Daemon Weapon Question for Generic Lords

[Sception]

I know it's crazy but if you are wanting to use the DV guy with the sword why not just proxy it as the Axe of Blind Fury.

Very few people out there will be anal enough to stop you from using a 'Sword of Blind Fury' if you state it before the game.

 

I'd be fine with that, if the axe weren't mark-locked. Besides, I've already got a lord with an axe rocking that gimmick.

 

 

What was really needed-

 

Chaos Rewards:

Weapon Possession (25 points). Choose one melee weapon the model possesses that does not already have the 'specialist weapon' or 'daemon weapon' special rules. That weapon gains the 'daemon weapon' special rule. (see page whatever)

 

 

All your generic daemon weapon needs covered in one easy equipment entry, doesn't overshadow the unique weapons with their individual properties and abilities, and is slightly less points efficient to offset their 1/army restriction.

[Arikel]

Well this got flooded with responses while I wasn't looking;) Thanks for all the tips. I was hoping to make my fellow a warped out slanesh follower, Fast on the attack and with a whole crapton of them, but when I got to the points section I kept looking for the daemon weapon option and it wasn't there. Grr. The dual power weapon idea is interesting and might be worth it but I wanted to use the DV lord as is. Never thought I'd miss my regular relic blade option so much, sad that chaos doesn't have an equivalent.

[Moress]

I see a lot of talk about the black mace, but how do you guys feel about the Khorne Axe? I'm thinking about trying it out next week. AP2 Str 6 seems really juicy for an all comers list.

 

The black mace is great for clearing out hordes of models but, what if a MC charges you with T6? A 1/6 chance to outright kill isn't so great anymore. How about if I challenge an enemy warlord? Statistically speaking, the numbers favor the Khorne axe still.

 

A lord with MoK and the axe cost the same as the black mace, but you trade 1bs/1ws for an extra attack on the charge. Pretty even imo.

[Hellrender]

its ''saver''. The axe kills a lot more varied targets, with alot more certainty. no matter the toughness or armour save, that axe will most likely wound it.

So you buy certainty with the axe.

 

The Mace provides something else. The first is the option to cause instant death to anything. The second is to thin hordes dramatacly. However, if you have bad luck with your enemy saving everything (MEQ & TEQ) then the mace wont help you much. So there is risk involved..

 

They serve different purposes. As such, they should be used for those purposes. I mean, a lascannon wont shoot at a marine, and a bolter not at a leman russ XD

The Mace is perfect for the sergeants, the infantry, and what not, that is what the whole special rule is about. The Axe has higher strenght, better AP, and is thus much more suited for expensive models, like Calgar, DP's, Monsters, etc.

 

As with everything in your list, it should have a purpose, and you should build/think/plan around that.

[Sception]

The mace lets you damage a unit even if you're trapped in a sacrificial challenge with their champion. It also lets you put a daemon weapon on a lord who isn't khorne-marked, as that mark doesn't bring you much apart from access to the axe. Plagues are better as troops than 'zerkers, and the MoN protects you from instant death from S8 attacks. Sons are worse than terminators [edit]berzerkers[/edit], but the 3++ save you can get out of the MoT is a really big deal for characters expecting to get stuck in challenges.

 

Overall, I like the axe lord better than the mace lord, myself, But I can see why some favor the mace.

[Moress]

its ''saver''. The axe kills a lot more varied targets, with alot more certainty. no matter the toughness or armour save, that axe will most likely wound it.

So you buy certainty with the axe.

 

The Mace provides something else. The first is the option to cause instant death to anything. The second is to thin hordes dramatacly. However, if you have bad luck with your enemy saving everything (MEQ & TEQ) then the mace wont help you much. So there is risk involved..

 

They serve different purposes. As such, they should be used for those purposes. I mean, a lascannon wont shoot at a marine, and a bolter not at a leman russ XD

The Mace is perfect for the sergeants, the infantry, and what not, that is what the whole special rule is about. The Axe has higher strenght, better AP, and is thus much more suited for expensive models, like Calgar, DP's, Monsters, etc.

 

As with everything in your list, it should have a purpose, and you should build/think/plan around that.

 

I disagree that the mace is better at thinning out hordes than the axe. Here is some basic math I did (in matlab, sue me :P).

