Count the7 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I know that this has probably been tackled else where and in some depth, but with the release of the new FW HH book i was glad to see light thrown on the generic ORBAT ( Sorry please excuse Brithish army terms.... i ment Order of Battle) of the late Crusade Legions layied down. As a Massive fan of the HH and the 40k universe it had always got to me the way that authors that i admire get carried away with out a thought to how an army works (be that Comand and Control or logistics.. ect). For example with every Gaunts Ghost novel you could see how Dan Abnett started to under stand more about the way things work, and that a Regiment of Guard whos Comand structure cosisting of 1 Col Commisar, 1 Col, 1 Major and a load of Sergents would loose the whole echilon of comand every time they went off on a Recce together behind enemy lines? Any way i digress please forgive me, The Late Crusade Legion would of origanaly followed the 2 Teran Patterns: "Croms New Model" A referance to Oliver Cromwells New Model Army of 1665, and would explain the "Platoon" size units led by a Lt, Companies and Battalions as sub units of the chapter along with terminolagy for Sergents and Officer ranks. The second Model was that of Aincient Rome. using Ranks such as Decurion, Centurion, Legit and Pretor and Unit types such as Century, Cohort, and Legion. Along with the helmet Crests and other paraphanalia. This can be used to add a lot more depth to your Pre heresy armys when you reflect on your veterans and how each Primarch changed the Make up of his Legion when he was found. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 From most sources I have gathered the SM Legions were ~ 75,000-100,000 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Not being funny but, do you have a question? If you want to know which system the Legions use, it's much more like the second one than the first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count the7 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 In the HH books it never reflected the true scale of a legion, esecialy as withe the Death Guard in Flight of the Isenstine where The Death Guard never Numbered over 7 Companys, and at one point Garro is fighting in CC withe the Xenos enemy and looks over to see Grulgor and Typhon (two other Company Comanders fightin) in CC at Motarions side. Garro seems to be leading a normal Comand Squad with a Veteran Sgt. A Legion like the Death Guard would number over 300,000 Legionaries and Each Great Company would Consist of a number of Chapter size Units (i refer to them as Cohorts in my Army), and each of those would consist of a number of tactical Companies (i refer to mine as Centuries to avoid confusion) again following the roman Model of rank and unit distinction to avoid confusion with the 7 Great Companies and there Commanders who hold the rank of Captain. This still would not account for such large numbers of troops unless other Legion formations were held out side of the great Companies, Such as Corps of destroyers, seige engeniers, Fleet, Armour Reconacance, and Super Heavys Ect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count the7 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 The betrayal book threw some interesting questions out. with the fluff and background to the colour plates. Morturg Held the rank of Leiutent with in the Death Guard whilst another Trator was promoted to Centurion following Isstvan III. some World Eaters held Roman Ranks whilst some sons of Horus held the Rank of Leiutenant. I just think that it adds a bit more depth, especialy when you get to themost divergant Legions such as the Space Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Ultramarines wat the biggest Legion numbering 250k Legionnaires. Most Legions have ~100k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Legions are divided into chapters of roughly 1000 marines. Each lead by a Lord commander with a selection of senior Consuls Each chapter also has access to battle barges, assault craft, escort and gunship squadrons, as well as dirt side armour Each chapter is broken down into two battalions Lead by a lieutenant commander and his own consul staff Attached assets include super heavies, skimmers, artillery and recon sections Each battalion contains 5 to 10 companies Each company is lead by a captain Attached assets include, dread, a single heavy support squad, assault squads, tanks and dreads Under the captain there are 3 lieutenants. Each in charge of Two of squads of 10 to 20 marines, lead by a sergeant and 1 support squad lead by a sergeant Example Chapter Lord commander, command squad and advisers 2 lieutenant commanders command squads and advisors 10 captains, with command squads 30 lieutenants 90 sergeants 540 to 1140 tactical marines 120 to 270 specialist marines Add on to this Heavy weapon squads (with sergeants) Assault squads (with sergeants) Recon squads (with sergeants) Veteran squads (with sergeants) Skimmer Squadrons (with sergeants) Tank Squadrons (with sergeants) Artillery Squadrons (with sergeants) Super Heavy tanks Tech marine covenants Apothecarion sections Dreadnaught talons Transport pool Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count the7 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Thats where each Legion Differs, the Legion ORBAT you mentioned from the Betrayal book mentions alternative Titles for Rank and Name of Units. so: lord Commander could be called, Chapter Master/Khan/Warsmith ect Battalion Commander could be, Lieutenant Commander/Commander/First Captain/shadow Captain/Marshal...ect Company Commander in turn could be Captain/Centurion/Prime/Wolf Lord...ect In the first HH books The Emperors Children mentions lord Commanders and captains and line