Heldrake... Yay or Nay?

[Galadren]

Seen this thing win too many games on it's own not make it a near auto-include. So dangerous. That stupid flamer template that you get to place anywhere on the board when it comes in, that's S6 AP3 and can potentially re-roll wounds.

 

I like the model more after seeing it in person. At least it has back feet, which was something I wasn't sure it was going to have.

 

Yeah, it's disgusting how effective that thing is. A friend of mine ran two with the baleflamers and just those two models picked up 2/3 of the enemy army. Baleflamers in the age of "let's walk because Rhinos suck" is scary.

 

I'm only taking one in my Chaos army, but my Codex: Space Marines army is picking up two Whirlwind Hyperios and an Aegis line with a quad gun after being reworked.

[Dallas Drake]

Seen this thing win too many games on it's own not make it a near auto-include. So dangerous. That stupid flamer template that you get to place anywhere on the board when it comes in, that's S6 AP3 and can potentially re-roll wounds.

 

I like the model more after seeing it in person. At least it has back feet, which was something I wasn't sure it was going to have.

 

Yeah, it's disgusting how effective that thing is. A friend of mine ran two with the baleflamers and just those two models picked up 2/3 of the enemy army. Baleflamers in the age of "let's walk because Rhinos suck" is scary.

 

I'm only taking one in my Chaos army, but my Codex: Space Marines army is picking up two Whirlwind Hyperios and an Aegis line with a quad gun after being reworked.

 

Good, it will hopefully kick GK & SW where it hurts :)

 

DD

[Cleal Baros]

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...932#post6481932

 

For those of you who, like me, dislike the model. ^

 

By far the best conversion I've seen yet although I might even take it further and put a cockpit rather than the head on mine once I get around to shamelessly replicating this guys great work. I'm thinking maybe a tie fighter style glass dome on the front of the 'body'.

 

What do you guys think of it?

[Vaz]

Really toying with the idea of taking 2 Helldrakes.

 

My main FA slot is a unit of 9-10 bikers that my Chaos Lord sometimes sits in.

The idea of rocking out with 2 Helldrakes taking the fight to the enemy sits really good.

 

2 Vector Strikes and 2 ap3 templates letting loose when both are on the field. It certainly promises to cook power armor.

[Olis]

I voted for [Other] because I think the model has potential. As such the base model is not quite good enough for me to definitively say that I like it.

[Brother RedAxe]

I like the front of the model but the back end is sorely lacking. and since I am too broke to buy more bits to fix it I cut some of the extra wing parts and glued them to that stub of a tail similar to atmospheric fighters. Two small wings from the elbow at 45 degrees angles near the end and the two larger elbow wings at about 15 degrees a little further up and more to the side. fixed the whole front is too busy and the back is meh real quick and cheaply.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I have a couple of problems with the model. The first problem is the rather abrupt end section. It just doesn't flow with the rest of the model. The other is that it's a dragon. It feels more Dark Eldar or Chaos Daemons to me, and while I know, sure, Chaos Space Marines and all that, it's just not my style. Otherwise I might be playing Chaos Daemons because, after all, GW did put them in a separate codex. I want machines and Space Marine technology.

 

This last criticism is about the current design aesthetic the whole range seems to be taking concerning the detailing. I don't like the random, higgledly-piggledy trim on the new CSM models. I like the ornate detail, the excessive trim, the overwrought decoration, the ostentation of previous takes on Chaos Marine armour. The new direction, most obviously seen on the wing details of the Heldrake, looks like it was less inspired by the Gothic and more inspire by this:

 

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j91/montismo/cracked_mud_nimb.jpg

 

It's evident on the Warp Talon models, as well, though I think better accomplished on the Dark Vengeance sculpts (which I still don't prefer).

 

That's my 2¢

[Cpt_Reaper]

The way I see it, the Heldrake is meant to be half dragon and half jetfighter but comes across as a biomechanical dragon with features of a Hell Blade. What this means is a model that looks a little off. The model stops at the engines, but feels like it needs a tail. The fluff says it latches onto space faring vessels but the hind legs are too small for such a thing. The wings are tilted forwards like the hell Blade and the hell Talon but as a dragon it looks wrong as a swooping dragon would tilt it's wings back.

 

What it does have is a sort of midway point. With some simple conversion (or complex...either way) it can be a jet fighter with dragon features or a fully fledged dragon. The half and half design just feels like it is the wrong half of each.

 

Going the jet fighter approach one could tuck the wings in, modify the legs to be landing gear, straighten the neck and even shorten it to resemble a cockpit.

 

The dragon approach needs more work, adding a tail, lengthening the rear legs and merge the front arms into the wings like the skyrim dragons. Rather than being several wing-like panels the wings need to really look like one appendage.

 

Just my thoughts on the model.

[Vaz]

I plan on building mine to look like a Manta Ray.. removing the dragon head, putting in a maw, and then going with the back off using modeling cables from Dragonforge, to make it look like a matrix sentinal (maybe not as many cables, but comparable idea)

[hornywingythingy]

If someone got an alternative model for about the same price to use as count-as, please share.

