Heldrake... Yay or Nay?

[Mordenkenain]

I like the idea, but I would have to do some converting before I let it into my army, mainly on that stubby little appendage it calls a tail...

[Sception]

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u14/DavHod42/E6CE419D-6EEC-447A-BD87-FF40AA9282F3-23503-0000232277BFA957.jpg

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vZ0-KKkfUNE/UH2Cr_yGfII/AAAAAAAAGII/fCUg9DPW_n8/s1600/47875_357099201046010_649293106_n.jpg

 

Anyone else considering trying both of these conversions, using the former as a hell talon or hell blade and the latter as a heldrake?

[Olis]

Anyone else considering trying both of these conversions, using the former as a hell talon or hell blade and the latter as a heldrake?

 

Yup. If I ever get the Heldrake, I will not use the stock form. It'll be something like one of those pictures.

[Trilobiteer]

I think the model looks fine from the front but the from the back... not so much. I realize adding a tail would have made it difficult to transport to and from games but it just looks unfinished, and the jet would look a thousand times better if it looked more like the Hellblade's jet. As I suspected though, the conversions people are doing to it look amazing and it certainly has a lot of potential in that department, just like any true chaos model should.

 

As much as I don't like the stock model and pose though I think the rules combined with 6th edition are fast making it a must have choice. A Heldrake with a baleflamer is to infantry what the Vendetta is to vehicles. Absolutely brutal when vsing MEQs. In case it wasn't obvious I play World Eaters and usually run an all close combat list (apart from a Land Raider) which at the moment is getting stomped on by the new 6th edition anti-assaultyness and I've ordered one of these simply in a shameless attempt to become competitive again. The ability to pick up a squad of sternguard or long fangs and remove them from the board is... pretty staggering.

 

Personally I don't think we'll see many Chaos based tourny lists without one if not two of these, and the only thing preventing people from taking all three will be bikes. It's a shame and I hate to say it, but at this stage the new Chaos codex seems to be quickly following the route of the old one in having ridiculously silly unit choices (Mutilators, Warp Talons, Defilers, etc) and ridiculously obvious choices (Sorcerers, Obliterators, Heldrake, Bikes, etc).

[Sception]

Obviously what's terrible and what's good is still being hashed out, as some still aren't convinced on the drake, and I hear a lot more talk in favor of havocs or predators than obliterators, and I'm personally not convinced defilers are all that awful.

 

Some units though, mutilators, talons, possessed, sons on the one hand and sorcerers, lords, bikes on the other, there's a lot more consensus on already. I do see this book suffering from good choice/bad choice syndrome, and ending up with a relatively narrow range of common lists, if not so narrow as the last book.

[Vaz]

Question about the helldrake.. and removing casualties.

 

If the Helldrake comes on, and does the vector strike on the unit manning the Aegis Line, if you pop the angle right is it possible to assassinate the model using the auto cannons, therefore not taking the resulting interceptor fire at the end of movement?

[Sception]

I believe so, though quad guns and Icarus lasers can still fire at their own BS2 [EDIT: no they can't, it seems I imagined this?], and if the model in question is a character it can LOS, and it won't take more than once or twice for your opponents to catch wise and position themselves in such a way that you'll have a hard time sniping the model (quad gun in the center of the unit w/ multiple models adjacent, for instance).

[Vaz]

So you'd be better off just vectoring the gun itself then?

[Sception]

If your goal is to get rid of it, yeah, although there may be better vector targets altogether, depending on the situation.

[Lepaca]

I believe so, though quad guns and Icarus lasers can still fire at their own BS2, and if the model in question is a character it can LOS, and it won't take more than once or twice for your opponents to catch wise and position themselves in such a way that you'll have a hard time sniping the model (quad gun in the center of the unit w/ multiple models adjacent, for instance).

 

This is a bit off-topic but I can't find the rules where it says that the gun can fire on its own and how to destroy the gun itself.

Care to help me out? :lol:

[Prot]

I've used it now in and can't figure how it could 'win games on its own'.

 

It has a fairly hefty point price tag associated to it. I wasn't going to take the Bale Flamer but so many people were hot on it.... By the time I get in flame range on a shooty army, I find I'm forced to hover because the turn radius is too small.

 

The nice vector strike is good, but not amazing. The Baleflamer is nice, but definitely turns it from a medium armor buster to an infantry killer. This still leaves me with issues with opponent's flyers.

 

One game I vectored an IG gunship... stunned it... that's about all I can get out of it.

