if the transport really makes units faster, if they plan to reach CC.

 

If you don't want run/flat out then footslogging units allow you to fire more weapons.

 

The second limitation of rhinos is their tedency to die easily. AV11 in 6th is not the epitome of durability and rhinos are a prioritary target for many opponents.

If you field a good amount of targets/armour saturation then anti-vehicle weapons may be directed towords different targets but there are ALWAYS good reason for making rhinos prioritory targets.

In first place removing a faster transportation for units that move towrds objective is considered by many players a very good reason to fire on rhinos instead of other vehicles.

Secondly destroying a rhino is one of easiest way to gain the first blood victory point.

 

I'm not saying that rhinos are bad but those circumstances made me to think about their effectiveness.

Feel free to comment, correct or expand what I said. Right now I have not decided about the use of rhinos in my armies, yet.

[Circus Nurgling]

Tech, TeQ are really what worries me about foot-slogging, but losing 2 rhinos first turn is exactly what makes me think that: if you're going to lose them (and the kill points) that easily anyway you might as well not take them and hug all the cover you can get. By any chance did you lose by 4 or 5? Because that would be the worth of 4 rhinos (5 assuming it cost you first blood as well).

[techsoldaten]

Tech, TeQ are really what worries me about foot-slogging, but losing 2 rhinos first turn is exactly what makes me think that: if you're going to lose them (and the kill points) that easily anyway you might as well not take them and hug all the cover you can get. By any chance did you lose by 4 or 5? Because that would be the worth of 4 rhinos (5 assuming it cost you first blood as well).

I lost by quite a bit, it was more like 12 points plus some objectives. We didn't stop to tally at the end, since I didn't really have too much left on the board.

 

It's been almost a full week at this point, I really think the big mistake was with deployment more than any other factor. The deployment map was vanguard strike, and I had all my forces concentrated at an angle that was pretty far from the Tau. Just far enough to get the drop on me.

 

That was my second time playing Tau. The next encounter will be different. *shakes fist*

[Circus Nurgling]

Yeah, give those fish-heads a whoopin' next time.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yeah, give those fish-heads a whoopin' next time.

 

I thought tau DNA was bovine in nature....

[darknightdrako]

It's also a pain that units inside the rhino will feel the effect of shaken/stunned results when disembarking. I think the result also applies after the rhino gets wrecked/blown up.

[Emperors Immortals]

Tech, TeQ are really what worries me about foot-slogging, but losing 2 rhinos first turn is exactly what makes me think that: if you're going to lose them (and the kill points) that easily anyway you might as well not take them and hug all the cover you can get. By any chance did you lose by 4 or 5? Because that would be the worth of 4 rhinos (5 assuming it cost you first blood as well).

I lost by quite a bit, it was more like 12 points plus some objectives. We didn't stop to tally at the end, since I didn't really have too much left on the board.

 

It's been almost a full week at this point, I really think the big mistake was with deployment more than any other factor. The deployment map was vanguard strike, and I had all my forces concentrated at an angle that was pretty far from the Tau. Just far enough to get the drop on me.

 

That was my second time playing Tau. The next encounter will be different. *shakes fist*

 

 

Now this is what interests me, I want to run rhinos as fast mpoving screening units, flat out 1st turn to set up firing positions and dominate an area and then disembark 2nd turn with the troops slogging into firing positions behind them.

 

I love the idea of the NM and I have 6 rhinos ready to go so im keen to find out how you go in future :)

 

Also, im thinking of taking a defiler with dirge caster and running him in the front, as OW denial and front support.

[minigun762]

I'm struggling with this myelf, the value and importance of rhinos.

I'm finding myself drifting over to the footslogging camp but that is more to do with thematic elements vs tactical choices.

 

For Chaos, part of the reason we need rhinos less is the shift from short range melta & power fist squads to plasma and power weapon units. The importance of those short ranges and delivering them is decreased, but I don't think its removed. If you are still running those kind of squads (and they're not bad in 6th) then it makes more sense to continue using that rhino.

Flamer squads can go either way. The short range of the flamer lends itself to taking the battle taxi to get into range quickly but the fact that you can overwatch with flamers now means they aren't useless on a footslogging squad in the same way they were in 5th.

[--eFTy-->]

Also not that if you disembark on turn 2, you get 12+6 + 6+6 = 30" in 2 turns of movement and can still shoot.

 

Rhinos may not be great taxis for assault units anymore, but they are still useful if you don't shove them in front of the enemy's main guns...

[techsoldaten]

Now this is what interests me, I want to run rhinos as fast mpoving screening units, flat out 1st turn to set up firing positions and dominate an area and then disembark 2nd turn with the troops slogging into firing positions behind them.

 

I love the idea of the NM and I have 6 rhinos ready to go so im keen to find out how you go in future :)

 

Also, im thinking of taking a defiler with dirge caster and running him in the front, as OW denial and front support.

A Defiler out in front? How much our tactics have changed since 5th edition! I think there are ways to make this work, but it may involve double Defilers.

 

Let me know how it goes with your Noise Marines. I love using Blastmasters from firing points as an army advances, but I am afraid it's a tactic that will only work until people pick up on the fact you can stun a unit inside a vehicle. A valid strategy I could see is simply trying to stun Rhinos as they move across the board, in order to slowly eat up hull points and make their passengers ineffective when they get into combat.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I hope it's still viable, with the sudden lack of stable teleport points in our Codex I'm basically reliant on Rhinos if I need to move with a purpose. :(

[Excessus]

I have been thinking this a while, but Khestra, you really have an awesome sig! :(

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I have been thinking this a while, but Khestra, you really have an awesome sig! :(

 

Proclamations of personal destruction from an acclaimed author were made to be sigged. :(

[Circus Nurgling]

I have been thinking this a while, but Khestra, you really have an awesome sig! :D

 

Proclamations of personal destruction from an acclaimed author were made to be sigged. :D

 

You know, that's a really good point... *starts cyberstalking A-D-B*