 

Thought about galrauch, the special character chaos dragon from wfb:warriors of chaos?

 

It was an alternative I considered.

[hornywingythingy]

Like it, ordered one with some finecast obliterators today off my lgs, which is all I'm really after to finish off my csm for the time being.

 

On a side note, after the soul grinder moved to fantasy, I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see the heldrake in the next woc book for fantasy/the wd update for them in the next wd. I don't think its fantasy enough for fantasy, but I'm of the same opinion on the soul grinder.

 

Eh, we might not have much time to wait, the next wocbook is out next month so I hear.

 

Its an update for woc, rules and models already leaked on faeit 212.

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/more-...mplete.html?m=1

Basically new character models, marauders on slaanesh steeds, khorne juggerknights and a new warshrine model, kinda lacklustre.

[Sception]

I think the model as is is pretty meh. Not chaos enough, the wing detailing is kind of dumb (and this from someone who really, really likes the trim on the raptors & chosen), looks more like a beast with armor bits bolted on than a vehicle that warped and mutated into a monster due to the powers of chaos possessing it.

 

It does have potential, though. I think the thing is that it's in exactly the wrong state of dragon/jet hybridization. It looks much better if you either go less dragon:

 

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u14/DavHod42/E6CE419D-6EEC-447A-BD87-FF40AA9282F3-23503-0000232277BFA957.jpg

 

 

Or more:

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vZ0-KKkfUNE/UH2Cr_yGfII/AAAAAAAAGII/fCUg9DPW_n8/s1600/47875_357099201046010_649293106_n.jpg

[Olis]

I think the model as is is pretty meh. Not chaos enough, the wing detailing is kind of dumb (and this from someone who really, really likes the trim on the raptors & chosen), looks more like a beast with armor bits bolted on than a vehicle that warped and mutated into a monster due to the powers of chaos possessing it.

 

It does have potential, though. I think the thing is that it's in exactly the wrong state of dragon/jet hybridization. It looks much better if you either go less dragon:

 

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u14/DavHod42/E6CE419D-6EEC-447A-BD87-FF40AA9282F3-23503-0000232277BFA957.jpg

 

 

Or more:

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vZ0-KKkfUNE/UH2Cr_yGfII/AAAAAAAAGII/fCUg9DPW_n8/s1600/47875_357099201046010_649293106_n.jpg

 

Those both look stunning, brother, and I completely agree more emphasis one way or the other would have been great. Btw who made the second one?

[Brother Nihm]

^ Picture #1 is EXACTLY what I have in mind, but I will replace the head with a cockpit.

[Sception]

It's a conversion by Rumplemaster. Dude has a Youtube account and a Facebook page. The latter has more recent stuff, including that awesome drake conversion/repose. He's done a ton of just ridiculously fantastic conversion, including probably the best conversion of

that I've seen. Dude's also done a fantastic Khârn and a killer Forgefiend

 

Some of his stuff is way beyond my meager abilities, but I hope the Drake conversion proves manageable when I eventually get around to adding one probably some time next year. If not, I'll go with the more jet-like conversion by Marshall Faust, which is reported to be rather easy to pull off.

[MagicMan]

^ Picture #1 is EXACTLY what I have in mind, but I will replace the head with a cockpit.

 

 

Thats exactly what i would do, too. Make it look like a warped Hell-Talon, the alternative Mauler-Fiend head wouldn't look too bad either, the cannon one.

 

I really don't like the model, i just don't think it fits in at all... Maybe if Space Marines get a giant, and Tau get a sea monster. :(

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its pretty devastating though, played a 1000 point game against a Chaos force that included one, and it accounted for 75% of the kills that they inflicted.

 

I won the game, but only my Tri-Las predator had a chance of taking it down, and i was waiting for it to go into hover-mode. Wasn't going to waste my time needing sixes to hit.

 

Strength 6, AP 3, ignores cover, not needing to roll to hit on an AV 12 super maneuverable, almost impossible to hit vehicle is pretty beastly...

[Payce]

I voted "Other", so I'll explain. I think the rules are bad on two points; points cost and arnaments. They are kinda linked, so to elaborate;

 

The minimum cost to get the Heldrake on the table is 165 points (naked lord and 2x10 naked Cultists). Then you add the 170 points for... one gun. One Heavy 1 Torrent-template, to be exact. Let's compare to Imperial Guard; they cost 190 points to put their first flyer on the table (naked Company Command and 2x10 naked Veterans). Then you add 130 points for... three twin-linked Lascannons. So the raw numbers; 21 bodies/1 gun at 335 points versus 25 bodies/3 guns at 320 points. I know which side I'll be taking, if you take my meaning.