 

%% Asume both the lord and the chapter master get their bonus charge +1A or +2A (rage), Average roll on D6 for DW=3.5

%% K=Khorne lord with axe, CC=Chapter master w/ relic weapon(+2s,AP2) and ++4, SM=standard tactical marine

KvCC = 9.5*.5*(5/6)*.5

CCvK = 4*(2/3)*(5/6)*.5

KvSM = 9.5*(2/3)*(5/6)

 

%% L=Lord with mace

LvCC = 8.5*.5*(5/6)*1/3

CCvK = 4*.5*(5/6)*.5

LvSM = 8.5*(2/3)*(5/6)*1/3+7*1/3 % assumed 7 models within 3" of the lord (very generous)

 

results:

 

KvCC =

 

1.9792

 

 

CCvK =

 

1.1111

 

 

KvSM =

 

5.2778

 

 

LvCC =

 

1.1806

 

 

CCvK =

 

0.8333

 

 

LvSM =

 

3.9074

 

Versus the a Chapter Master, the Lord with MoK and the Axe deals about 2 wounds a turn, while taking 1.11. The lord with the mace deals 1.18 but takes .83 wounds in return due to his higher WS. Now the lord with the mace has about a 40% chance to cause ID on the charge, assuming the CM has a +3 save, if he has a 2+ save its down to about 20%. I notice many players in my meta have a hard on for +2/++4 saves, so the axe seems like a god send against enemy characters, but this is obviously my meta and your mileage my vary.

 

Now against standard MEQ, the Axe lord still kills more MEQ per turn of CC than the mace lord does, even if he has seven! models within 3" of him, which I don't think is very likely. The only area that I can see the mace being better is when you have to challenge his sergeant, and now all your S6, AP2 attacks have to allocated to a 1 wound model with no inv save, and probably no upgrades either. In this scenario the mace would still allow you to kill units around the lord, even though all his attacks went into his challenge, however the way I see it, (and the way I play it currently because I have the models, again, ymmv), the Khorne lord also lets me unlock berzerkers as a troop choice, and I almost always run him with a squad of berzerkers, so I'm not as afraid of being tarpitted by a massive unit of throw away units because I have counter charge, CCW, and rage, so I get 4 attacks on the charge at WS5, S5, or 3 attacks at WS5, S4 if I'm charged and not already locked in combat. I also have the option of selection the aspiring champ from the squad to issue the challenge to a sacrificial sergeant/champ which leaves my lord free to blow through the squad.

 

This is all theory crafting on my part (i've just got back into the game/hobby and I only have one game of 6th ed under my belt), but just punching in the numbers, they seem to favor the axe in nearly every way, weather it be horde clearing, elite hunting, or smacking around enemy characters. It does it for the same price, it does it reliably, and it as the added benefit of allowing you to take an elite choice as a troop choice.

 

The place the mace REALLY does shine is when your fighting something with a +4 save or worse.

 

LvGe = 8.5*(2/3)*(5/6)*1/3+7 % assuming 7 models within 3" and toughness of 4

 

LvGe =

 

8.5741

 

This does beg the question though, what kind of units do you absolutely have to assault with a 130+ point lord, along with his supporting unit, and maybe even the vehicle that had to get him into combat, that is so good that had to warrant his attention, but only has a +4 save or worse?

 

 

Edit: Good god, my spelling and grammar mistakes make my own eyes hurt.

Edit2: Added stats for the mace against +4 saves and worse.

 

TL:DR - Both weapons are function great, however the axe is marginally better for a non MC character, unless you do not want to take a MoK on your lord for whatever reason, then the mace is a very, very close second choice.

[Brother Ambroz]

Moress, your whole theorycrafting is based on the fact that a lord with the black mace will be using it for challenges. In my opinion it's always far better to use a mace lord against the squad (one failed save against the squad and the blast goes off) and have the champion or another character take over challenges.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Moress]

Moress, your whole theorycrafting is based on the fact that a lord with the black mace will be using it for challenges. In my opinion it's always far better to use a mace lord against the squad (one failed save against the squad and the blast goes off) and have the champion or another character take over challenges.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

I did account for the lord(s) attacking the squad. The Axe lord will kill approximately 5.25 MEQ troops. The Mace lord will kill approximately 3.9 MEQ models (and this is assuming there are 7 models within 3" of him, which is unlikely). The only place the mace does better is against models with a 4+ save or worse, in which case, what assault units can you think of with a 4+ save or worse that warrant such a commitment of points, models, and mobility that you need to be in CC asap and whip them off the board with such a squad?

