Agerjag Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 It is not an example it states the two ways that a character can join a unit before the game starts. It does state in transports that he can begin the game in one and such so there is really no conflicts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiskrtapps Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 Being able to drive on a Land Raider with friends right into your opponents deployment zone.. a'int too shabby in my books. Huron can hang in the back and high five his way up the field. Maybe some chaos bikes to complement (turbo boost up to join the terminators thrust). A 20 man BP/CCW Power Armored unit wouldn't be too bad, if only they had fearless~ bikers led by a sorcerer on slaneesh steed is the complement i'll do.. landraider outflanking was only a part of the list :-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--eFTy--> Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 It is not an example it states the two ways that a character can join a unit before the game starts. It does state in transports that he can begin the game in one and such so there is really no conflicts. Yes but that statement that he can do so is in direct contradiction with the rule governing how characters can join units before the game starts. A character has to be deployed in coherency with the unit, and if the unit is in a transport when deployed, that is not possible (since they're not on the table). I really hope they FAQ this... Otherwise what's the point of "if a model in a unit has the rule..." since there's no other way to get a unit with infiltrate on only -some- models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 A 20 man BP/CCW Power Armored unit wouldn't be too bad, if only they had fearless~ You can't. Alas, the LR is not a dedicated transpor to anyone, but termies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D00M Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Speaking of outflanking landraiders.... Has anyone given the Land Raider Proteus a try?: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-4000...ER-PROTEUS.html Forge World is usually cool in my gaming group and id love to convert one up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ifrit446 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 A 20 man BP/CCW Power Armored unit wouldn't be too bad, if only they had fearless~ You can't. Alas, the LR is not a dedicated transpor to anyone, but termies. I think he meant that a 20 man unit would be good no matter what...not just with the landraider ;) Edit: Continuing post But yeah, it sorta sucks if that "ultimate sneaky guy that teaches us all how to be sneaky like him" cant run with the squads that he just helped out...Kind of bull :cuss if you ask me. Otherwise what the hell's the point??? But its another one to be clarified in the books if it is indeed true that characters can't come with. I've been running it as that way and no one has had ANY issues with it yet :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Otherwise what the hell's the point??? d3 units infiltrating in an army that has no infiltration for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--eFTy--> Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Think he meant what's the point of "if at least one model in the unit has Infiltrate..." if characters can only join after deploying the unit. I also stand by my assessment that the same rule governing IC deployment prevents them from joining embarked squads (so Abaddon can't go in a raider with his terminator retinue). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve shields Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Think he meant what's the point of "if at least one model in the unit has Infiltrate..." if characters can only join after deploying the unit. I also stand by my assessment that the same rule governing IC deployment prevents them from joining embarked squads (so Abaddon can't go in a raider with his terminator retinue). i still the the two situations it shows are an example, however even if we were to assume that was the case, im pretty sure no TO would ever make you stick to that. It's clearly not RAI and its iffy its even RAW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--eFTy--> Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Frankly that's my hope as well. I think it makes sense to be able to attach a character to a unit before deploying them, to thus take advantage of either infiltration from the character OR the squad's dedicated transport (or both, actually). I really hope they FAQ this, until then it's going to be a pain to discuss this with opponents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Think he meant what's the point of "if at least one model in the unit has Infiltrate..." if characters can only join after deploying the unit. I also stand by my assessment that the same rule governing IC deployment prevents them from joining embarked squads (so Abaddon can't go in a raider with his terminator retinue). i still the the two situations it shows are an example, however even if we were to assume that was the case, im pretty sure no TO would ever make you stick to that. It's clearly not RAI and its iffy its even RAW Yupp, I am going to ignore this. Apart from tournaments you shouldn`t ever play people that use microscopes to unravel a perfectly logical deployment option. When RAI is so clear as this, you can, and IMO should, just give your opponent "the finger" (not litterally speaking) and leave if he/she makes actuall fuss about this. Such ridiculous humans are not worth playing with anyway. Frankly that's my hope as well. I think it makes sense to be able to attach a character to a unit before deploying them, to thus take advantage of either infiltration from the character OR the squad's dedicated transport. I really hope they FAQ this, until then it's going to be a pain to discuss this with opponents... But yeah, they should FAQ it, since tournaments might be a hassle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I remember people were having this same argument over Shrike and his "join a unit, they all infiltrate" rules years ago, and it required an FAQ saying that yes, you can to get the rules lawyers to shut up about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 has anyone emailed the gw faq department about this? might get a decent ruling :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve shields Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 got their email? their site is blocked on the boat. but i would send them an email, hopefully if enough people send it in then we can get a somewhat quick answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--eFTy--> Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I have about as much faith in sending emails to 'em as I do in religion. Nevertheless: Gamefaqs@gwplc.com (taken from the Shrine of Knowledge on their website). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Such ridiculous humans are not worth playing with anyway. and yet GW after getting feed back about their own rules in the chaos dex decided that they own rules were writen wrong[DP not having marks , zombis , termi weapons] and at the same time stuff that was in the same cathegory[magnus scroll doesnt work for HQs that arent already casters for example] was not fixed. you can never say with GW that because something looks stupid [as in rules] should not be played that way because RAI is different . they changed paly/nob champions twice. it took them 2 years to "notice" that nid auras [and all auras till 5th ed never targeted] dont work , becasue crudd droped the ball when writing doom . etc etc. rules wise it is rather clear. deploying is a non no . units are deployed separate from HQs . so when a unit infiltrates huron has to deploy in an illegal way to get the rule. HQs [unless GW says they cant like the stupid prime ruling for nids] can join units in reservs , unless there are rules that stop them from it [twc have such rules for example] . So huron can join and because he is now in a unit with the infiltration rule , he also gains it and there for when the unit comes out of reservs the whole thing can outflank . outflank is not a different type of reservs , it is a different type of deployment from reservs . Which means it is check way after huron has joined the unit etc. I dont know about RAI , but RAW wise it is clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--eFTy--> Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Except what you just said is illegal, as characters without infiltrate cannot join units that have Infiltrate. We're talking about it working the other way around - characters with infiltrate joining units without, so that the whole unit can infiltrate (as the rule only requires one model in the unit having the rule). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agerjag Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 @eFTY How could if be an example, read it again, it says "An Independant Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by" and then lists the options, thats not here is a few ways, those are the ONLY options. Its very clear. @topic Also as the Jeske basically summed up, we have no idea what RAI is when it comes to GW, youd think you could follow common sense...but alas we cannot. Also you can outflank with the IC by choosing him as infiltrator and joining him to terminators. Specifies that in Dedicated transports, p 78(which can only apply to reserve as thats when he can join the unit). Just to clear up any doubt on that. Still outa luck infiltrating all of them. Though why you wouldn't just do it with 5 termies is beyond me :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--eFTy--> Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 GW is known for screwing up on writing rules, and like I already said 3 times in this thread - their own rules prevent you from embarking a character with a unit in the unit's dedicated transport during deployment, which they themselves say you can, in the general rules for deployment. It is a direct contradiction of rules - not the first, probably not the last. As for why I'd like to do that - personally, I'd like to give Huron Infiltrate and join him with a blob of 30 cultists to infiltrate both, while if I roll a 2, a unit of terminators infiltrates on the other flank with a sorcerer (who gets said rule). For a roll of a 3, I have a csm plasma squad eager to get close too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agerjag Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 GW is known for screwing up on writing rules, and like I already said 3 times in this thread - their own rules prevent you from embarking a character with a unit in the unit's dedicated transport during deployment, which they themselves say you can, in the general rules for deployment. It is a direct contradiction of rules - not the first, probably not the last. As for why I'd like to do that - personally, I'd like to give Huron Infiltrate and join him with a blob of 30 cultists to infiltrate both, while if I roll a 2, a unit of terminators infiltrates on the other flank with a sorcerer (who gets said rule). For a roll of a 3, I have a csm plasma squad eager to get close too. p78 dedicated transports says, they can be deployed with the squad that took them with any characters that join them. This wont help the infiltrate problem as the character is still at a different deployment step but you certainly can take abadon and friends in their dedicated landraider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--eFTy--> Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Except the rules for Independent Characters have those two specific situations on how ICs can be deployed, and neither of them allow ICs to join a unit before said unit is placed in the transport. Thus, even though the pg 87 rules say the unit and the ICs that join them can go in the transport, IC rules never allow them to actually join the unit, because Abaddon cannot be deployed in coherency with a unit that is not on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 In reservs unless there are special rules preventing it , any HQ can join any unit .there is no cohorency when your in reservs because your not on the table . by the time the unit does deploy [teleports in , goes on foot from table edge, disembarks from a transport etc] he is well able to be within 2" , ergo there is no rules problem . Now this of course all would be nice and good , if GW didnt give us the prima FAQ which messes everything up . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agerjag Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 They specified the two ways characters can be placed normally. Dedicated transports override the normal rules for many things and have limitations as well. Their rules supersede the normal ones. The only problem as I stated before was that infiltrators place at a different step and he would not be a part of the unit when they deployed and they cannot wait for infiltrators until he has joined. This will hopefully be FAQ'd sometime in the future but thats how it is for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--eFTy--> Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 jeske - you're off the mark, again. I'm talking about a character joining a unit in a transport during deployment and starting on the table, turn 1. agerjag - the rules for deploying dedicated transports state that a unit along with any ALREADY attached ICs can deploy inside it. But attaching ICs prior to deploying the unit, IN THE TRANSPORT, is illegal, according to IC deployment rules. The transport rules imply the possibility, they don't however offer any permission for ICs to deploy differently compared to those two specific situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 You make the decision to attach an IC to a unit during deployment. Because the person who's turn (and deployment is done in turns) decides what order simultaneous events happen in, you can choose to attach ICs to units before putting anything on the table, so when it's time to deploy the dedicated transport, the IC is already attached to the unit and can therefore deploy inside it. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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