 

Also I'm having trouble being 'fair' with the shooting radius of the head. It looks like it could turn its neck quite a bit. Also the rule for Baleflamer is 'Torrent' which has quite a radius.... but for the Hades canon... not sure about the radius.

 

Not sold on it yet as a 'must have'. For its points I could include another full las Pred and almost an extra Termie on the side.

[Sception]

This is a bit off-topic but I can't find the rules where it says that the gun can fire on its own and how to destroy the gun itself.

Care to help me out? ;)

 

Hrm. I seem to have imagined the part about gun emplacements being able to fire on their own ballistic skill. However, they do have their own stat line and can be targeted & destroyed on their own, see page 105 of the main rulebook.

[Fibonacci]

This is a bit off-topic but I can't find the rules where it says that the gun can fire on its own and how to destroy the gun itself.

Care to help me out?

 

Hrm. I seem to have imagined the part about gun emplacements being able to fire on their own ballistic skill. However, they do have their own stat line and can be targeted & destroyed on their own, see page 105 of the main rulebook.

The bastion gets to fire its emplaced weapon as long as you are embarked in it. That may be what you are thinking. However, the defense line does not have an automated fire mode.

[Vilicate]

I've used it now in and can't figure how it could 'win games on its own'.

 

It has a fairly hefty point price tag associated to it. I wasn't going to take the Bale Flamer but so many people were hot on it.... By the time I get in flame range on a shooty army, I find I'm forced to hover because the turn radius is too small.

 

The nice vector strike is good, but not amazing. The Baleflamer is nice, but definitely turns it from a medium armor buster to an infantry killer. This still leaves me with issues with opponent's flyers.

 

One game I vectored an IG gunship... stunned it... that's about all I can get out of it.

 

Also I'm having trouble being 'fair' with the shooting radius of the head. It looks like it could turn its neck quite a bit. Also the rule for Baleflamer is 'Torrent' which has quite a radius.... but for the Hades canon... not sure about the radius.

 

Not sold on it yet as a 'must have'. For its points I could include another full las Pred and almost an extra Termie on the side.

 

You're having trouble zipping up 36" and placing a flamer template? Have you tried going up a flank, turning and going 18" to another squad?

 

I have only gone into Hover Mode when I knew that I had to wipe a squad off of an objective that turn or lose the game. Otherwise I'll just fly off the board.

 

So, it's not great a vector striking the three AV12 flyers. It's great against the Storm Talon, any of the Ork PLanes, flying MC's and the DE flyers.

 

That's been my experience.

[Prot]

I've used it now in and can't figure how it could 'win games on its own'.

 

It has a fairly hefty point price tag associated to it. I wasn't going to take the Bale Flamer but so many people were hot on it.... By the time I get in flame range on a shooty army, I find I'm forced to hover because the turn radius is too small.

 

The nice vector strike is good, but not amazing. The Baleflamer is nice, but definitely turns it from a medium armor buster to an infantry killer. This still leaves me with issues with opponent's flyers.

 

One game I vectored an IG gunship... stunned it... that's about all I can get out of it.

 

Also I'm having trouble being 'fair' with the shooting radius of the head. It looks like it could turn its neck quite a bit. Also the rule for Baleflamer is 'Torrent' which has quite a radius.... but for the Hades canon... not sure about the radius.

 

Not sold on it yet as a 'must have'. For its points I could include another full las Pred and almost an extra Termie on the side.

 

You're having trouble zipping up 36" and placing a flamer template? Have you tried going up a flank, turning and going 18" to another squad?

 

I have only gone into Hover Mode when I knew that I had to wipe a squad off of an objective that turn or lose the game. Otherwise I'll just fly off the board.

 

So, it's not great a vector striking the three AV12 flyers. It's great against the Storm Talon, any of the Ork PLanes, flying MC's and the DE flyers.

 

That's been my experience.

 

You mean use one turn to move. Next turn rotate, move again, then flame?

 

Doesn't that seem like a lot of planning and points (we are talking turn 3 best case scenario) before you can flame something?

 

My only experience with the flyer is against IG, so they are mostly hugging the back lines and the Aegis defense line.

 

What firing arc are you giving the flyer for the Bale Flamer vs. the Hades Canon?

[Vilicate]

Umm, you can move 36" and still fire? Flyers can move any distance and still shoot four weapons, unless I'm misremembering rules here. That could be the case. In which case, even moving it 24" and shooting puts the entire flamer template in their deployment zone, assuming a 48" table.

 

I've been giving it a 45 degree ark of sight from the front of the model for killing and casualty removal, just like it's supposed to have. It's limited to me what exactly it can kill, but most of the time it hasn't mattered.

