13th Company Size?

[Wookie Archangel]

Okay,

- so heres the issue. I want to create a DIY chapter, and I want it to come from or be very closely linked to an existing original founding chapter. The space wolves were the first army that made. So to create the a good fluff background for a off shoot space wolf army.....what was the size of the 13th company?

- I was thinking that I could come up with a small chapter sized group of raiders from the 13th company. They may see them selves as eldar hunters, or iron warriors hunters, etc.....They have found their way back to Fenris with the rest of the 13th company but see themselves as kind of a "special forces" type group. They are glad to have found their brothers again but they have become so close and tight knit in their time in the eye that they are still slightly distrustful.

- This idea is just forming but Im at the point were i want to make my own army again but want to go a little off the beaten path.

[Blacksad]

the 13th isn't just "a company". many have walked to the 13th stone over the years. Some because they did not agree with the current great wolf, some because they preferred french fries and hamburgers over roast elk, some because they had taken a solemn vow to hunt down a particular foe, and would not return to the fang untill that time they had destroyed their mark, etc etc etc.

 

There's plenty of opportunity for your "chapter" to be one of those many groups that have said goodbye to Fenris and the Fang, and obviously, if your mission was successfull, you could have returned triumphant.

[Growler67]

I think you misunderstand the 13th Company within the Space Wolf lore. They are scavangers and more feral with less vehicle, heavy weapons and specialized support than the "standard" compliment of the other Companies. It sounds more like you want a Raven Guard Armuy than a 13th Company to me.

 

If you wish to come up with your own fluff, that is entirely your business and if you want it to be a Company returning from a long campaign then so be it.This is fantasy afterall. There are those that believe in the hard and fast of the 13th being a singular entity. There are also those that think the 13th represents a Wolf Lord whodisagrees with the Great Wolf and goes off with his Company to do as he wishes. There truly is no right or wrong.....provided you create and develop an adequate "fluffy" explination.

 

If you want "covert ops" you really should be more in line with Raven Guard. Among the Wolf Lords, Erik Morkai's Company is the closest in the way they conduct their battles but they are Scout heavy and most people are reluctant to give up the power armnor for scout armor with so many on the field.

[Wookie Archangel]

From the research ive done so far....it looks like the 13th company was just one company that followed the Thousand Sons into the Eye. So wouldnt they have their own wolf lord, traditions, fighting style, etc....just like all the other great companies???

- Now they have been lost in the Eye for quite awhile so they had to forage gear and weapons out of need, not desire or philosophical reasons. So just hear me out on this......

 

- Lets say roughly 1,000 space wolves of the 13th company return out of the eye of terror. Just for giggles lets say a pre-heresey company of the wolves numbered around 10,000. That way 1,000 left would account for death from them battling chaos all these years in the eye. So any way 1,000 come back out of the eye, while in the eye they have had to create their own rules to survive. To survive they molded them selves into smaller companies to be more mobile and harder to pin down and eliminate. Now that they have returned all of these smaller specialized companies must find some way to re intigrate back into the Wolves.

- Out of these 1,000 or so remaining 13th company wolves Im sure there is enough to create millions of different storylines and such.

[Blacksad]

that's the 1st group of "13th company", that followed Russ? they won't return untill Magnus the Red has been completely destroyed. After them, many have "walked to the 13th stone"

 

this first company had it's own rules during a campaignsetting a few years back, with units of wulfen, grey slayers, etc. Eye of Terror campaign if I'm not mistaken.

[Max_Dammit]

they will not leave the eye until all traitor marines are dead, and there is a chance Russ is with them so i dont see 13th coming out of the eye anytime soon for anything other than to kill some traitors that are trying to escape or attack something just outside the eye.

 

But there are a lot of non 13th company's that have left the fang for all kind of reasons so you can easily build your fluff around that, or do it with the 13th if you like, there your toys bought with your money, but i think most wolves like there 13th in the eye and not outside so there will be a lot of nay sayers.

[Wulfebane]

From the research ive done so far....it looks like the 13th company was just one company that followed the Thousand Sons into the Eye. So wouldnt they have their own wolf lord, traditions, fighting style, etc....just like all the other great companies???

 

This is what our most current codex has to say on the matter.

 

"It has come to represent all of the Great Companies in the history of the Space Wolves who have been destroyed in battle, lost on campaign or recanted their oaths of fealty... " p. 17

 

This suits the OPs idea, though I believe debate has recently (and still) come up undecided on reception of returning Lost Companies. The only problem I see with the idea.. All Space Wolves are the special forces of the imperium (under Deathwatch) and each company is as close-knit as a literal pack of wolves in familial sense. The only analogical difference I could see in "special" tactics is that Wolves are more of a large combat knife instead of a surgical scalpel or a sledgehammer.

[ShadowOfFenris]

You also have to remember that the 13th Great Company was around during the legion days of the chapter. So there was no real limit to how many marines they had in it.

 

Also don't hold yourself to the Codex Astrates, as Space Wolves don't use it.

 

I myself play a 13th Great Company theme list (only way to use my Wulfen models anymore!). The back story for my Great Company states that they disappeared into the warp over 5 millennia ago coming back from campaign, never to be heard from again. After two millennia they were deemed a lost company and their stone removed. Only to reappear latter back from the warp in Fenris space. Now Logan uses them as a special task force hunting targets of interest across the galaxy.

 

I know back in the day, can't remember if around 3rd or 4th ed, there was a chapter approved list for 13th company that GW published.

 

 

ShadowOfFenris

[captain fabian]

Yeah I believe the 13th is not a single body of troops. Everyone that is lost and unaccounted for falls under the 13th stone. This stone after all is DEDICATED to all those wolves that were in the Fang once but are not around anymore for whatever reason that may be (apart from dead).