Officers The sons of Horus dont seem to have any formation above Captains Commanding Companies. The same with the World Eaters after angron killed the Legion Commander. then made his way through the first 7 company Captains. Not untill the Latter books with: Ultra Marines Word Bearers Dark Angels Blood Angels are Chapters Mentioned with the likes of Chapter Masters Ralderon and Astilan. my point being that some Legions may have more rigid C2 structures in place than others. some may have Chapters some may not, some may or may not have Battalions. in the end thats why Guliman wrote the Codex astarties, becuse it confused the hell out of him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count the7 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 sorry Death Guard Disposition at the start of the Betrayal was 95,000 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count the7 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Repeated post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count the7 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Repeated post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count the7 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Repeated post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count the7 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Repeated post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 The Sons of Horus are stated as not having any officers above Captain becouse Horus likes to mix and match companies for the mission at hand I think Angron just thought they got in the way no idea as to the EC the Word Bearers have always had chapters in the HH books since its also a monastical term also kinda explains the DA's use of it to.. same with the BA from when SAnguinius meets horus and loken and the rest in the first few books iirc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3218904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
smoadia85 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 When the common trend was that Legion size was 10000 marines strictly and I mentioned that updated sources puts it at at least 100k marines and I was shot down with the combine might of Index Astartes and mob mentality. Now, no one mentions 10000 as Legion size anymore... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3219045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinvs Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 From BL's audio-story Raven's Flight we have number of the Raven Guard = 80000 legionaries, and the RG was one from smallest legions. The structure from the FW's Betrayal little bit confusem me. How were the Companies numbered and marked? From which Chapter in the Son of Horus legion was Loken (10th Company according first BL's books) and from which Chapter in the SoH were Captains of 13th (Sedire), 18th (Marr) etc. The Captain of 405th Companie of the Imperial Fists is more strange in the Legion Structure from the Betrayal. Had somebody from you fratters try to compare Legion Structure and numbers of Companies which we have now in BL's books? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3219280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 From BL's audio-story Raven's Flight we have number of the Raven Guard = 80000 legionaries, and the RG was one from smallest legions. The structure from the FW's Betrayal little bit confuse me. How were the Companies numbered and marked? From which Chapter in the Son of Horus legion was Loken (10th Company according first BL's books) and from which Chapter in the SoH were Captains of 13th (Sedire), 18th (Marr) etc. The Captain of 405th Company of the Imperial Fists is more strange in the Legion Structure from the Betrayal. Had somebody from you fratters try to compare Legion Structure and numbers of Companies which we have now in BL's books? Loken was from the 10th, Sedire the 13th ect.. the SoH didn't use anything larger than a Company in organization, As for the IF could be from the 5th Company 4th Battalion or 5th Company 4th Chapter (they could use the WWII German system (IIRC) of left to right highest part of organization to lowest or something the writer made up) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3219319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Two points to consider: 1. Every legion was different. 2. It's not real (sorry to break that to you) so there's no definitive answer. It has evolved with the authors. When the early HH novels came out the general consensus was that Legions were ~10,000. Then Collected Visions made them ~100,000 and suddenly the command structures were wholly inadequate. The Deathguard were a good example of this. When Garro was first introduced and we learned that the DG had only 7 companies it sort of made sense because we expected them to be a bit less than 10,000 strong which meant that Garro was approximately equivalent to a "modern" Chapter Master. Then the Legions were scaled up and suddenly Garro must have been responsible for a force equivalent to about ten chapters and yet he seems to be dealing with sergeants who must actually be closer to Chapter Masters in terms of the scope of their command responsibility - a task made almost impossible by the fact that there's no indication of any other intermediary grants. Similarly Fulgrim is confusing because they have loads of captains but some are Fulgrim's closest aides and others are just "line-officers". I believe there's also a line referring to a squad being order to draw close combat weapons and a hundred blades glitter in the sunlight. I think that the Chapter/Company model we're familiar with is really only reliable for Ultramarines. Even though the Word Bearers used Chapters their Chapters were not a standard organisational unit but rather a