 

My point is that the Heldrake is massively overcosted for what it returns. It's a backup-unit, a pressure-unit and a threat unit, but a gamewinner? Nothing of the sort. And it takes one single shot from an Interceptor Lascannon to bring it down. Had it been costed at 140/145 points, I'd accept it, but I feel that the Vector Strike rule (which in all fairness, isn't that good) is overcosted by the devs. To further compare with the Vendetta; it dies just as easy, but if you ignore it, it can change games on its own. That LRC full of a TH/SS-deathstar? They're walking now. Your Bastion? Don't rely on it. Artillery in cover? I can get to you fairly easy. That objective at the far end of the table? I just dropped some dudes on it. What other flyers gives for their points compared to the Heldrake is just insane. The Heldrake feels like the buddy you bring along cause he's kinda cool, rather than an actual weapon you can rely on.

 

Having that said.

 

I will likely be fielding one. Not the GW model, but a Dark Elf Black Dragon bionic'd and armoured to the teeth. The combination of the fairly bad rules, and a mediocre model isn't enough to make me field one, but a conversion I really enjoy is enough to make me field pretty much anything. Hell, even Mutilators if I ever get a decent idea for them.

 

EDIT: I can't count.

[Sception]

I don't know. Game results are coming back with that baleflamer being much more impactful than I would have expected. Certainly more so than three lascannons against the infantry focus that the edition seems to be encouraging, and it's harder to bring down than the guard fliers as well.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm still under the impression that it's undergunned, particularly against other fliers (would have liked to see higher strength vector shots and maybe purchaseable anti-air missiles) but I'm less sure of that now than I was a couple weeks ago. Mostly I think it's just not the anti-air specialist we were looking for & had been led to expect. For that, I think we're still stuck with reaper or missile havocs hanging out in bastions or ADLs with quad guns.

[Jonah]

Game-wise it's totally unbalanced at the moment. Opponents have to take 2-3 AA options just to deal with it.

 

But I ****ing love it :(

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Don't get me wrong, I'm still under the impression that it's undergunned, particularly against other fliers (would have liked to see higher strength vector shots and maybe purchaseable anti-air missiles) but I'm less sure of that now than I was a couple weeks ago.

 

If compared to the Hell Talon, it falls right into line. Our Flyers have always been undergunned and underpowered compared to everyone else's, even with Forge World.

[Warsmith Aznable]

It does have potential, though. I think the thing is that it's in exactly the wrong state of dragon/jet hybridization. It looks much better if you either go less dragon:

 

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u14/DavHod42/E6CE419D-6EEC-447A-BD87-FF40AA9282F3-23503-0000232277BFA957.jpg

 

 

Or more:

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vZ0-KKkfUNE/UH2Cr_yGfII/AAAAAAAAGII/fCUg9DPW_n8/s1600/47875_357099201046010_649293106_n.jpg

 

A £45/$75 model should not take that much work to make look decent, though. That's one reason why I went the route I did and used a completely different base for conversion.

[Vesper]

It does have potential, though. I think the thing is that it's in exactly the wrong state of dragon/jet hybridization. It looks much better if you either go less dragon:

 

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u14/DavHod42/E6CE419D-6EEC-447A-BD87-FF40AA9282F3-23503-0000232277BFA957.jpg

 

 

Or more:

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vZ0-KKkfUNE/UH2Cr_yGfII/AAAAAAAAGII/fCUg9DPW_n8/s1600/47875_357099201046010_649293106_n.jpg

 

Stunning conversions, clearly.

Yet, the first one feels like an Eldar thingy to me, and the second still is a dragoooooooon, so not fond of it.

 

Sucks to be us, GW designs for Chaos daemon engines are just awful.

[Slayer le Boucher]

A £45/$75 model should not take that much work to make look decent, though. That's one reason why I went the route I did and used a completely different base for conversion.

 

-Looking at my Armorcast Reaver Titan worth 350$ still in WIP and complet overhaul/conversion process-...i don't agree, or else if i did, i would be qualified as mad..., oh wait! i am mad!

[Lexington]

Not a model or concept I'm hugely fond of. Really, the whole "Codex: Daemon Engines _{and Chaos Space Marines}" approach seems to have gone over like a lead balloon, which is heartening. Maybe it'll cause GW to reconsider their blind drive towards big, splashy kits over good concepts. Here's to to hoping, right?

 

Also, like others, my jaw hit the metaphorical floor upon seeing those conversions that malisteen dug up. Hot daymn.

[Warsmith Aznable]

A £45/$75 model should not take that much work to make look decent, though. That's one reason why I went the route I did and used a completely different base for conversion.

 

-Looking at my Armorcast Reaver Titan worth 350$ still in WIP and complet overhaul/conversion process-...i don't agree, or else if i did, i would be qualified as mad..., oh wait! i am mad!

 

Yes but, to my mind, the Armourcast Reaver Titan doesn't need a fundamental redesign-through-conversion like the Heldrake does. It's fine as-is, so any conversion work done to it is just bonus personalization, whereas I can't think of anything less than radical changes that would make me want to make the Heldrake model part of my army.

 

But here it's just a matter of taste, because I thought the Storm Raven was just fine once the big cowling behind the dorsal turret was removed. As always, YMMV.

 

EDIT: clarity