Equipping Champions

[SevenPlagues]

So, given the new rules re: Champions, how are you equipping them? I feel like this rule mechanic translates rather poorly from Fantasy - in Fantasy, even the mid-level Chaos heroes absolutely wreck other heroes, and even some more powerful characters. Our 'squad leader' characters might have a tougher go of it, and are unlikely to survive even a single round against an enemy HQ.

 

So, how do you equip your Champions? Do you stick with the power fists for that AP2 in case you run in to a TDA'd opponent and hope to survive long enough to swing? Or do you go with a power axe for a slightly cheaper means to that same end? Or do you go with a power weapon? Or, what about a lightning claw? I've been thinking of the latter. A lightning claw is like a better power sword, for the same points cost, that allows re-rolls to wound. Granted it's AP3 - I don't plan to be engaging any Terminator squads in assault if I can help it!

 

Finally, does this make a difference to you what sort of unit the Champion is leading? CSM with MoN? Plague Marines? Bikers? Terminators? What are your thoughts?

[Circus Nurgling]

Yeah, you bring up a good counter to the argument 'but what if AP2?'. Good idea to stay away from those if you can help it... still, I've been in fights with walkers where I was locked in combat and could do absolutely nothing but die, so some strength is needed, at least close by.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

It's hard to sacrifice initiative for a power axe or fist, but usually in a squad that is going to contain an HQ, you can get away with it. Only one challenge can be going on per combat, so you can afford to risk giving the champion a power fist or axe while your Chaos Lord introduces every squad leader in the history of ever to his axe of face violation so he can attain spawnhood. Units which do not contain characters can often benefit from the surprisingly underused power maul. You can at least beat down an enemy MC or HQ, the next squad to charge can benefit from the concussive rule.

 

I'm beginning to feel like being the Aspiring Champion is punishment after lobotomization has failed to curb the foolish glory merchant's behavior.

[Zeller]

I bring PF only. I fight a lot of wraithguard and I want better odds than 5+ when fighting monstrous creatures. The axe won't do.

[Jay Taint]

I think the problem is that we have to accept challenges. If we didn't have to, I'd take an high-strength, AP2 weapon for the cases you've mentioned, TDA or walkers, and make sure the Champion piles in late enough to have a go at I1. But since we do have to, I've seen many Champions die too early. I'm going with power swords thus. It's a relatively cheap all-round choice and I get to keep the extra attack for the bolt pistol -- which you loose with a single Lightning Claw. I'm not sure if that's a particularly smart thing to do. After all, Plague Champion go later than most MEQs anyway. But it works for me so far.

 

Cheers, JT

 

EDIT: Regarding your last question, actually: Yeah, from what I was trying to say it does make a difference who's leading the squad: I'd never, ever sacrifice I4 for any extra punch in CC. (I'd to it on a specialized Terminator squad or something, but never on my bread and butter troops.) With Plague Marines and I3, however, my above argument is perhaps weak, and a Fist or Axe could be a sensible choice.

[Circus Nurgling]

Exactly. If we're going last anyway, go for axe or fist. Axe for the extra attack + ap2, or fist if you really need to pop something.

[Jay Taint]

Alright. So you'd take Power Mauls against Orks and IG?

 

Cheers, JT

[Circus Nurgling]

Alright. So you'd take Power Mauls against Orks and IG?

 

Cheers, JT

 

That'd be why I take a mix ;). I don't tailor my lists to anything, so one of my squads has a power sword. Power maul has it's uses, too, especially for concussive against HQs or MCs if you're charging with a backup unit.

[RolandTHTG]

I'm actually in favor of the solo Lightning claw. you lose 1 attack vs the sword at the same price, but the reroll to wound more than makes up for it.

If we want our champs to survive, the claw allows us to strike before the fists or axes (remember, we go later, not last :) ) which are the true threats to our champs. A SM powersword sarge has only a 1/3 chance of killing us, but it goes over 50% chance with the axe or fist. so elininating the late hitters should be a priority.