sort of affiliation for companies. Some Chapters that were favoured by Lorgar had many companies, some like The Serrated Sun had just three. I got the impression from The First Heretic that the Chapters were like a pre-Heresy version of the Word Bearers' post-Heresy division into cults where their size waxed and waned with their accomplishments. In a similar way there are lots of apparent anachronisms in the books. At the time of Isstvaan (I've given up trying to remember is it's now Isstvan or Istvaan) III Saul Tarvitz is unfamiliar with the Thunderhawk as it is new. In Age of Darkness during the Heresy the Ultramarines dislike the Thunderhawk which is a new, temporary, stop gap alternative for the Stormbird. Despite this "newness" The First Heretic contains Ultramarines using Thunderhawks forty-two years before the outbreak of the Heresy. You can either get hung up on these details or accept that just like real history there are lots of contradicting accounts and that given the scale of the Legions, the size of the galaxy and the duration of the Crusade many different structures and technologies were implemented separately in different times and places. I enjoy the character arcs and narrative and don't open up cans of worms I know can't be closed again! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3219359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinvs Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 2. It's not real (sorry to break that to you) so there's no definitive answer. It has evolved with the authors. I agree with you of corse, and I don't think about 30K or about 40K how about real history :cuss But I like made and find some kind of conventions and logical relations in the universe of plastic toy soldiers which I liked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3219746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Two points to consider:1. Every legion was different. 2. It's not real (sorry to break that to you) so there's no definitive answer. It has evolved with the authors. When the early HH novels came out the general consensus was that Legions were ~10,000. Then Collected Visions made them ~100,000 and suddenly the command structures were wholly inadequate. The Deathguard were a good example of this. When Garro was first introduced and we learned that the DG had only 7 companies it sort of made sense because we expected them to be a bit less than 10,000 strong which meant that Garro was approximately equivalent to a "modern" Chapter Master. Then the Legions were scaled up and suddenly Garro must have been responsible for a force equivalent to about ten chapters and yet he seems to be dealing with sergeants who must actually be closer to Chapter Masters in terms of the scope of their command responsibility - a task made almost impossible by the fact that there's no indication of any other intermediary grants. Similarly Fulgrim is confusing because they have loads of captains but some are Fulgrim's closest aides and others are just "line-officers". I believe there's also a line referring to a squad being order to draw close combat weapons and a hundred blades glitter in the sunlight. I think that the Chapter/Company model we're familiar with is really only reliable for Ultramarines. Even though the Word Bearers used Chapters their Chapters were not a standard organisational unit but rather a sort of affiliation for companies. Some Chapters that were favoured by Lorgar had many companies, some like The Serrated Sun had just three. I got the impression from The First Heretic that the Chapters were like a pre-Heresy version of the Word Bearers' post-Heresy division into cults where their size waxed and waned with their accomplishments. In a similar way there are lots of apparent anachronisms in the books. At the time of Isstvaan (I've given up trying to remember is it's now Isstvan or Istvaan) III Saul Tarvitz is unfamiliar with the Thunderhawk as it is new. In Age of Darkness during the Heresy the Ultramarines dislike the Thunderhawk which is a new, temporary, stop gap alternative for the Stormbird. Despite this "newness" The First Heretic contains Ultramarines using Thunderhawks forty-two years before the outbreak of the Heresy. You can either get hung up on these details or accept that just like real history there are lots of contradicting accounts and that given the scale of the Legions, the size of the galaxy and the duration of the Crusade many different structures and technologies were implemented separately in different times and places. I enjoy the character arcs and narrative and don't open up cans of worms I know can't be closed again! Definitely agree with the esteemed Inquisitor, here, especially the bold bit. Each Legion (as Betrayal states) started off pretty much the same but they changed the longer they existed, especially after when they found their gene-fathers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3219751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count the7 Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 Thanks guys as i pointed out in the first post, Authors start with an idea and as they progress with the thread the story and narritive develops beyond the original concepts. I like to test other peoples ideas as i love the fluff and want to build on the back ground and naritive for my own Army. A good understanding of where the Legion started and where it ends up can be reflected in the Unit Choices, Modleling and Paint work as well as the back ground of the Army you put on the Table top. (please check out my Death Guard in my Albums) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264186-legion-size-and-disposition/#findComment-3221946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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