[Lord_Starscream]

Yea, right now I'm trying to equip my Nightlords Chaos Lord and I was hoping for a generic Daemon Weapon.

 

The Black Mace is extremely underwhelming. The Axe is Khorne only, and the Murder Sword is... well. I was going to give my Lord 2 weapons for CC. So. Uhm. Its pointless given that it'd basically be a super high point power sword most of the game.

 

Sad.

[Minsc]

Uhm. Its pointless given that it'd basically be a super high point power sword most of the game.

 

Gogo Lightning Claw + Powerfist.

To avoid sudden unexpected death, MoN or MoTz is recommended.

[Moress]

Yea, right now I'm trying to equip my Nightlords Chaos Lord and I was hoping for a generic Daemon Weapon.

 

The Black Mace is extremely underwhelming. The Axe is Khorne only, and the Murder Sword is... well. I was going to give my Lord 2 weapons for CC. So. Uhm. Its pointless given that it'd basically be a super high point power sword most of the game.

 

Sad.

 

The black mace isn't bad, its only slightly worse than the Khorne DW, so if say for fluff reasons you want a generic DW, the mace is still a great weapon. The guys who get screwed the most are nurgle, Tzeetch, and slaneesh lords because they don't have god specific DW's, though they can still take the mace (again, not a bad option).

 

A popular set up I've been seeing in my gaming circle, is a lord on a bike with PF and LC with a squad of spawns. Quick, rather cheap, and efficient, and it gives you options.

[Hellrender]

you didnt calculate 4+ armour saves or worse either. Now i know, there are a lot of space marine armies out there, but it could heaviliy influence the use of the mace.

[Iron Sage]

Yea, right now I'm trying to equip my Nightlords Chaos Lord and I was hoping for a generic Daemon Weapon.

 

The Black Mace is extremely underwhelming. The Axe is Khorne only, and the Murder Sword is... well. I was going to give my Lord 2 weapons for CC. So. Uhm. Its pointless given that it'd basically be a super high point power sword most of the game.

 

Sad.

 

 

??????????????????????????

 

Now the arguably best gear we have in the codex is "extremly underwhelming"? That makes sense :/

 

Your statement is obvously ridiculous in the extreme, but hey, thats okay, write whatever nonsense you want...

 

Both weapons are very, very good. How someone can manage to actually complain about the Black Mace, is rather astounding, but then again, I probably shouldn`t be surprised.

 

So "oh no, AP 4, this sucks!!", eh? Well, it does not decrease WS like the axe, it always wounds on 2+, it gives you +D6 attacks unless you roll a 1. It also has all of those toughness tests. Still sucks of course :lol:

 

 

 

 

Newsflash: Only the Khorne character can use the Axe. This in itself is very limiting.

 

Newsflash: Everyone else can use the Black Mace. Obviously, this is not limiting at all.

[Minsc]

Now the arguably best gear we have in the codex is "extremly underwhelming"? That makes sense :/

 

While I do agree with you that the Black Mace is hardly bad, not to mention "extremely underwhelming", it's not the shining beacon of hope that some make it out to be either.

I prefer AoBF over Black Mace myself, not only because it's 10 pts cheaper, but because it's much more reliable (if you can call a Daemon Weapon reliable that is).

 

With that said, AoBF is only for Khorne-lords (Putting it on a DP would be a waste), so it's use is somewhat limited.

Black Mace really shines against GEQ's and to some extent, 3+ saves because one wound should be able to slip trough. Against 2+ however, it's just a very expensive Power Mace most of the time.

 

In the end, both are good weapons, but that still doesn't prevent me from wishing we had at least 2 more Daemonic Weapons to choose from. (One for Tzeentch and one for Slaanesh - Black Mace is clearly Nurgle-esque.)

[Excessus]

Remember, the mace is a weapon designed to tackle hordes. I don't know of any hordes with a 3+ save, but I might have missed something. Against an IG blob or an Ork boys squad, the mace will most likely kick some ass...

 

http://i.imgur.com/QRHqc.gif

 

...add a lvl 3 biomancy sorcerer for some enfeebling and watch those tests fail! :D

[Minsc]

+1 for that .jpeg Excessus! :D

[Sception]

The point stands though that there are no hordes in 40k that warrant the inclusion of a 200 point HQ tooled up specifically to tackle them. Hordes in 40k are quite well enough handled by the bolters, bolt pistols, and chainswords of our regular marines, the battle cannons and autocannons and baleflamers of our daemon engines, the heavy flamers and combi bolters of our terminators, the combi bolters and melee attacks of our bikes, just everything. You do not need to tool up a 200 point HQ to take on hordes, because 200 points of anything in our army will take on hordes just as easily.