In exchange we get a .75% chance of killing the opposing sgt, even if they charged us. (If we charge its almost guaranteed, even without VotLW)

[Urauloth]

I get to keep the extra attack for the bolt pistol -- which you loose with a single Lightning Claw.

 

Ha, I quoted this to tell you to check out the mathammer on that one (it surprised me when i first saw it) but I see TJWyrm has beaten me to it.

 

But yeah, against space marines, shred beats the second attack from the pistol/sword combo. Since we have all those gorgeous new lightning claws from the raptor kit kicking around, I think there's going to be quite a few people sticking those on their champions.

 

What I need to go away and think about is how essential having that AP2 option really is. If your CSM squad is in combat with terminators it's probably going to be pretty disastrous for them whatever happens, and your champion getting to bang heads together with their sergeant in such a way that they mutually annihilate isn't going to help the squad much.

[Chaeron]

Single LC does seem to be the mathhammer choice for this Codex - I'd still rather run with a Fist I think!

[Verbal Underbelly]

What do folks think of keeping your plague marine champ's plague knife? Actually isn't it possible to keep the plague knife and swap out the bolt pistol? So you could have a plague knife and a power weapon/lightning claw. Crickey you could then swap out his bolter for a combi flamer so you shoot on the charge (albeit only once).

 

Man I love this codex - I really do. If you want it you can have it. I really like the fact it's no longer necessary to have identical plague champs...

[Jay Taint]

But yeah, against space marines, shred beats the second attack from the pistol/sword combo.

Well ... it's really surprising. I wouldn't have expected that, but you're right. I'll consider single Lightning Claws. Thanks.

 

What do folks think of keeping your plague marine champ's plague knife? Actually isn't it possible to keep the plague knife and swap out the bolt pistol? So you could have a plague knife and a power weapon/lightning claw. Crickey you could then swap out his bolter for a combi flamer so you shoot on the charge (albeit only once).

Ah, can I really do it? I mean, swapping the Bolt Pistol for a second CCW? How would that work out if I could? Do I get to choose which one I'm fighting with in a given combat phase?

 

Cheers, JT

[Minsc]

Since this is in the Legio Morbidus part of the forum, are we speaking about Plague Champions only, or about all champions in general?

 

On the subject of Plague Champions, I don't give him anything at all. He comes with a Plague Knife by default, and doesn't get a discount for buying a PW/PF anyway.

He's too slow for Power Swords to be of any use, and I don't use fists anymore. (see below.)

 

On all other champions however, I've started to use Power Swords (especially on champions with MoS), or simply nothing at all. I never bother with Powerfists anymore, I'd rather buy Meltabombs.

Powerfists lost their sheen in this edition for three reasons:

1) Meta has changed, far less vehicles means the need for a fist against that AV10 rear is smaller.

2) It's almost impossible to single out IC's in combat now, outside of challenges. Any IC you want to single out will probably accept your challenge or issue one himself, and beat your powerfistwielding champion to a bloody pulp, before he gets to attack anyway.

3) Most of the more common MC's are Characters now - they will challenge and eat your fist-champ before you can say "what the f*ck!?".

 

Then add the whole crappy "must issue/accept challenges"-rule and that's the final nail in the coffin for Powerfists on our champs imo.

It's funny how the boon-table was supposed to make us more willing to kit out our champions to win challenges, while the rule at the same time means that gearing our champions for combat is a waste of points.

Great thinking there Kelly.

[John_f]

If init > 3 LC

Else axe or fist

[RolandTHTG]

If init > 3 LC

Else axe or fist

If you notice my post above, as long as you're only expecting to fight regular sgts, I feel a Lightning Claw is better than a axe. While the Fist has some considerations beyond "ignores armor" For regular powerweapon-type attacks, I feel the Lightning Claw is superior.

[John_f]

If init > 3 LC

Else axe or fist

If you notice my post above, as long as you're only expecting to fight regular sgts, I feel a Lightning Claw is better than a axe. While the Fist has some considerations beyond "ignores armor" For regular powerweapon-type attacks, I feel the Lightning Claw is superior.

 

Yeah, well...Chances are "regular sgts" also have power weapons but striking at init 4. This means you are dead anyway if going at init 3, and might aswell take the axe or go naked.