[Wulfebane]

I know back in the day, can't remember if around 3rd or 4th ed, there was a chapter approved list for 13th company that GW published.

 

 

ShadowOfFenris

 

3rd edition: Codex: Eye of Terror

[Wulfebane]

This might be helpful.

[Valerian]

White Dwarf 283 places 13th Great Company original size at about the same size as a contemporary Chapter, so roughly 1,000.

 

Valerian

[Wookie Archangel]

You also have to remember that the 13th Great Company was around during the legion days of the chapter. So there was no real limit to how many marines they had in it.

 

Also don't hold yourself to the Codex Astrates, as Space Wolves don't use it.

 

I myself play a 13th Great Company theme list (only way to use my Wulfen models anymore!). The back story for my Great Company states that they disappeared into the warp over 5 millennia ago coming back from campaign, never to be heard from again. After two millennia they were deemed a lost company and their stone removed. Only to reappear latter back from the warp in Fenris space. Now Logan uses them as a special task force hunting targets of interest across the galaxy.

 

I know back in the day, can't remember if around 3rd or 4th ed, there was a chapter approved list for 13th company that GW published.

 

 

ShadowOfFenris

 

Cool,

Thats exactly what I was kinda looking at doing for my little force.

- so now the "black stone" is used for companies that disapear, but is the original 13th still lost? I thought Ragnar found them in his last novel?

[Grimtooth]

Read Wolf at the Door. It will give you some insight into the 13th Co right before the Battle of Prospero which is when they were supposedly ordered by Russ to follow the fleeing Magnus and Thousand Sons.

 

Valerian also speaks the truth of about 1k for the 13th Co.

[Bran Scalphunter]

The 13th Company (the original) is still lost and will forever be. They took their duty very seriously and hounded Magnus and his traitor spawn deep into the Eye of Terror after the Battle of Prospero. Any whelp who tells you otherwise will be receiving a visit from the Exterimnatussock shortly.

 

The 13th Company (all others) is a random grab bag. Some are Wolves that were wiped out, disappeared, told the Great Wolf of their time to stuff himself, or what have you.

[Wookie Archangel]

I see the confusion here,

- for my purposes I was refering to the original 13th company. So what im getting here is that the 13th company that Ragnar found in the last novel was one of the "other" 13th company, not the originals......and the original 13th Company will return with Russ when they are done in the eye, right ???

[Wulfebane]

The 13th Co lord he met in Wolf's Honour was Bulveye. According to the most recent codex, the original 13th wolf lord was Jorin Bloodhowl. Whether he's alive or replaced is not mentioned, so its for you to decide for yourself.

 

Should also note, much of the lore in the Space Wolf Omnibus conflicts with other fluff, some of which is canon, some outdated, so you shouldn't view it as gospel and instead just assume its another tall tale recalled by a skjald that likes to exaggerate and use the lessons of the story, rather than trying to discern fact from fiction.

[Bran Scalphunter]

*looks towards the =][= forums*

 

The original 13th Company still fights in the Eye, chasing Magnus and his spawn without end. During the 13th Black Crusade some of the 13th reappeared in the Materium to hunt down the traitors. The Wolves do not speak of the 13th save in past tense as there are organizations that would love to use them as a reason to try and wipe us from the face of the Imperium. Thus, they are forever Lost to us, destined to return with Russ himself when the Wolftime comes.

 

*Glares at the Inquisitorial delegates lurking here*

 

The rest of the Wolves who have been given the 13th Stone are all those that are lost (as described before). There is a big difference between the two groups.

[Grimtooth]

The 13th Co lord he met in Wolf's Honour was Bulveye. According to the most recent codex, the original 13th wolf lord was Jorin Bloodhowl. Whether he's alive or replaced is not mentioned, so its for you to decide for yourself.

 

Should also note, much of the lore in the Space Wolf Omnibus conflicts with other fluff, some of which is canon, some outdated, so you shouldn't view it as gospel and instead just assume its another tall tale recalled by a skjald that likes to exaggerate and use the lessons of the story, rather than trying to discern fact from fiction.

 

The 13th Company met in Wolf's Honour was Bulveye, however that does not discount them as being the original 13th Company. If you have read the IA article on the 13th Co, you would see this about the 13th Co:

FROM THE SAGA OF

JORIN BLOODFANG

In time the ranks of the 6th Legion

swelled to a great host

 

And many bore the Mark

[FRAGMENT MISSING].

 

And so Russ banded them all into

one Great Company

 

And to Bloodfang fell the honour.

Of leading them to laurels and glory

In the name of Russ and the

All Father

 

Bloodfang named [FRAGMENT

MISSING]

Grail; Orkbane; Sigurd; Thorbrand

and Grafeld.

 

To each a retinue was granted

 

And as a band of brothers

the 13th Great Company

 

Reaved across the stars

 

Neither Xenite, nor Apostate

nor Fiend

 

Could stand before [FRAGMENT

MISSING] the Were was upon them.

 

But at the Gates of [FRAGMENT

MISSING] did Bloodfang rage

 

And plunge headlong into

[FRAGMENT MISSING]

 

Neither Kin nor Master could restrain him

 

And beyond the Gates did the

Wulfen-kind pass.

 

At Asaheim the Wolves did cry for

one hundred nights

 

Mourning the passage of their kin.

If you see the emboldened text that has a missing fragment in which Bloodfang named certain members. Bulveye could very well have been one of those named to be given retinue and thus his appearance in Wolf's Honour as a leader of the 13th Co that Ragnar encounters.