 

What we do have problems with is elites. The melee elites and HQs of many other factions just walk all over our own melee elites, supposed specialty of our faction notwithstanding, especially those with 2+ saves, and the blinding axe provides a much more effective tool against that weakness while also being very, very effective against hordes just by accident, because most of our stuff is.

 

Not that the mace is bad. If for some reason you just don't want the mark of khorne on your lord (you want the 3++ save from MoT + sigil, or you want plague marine troops & immunity to instant death from S8 attacks from Mark of Nurgle, or you just want to stay unaligned for thematic reasons alone), then the mace is a perfectly acceptable substitute that's probably better than any of the other weapons you then have access to, if only because the designers refused to give us any other daemon weapons to choose from. But if you're willing to take the mark of khorne, then the axe will serve you better overall.

 

 

As for the gif of sauron: yeah that's awesome. Just remember that Sauron is like 20 feet tall, which makes him, you guessed it, a Daemon Prince. And the Black Mace is exactly that awesome in the hands of a Daemon prince. Just don't be too disappointed if Isulduur rolls up and hacks your ring finger off with a force sword, instant killing your crazy expensive daemon prince with a single blow and with it your hopes of victory.

[Fibonacci]

Now the arguably best gear we have in the codex is "extremly underwhelming"? That makes sense :/

Follow the math; it does not lie. The mace does not really come into full power until it is given to a Daemon Prince. Since this is a discussion for what to give a Generic Lord, the mace is only situationally useful and even then it is not as strong as the axe while costing 10 points more.

 

 

 

Your statement is obvously ridiculous in the extreme, but hey, thats okay, write whatever nonsense you want...

That line speaks volumes but not in the way you intended.

[Iron Sage]

Now the arguably best gear we have in the codex is "extremly underwhelming"? That makes sense :/

 

While I do agree with you that the Black Mace is hardly bad, not to mention "extremely underwhelming", it's not the shining beacon of hope that some make it out to be either.

I prefer AoBF over Black Mace myself, not only because it's 10 pts cheaper, but because it's much more reliable (if you can call a Daemon Weapon reliable that is).

 

With that said, AoBF is only for Khorne-lords (Putting it on a DP would be a waste), so it's use is somewhat limited.

Black Mace really shines against GEQ's and to some extent, 3+ saves because one wound should be able to slip trough. Against 2+ however, it's just a very expensive Power Mace most of the time.

 

In the end, both are good weapons, but that still doesn't prevent me from wishing we had at least 2 more Daemonic Weapons to choose from. (One for Tzeentch and one for Slaanesh - Black Mace is clearly Nurgle-esque.)

 

Well I agree with this.

I reacted and in retrospect in a too irate way ,( sorry Lamparth) to the "extremly underwhelming" bit, when the weapon is clearly very good.

 

I am also very happy that its not God specific. So while I agree with you that there could have been more of them, I don`t necesarilly agree we need more deity specific weapons.

But sure, more stuff is always very nice, and I too would have liked more.

[Iron Sage]

Now the arguably best gear we have in the codex is "extremly underwhelming"? That makes sense :/

Follow the math; it does not lie. The mace does not really come into full power until it is given to a Daemon Prince. Since this is a discussion for what to give a Generic Lord, the mace is only situationally useful and even then it is not as strong as the axe while costing 10 points more.

 

 

 

Your statement is obvously ridiculous in the extreme, but hey, thats okay, write whatever nonsense you want...

That line speaks volumes but not in the way you intended.

 

Bizarre statement. The axe only functions on a Khorne lord, which is quite limiting. A Slaanesh lord, a Tzeentch lord, an undivided lord and a Nurgle lord cannot at all take it. And the Black Mace is clearly a very good weapon and especially if you deliver it with speed and hardly "extremly underwhelming", but again, write whatever nonsense you would like.

[Brother Ambroz]

Most of the batreps I've seen the players have used black maces on their lords and done fairly well, even against MEQ.

[Moress]

you didnt calculate 4+ armour saves or worse either. Now i know, there are a lot of space marine armies out there, but it could heaviliy influence the use of the mace.

 

I did, see quote below.