[compgeek1602]

Yeah, I have to agree with John_f on this one. You're already I3, so what's the point? You'll slaughter a guardsman sgt, no matter what he tries to do to you, and you go after a MEQ sgt anyways, so I run my champ with a power axe, plague knife and combi-melta. Mostly because the backpack came modeled that way ;) ! This way, I can choose to re-roll to wound with three attacks if it's absolutely necessary, or I can hit with 3 S5 AP2 attacks, which is awesome. I rely on kraks to kill walkers and vehicles. Against walkers the odds are long, I know, but I NEVER build a list without VotLW on my important units, so they at least get to re-roll to hit during the first round, meaning I usually get 3, maybe 4 hits if I'm lucky. I can usually get a glance or two, which is usually enough when combined with overwatch from 3 meltas. However, I try very hard to keep my plagues away from such combats, instead feeding walkers my maulerfiend, which tends to eat them for breakfast!

[Seahawk]

Powerfists all the way! Nothing else is worthwhile.

[compgeek1602]

@Seahawk- I have to disagree, sir. The extra expense and lack of additional attack are a complete turn-off for me now. I used to agree with you wholeheartedly, but now with the changes 6th has made to vehicles, kraks will annihilate anything but a LR, which a PF won't hurt anyways; well, not effectively at any rate! If you're worried about MC's, don't be. A squad of plagues will rip through an MC like he's standing still. They all wound him on a 4+, meaning you're going to kill him through sheer attrition WAY before a PF would. I attacked a Wraithlord with my squad of 13 plagues and utterly crushed it in one round of combat, for the loss of one plague. Now that's making your points back! That's why I take a PA and plague knife on my champ. he can then choose to always wound on a 4+ vs nasty stuff that will most likely kill him anyways, lol. PF's just don't stand out anymore with the availability of PA's.

[Seahawk]

Walkers make kraks, plague knives, and power axes utterly worthless, and I face lots of walkers in my games. Blood Angels and Space Wolves, for instance. Now, I could get behind meltabombs, but I did a comparison in the previous thread about plague champions (why'd we make a 2nd thread anyway?) and decided the fist is better for my purposes.

[compgeek1602]

My friend plays BA and also loves walkers, and uses them quite frequently. His lists typically have three or more dreads in them, and I still don't use powerfists. Why? Think about this: Furioso charges plagues. Dread goes first and gets 4 attacks at WS6, hitting with 3 or so and killing all three, usually, because he's ID at S10, so they get no saves whatsoever.Champ with PF then gets 2 attacks. He hits with 1, maybe glances, maybe not. Most likely not, in my experience. waste of points. I simply do NOT, under any circumstances, allow my plagues to get anywhere near a walker, unless it has a T value, in which case I gleefully attack it with abandon, lol. I shoot walkers with my havocs and forgefiends. I assault them with my helbrutes. I mire them down in a morass of cultists and laugh while they cut down three a turn, ensuring me that such walkers are forever locked in hopeless combat. PF's are a waste in 6th. Unless you're wolves. Cause those bastards get them stupid cheap.

[Seahawk]

Agree to disagree then. My BA player delivers them at my doorstep before I can shoot them and then gets locked into combat with my dudes; I have no choice or chance, so I might as well give as good as I can, making power fists 100% worth it. Plus it's fun to punk sergeants after passing FNP. :)

[compgeek1602]

haha, very well, sir! I can live with that. I agree that slapping down sergeants is definitely fun, as then you can get a boon, such as +1 attack..... or wound..... or toughness..... or strength..... i love that table.

[Noctus Cornix]

For my basic Champion loadout, I give the squad Mark of Slaanesh. The Champion is then equipped with a single Lightning Claw, Melta Bombs and gift of mutation for fun. (if I don't have the points I take off mutation)

 

For Plague Marines, i give the champion a power fist. They're already striking at initiative 3 so they're probably going to strike after almost everything anyway.

 

Khorne Berzerkers, i haven't decided on yet. I'm debating between a Power Axe or a Power fist.