 

To be fair, I haven't played it against IG yet. I've run it against SM, GK and Orks, and it'd done very well. BUt those are more "midfield" armies, so I'm not sure it'd do as well against an army that castles up in the corner, with lots of access to skyfire weapons. Also, you're limiting the amount of pass overs you're going to get with it as well if they're castled.

[Sception]

no, first turn come in at an angle that will let you flame one unit, then next turn rotate, move, flame another. That's not very hard to pull off. You aren't going to be able to focus on one unit round after round with it, but then again that's not really what fliers do.

 

I do regret that it isn't as good at hunting other fliers as we had hoped, but that's just not what it is. What it is is the toughest flier in the game at AV12 with daemon and IWND, with a torrent weapon that can decimate a unit of marines a turn even if in heavy cover, though lining up shots takes considerable forethought. It's priced pretty heavily for its offensive output, and I wouldn't call it a 'must buy' by any stretch, but neither is it bad.

[Prot]

Umm, you can move 36" and still fire? Flyers can move any distance and still shoot four weapons, unless I'm misremembering rules here. That could be the case. In which case, even moving it 24" and shooting puts the entire flamer template in their deployment zone, assuming a 48" table.

 

I've been giving it a 45 degree ark of sight from the front of the model for killing and casualty removal, just like it's supposed to have. It's limited to me what exactly it can kill, but most of the time it hasn't mattered.

 

To be fair, I haven't played it against IG yet. I've run it against SM, GK and Orks, and it'd done very well. BUt those are more "midfield" armies, so I'm not sure it'd do as well against an army that castles up in the corner, with lots of access to skyfire weapons. Also, you're limiting the amount of pass overs you're going to get with it as well if they're castled.

 

 

Yea I only got one ... maybe 2 shots with it, and one vector attack.

 

We played a scenario where we faced off on the table lengthwise. So of course he was castled up.

 

Turn one, it's in reserve. Turn 2 it moves 36", no range on anything. Turn three I rotate it, move, get a vector on a vehicle. Turn 4 One Bale flame shot. Turn 5 it is on the back row, and even a full 45 degree turn doesn't give me a shot. So I went into hover mode to be able to shoot it (did not want to leave the table so late in the game.) Game ends.

 

So I think I got one vector, and 1-2 flames. Not that great against a castled up IG army, in that scenario. Thankfully it came on in turn 2 or I might not have had a shot with the flamer.

 

I'll keep it in the list for now, but the bikes are probably closer to 'must have' for me personally.

[Dallas Drake]

Run 2 of them :tu:

 

Dallas

[minigun762]

Run 2 of them :rolleyes:

 

Dallas

 

It seems like an obvious choice to double up on but its SO expensive already so taking a pair of them hurts.

 

I know everyone loves the flamer but the hades coupled with demonforge gives it one of our better AA options and it helps to mitigate the issue of not being within range of something.

[Very_Noisy_Marine]

I like dragons and i like robots but HelTurkey just doesn't do it for me.

 

Would have prefered to have seen something more like the Helblade.

 

My sentiments exactly.

[Prot]

Run 2 of them ^_^

 

Dallas

 

It seems like an obvious choice to double up on but its SO expensive already so taking a pair of them hurts.

 

I know everyone loves the flamer but the hades coupled with demonforge gives it one of our better AA options and it helps to mitigate the issue of not being within range of something.

 

I agree. I typically play 1500 pts and it seems the other flyers in other armies seem better priced point wise... what do you guys think? I used to play IG, and the Vendetta is a beast, and transport.... Blood Angels are set, and of course Necrons.

 

At 1500 for flying flamer, like I said it doesn't blow me away. As minigun says, it is a fairly costly unit and I'm tempted to try the hades variant so at least I have some flyer _defense_ in my army!

[Kelanen]

Ruleswise it's okay. Not great, but not terrible either.

 

The model is awesome however!

[Warsmith Aznable]

At 1500 for flying flamer, like I said it doesn't blow me away. As minigun says, it is a fairly costly unit and I'm tempted to try the hades variant so at least I have some flyer _defense_ in my army!

 

An AP3 flamer that has Torrent. It's... beautiful to behold.

[Kelanen]

Hrm. I seem to have imagined the part about gun emplacements being able to fire on their own ballistic skill. However, they do have their own stat line and can be targeted & destroyed on their own, see page 105 of the main rulebook.

 

I suspect you are remembering the original interceptor gun rules from planetstrike?