 

LvGe = 8.5*(2/3)*(5/6)*1/3+7 % assuming 7 models within 3" and toughness of 4

 

LvGe =

 

8.5741

 

Did people even read my posts? lol

[Lord_Starscream]

Now the arguably best gear we have in the codex is "extremly underwhelming"? That makes sense :/

 

While I do agree with you that the Black Mace is hardly bad, not to mention "extremely underwhelming", it's not the shining beacon of hope that some make it out to be either.

I prefer AoBF over Black Mace myself, not only because it's 10 pts cheaper, but because it's much more reliable (if you can call a Daemon Weapon reliable that is).

 

With that said, AoBF is only for Khorne-lords (Putting it on a DP would be a waste), so it's use is somewhat limited.

Black Mace really shines against GEQ's and to some extent, 3+ saves because one wound should be able to slip trough. Against 2+ however, it's just a very expensive Power Mace most of the time.

 

In the end, both are good weapons, but that still doesn't prevent me from wishing we had at least 2 more Daemonic Weapons to choose from. (One for Tzeentch and one for Slaanesh - Black Mace is clearly Nurgle-esque.)

 

Well I agree with this.

I reacted and in retrospect in a too irate way ,( sorry Lamparth) to the "extremly underwhelming" bit, when the weapon is clearly very good.

 

I am also very happy that its not God specific. So while I agree with you that there could have been more of them, I don`t necesarilly agree we need more deity specific weapons.

But sure, more stuff is always very nice, and I too would have liked more.

 

But the thing is, it IS underwhelming. In a game where 70% of all players play some flavour of Space Marines, that thing is NOT gonna help compared to just getting *more* attacks that tear through more targets. Its a gimick weapon, perhaps as gimicky as the Sword of Murder. Instant Death is awesome, when your opponents have a decent chance of dying from it.

 

There are few units in the game that it really shines against. Nobz would be one of them. Other then Nobz however, I really just don't see the point at all. High toughness, high armour save units will basically be being attacked by a super Chainsword that instantly kills them. Fighting an enemy Captain with Relic Blade would be a bad day for a Chaos Lord equiped with the Black Mace. A very bad day indeed. It kills hordes. Yep. It sure does. But as previously stated, we've got TONS of stuff that burns through the masses. We've got very little to deal with Terminators and HQs. And the Black Mace fails at that miserably.

[Moress]

I prefer AoBF over Black Mace myself, not only because it's 10 pts cheaper.

They're the same price. You have to include the mandatory cost of the MoK to take the axe.

 

 

The point stands though that there are no hordes in 40k that warrant the inclusion of a 200 point HQ tooled up specifically to tackle them. Hordes in 40k are quite well enough handled by the bolters, bolt pistols, and chainswords of our regular marines, the battle cannons and autocannons and baleflamers of our daemon engines, the heavy flamers and combi bolters of our terminators, the combi bolters and melee attacks of our bikes, just everything. You do not need to tool up a 200 point HQ to take on hordes, because 200 points of anything in our army will take on hordes just as easily.

 

What we do have problems with is elites. The melee elites and HQs of many other factions just walk all over our own melee elites, supposed specialty of our faction notwithstanding, especially those with 2+ saves, and the blinding axe provides a much more effective tool against that weakness while also being very, very effective against hordes just by accident, because most of our stuff is.

 

Not that the mace is bad. If for some reason you just don't want the mark of khorne on your lord (you want the 3++ save from MoT + sigil, or you want plague marine troops & immunity to instant death from S8 attacks from Mark of Nurgle, or you just want to stay unaligned for thematic reasons alone), then the mace is a perfectly acceptable substitute that's probably better than any of the other weapons you then have access to, if only because the designers refused to give us any other daemon weapons to choose from. But if you're willing to take the mark of khorne, then the axe will serve you better overall.

 

 

As for the gif of sauron: yeah that's awesome. Just remember that Sauron is like 20 feet tall, which makes him, you guessed it, a Daemon Prince. And the Black Mace is exactly that awesome in the hands of a Daemon prince. Just don't be too disappointed if Isulduur rolls up and hacks your ring finger off with a force sword, instant killing your crazy expensive daemon prince with a single blow and with it your hopes of victory.

 

You sir, hit the nail on the head. On a DP the mace is amazing, but then it goes back to the DP not having EW and getting blown off the board by some S10 weapon.

[Minsc]

They're the same price. You have to include the mandatory cost of the MoK to take the axe.

 

Well, sure.

That's one way to think, except that the BM-Lord is most likely to buy a Mark as well.