Power Weapons

[bearden441]

Hi All - so in 6th, how exactly are these used? I know there are multiple that can be chosen, however, is it directly by the physical model, or can any character/unit be modeled with any of them? If the unit entry states power weapon can i choose to have some with swords, others with axes, etc?

 

Please let me know as I am so confused about this.

 

Thanks!

[Rider-75]

Grey knights don't have power weapons, but Nemesis Force Weapons.

 

As per the errata (Codex GK errata v1.1) these are Unusual Force Weapons (rulebook p60) giving them AP3 plus their special rules (codex GK, p54). Note the Hammer has been errata'd to: S:x2, AP:2, melee, concussive, unwieldy, daemon bane, specialist weapon (GK errata v1.1)

 

The other units with in the army that have access to power weapons may freely be armed with which ever particular weapons you want in an individu basis. Eg: the death cult assassin may each choose whatever combo you want, but remember to gain the +1 attack they would need to be a pair of the same weapon. The weapons chosen will have the rules for those weapons as per the rulebook, p61

 

Hope that helps :lol:

[jeffersonian000]

GK Techmarines, Death Cult Assassins, and Crusaders come with power weapons, and Inquisitors as well as warrior Acolytes may upgrade to power weapons, so th OP's question has merit. To answer, the shape of the weapon determines its stats. AI GK Techmarine could be armed with a power axe, power maul, power lance, or power sword, depending on the model. So could Crusaders, DCAs, Inquisitors, and Acolytes. However, not all shapes are good matches for certain units. Having your DCAs go at initiative step 1 because you though power axes looked cute on them would lead to your DCAs geting slaughtered before they can swing, so chosing wisely is the key.

 

As a general rule of thumb, put slohammers and axes on units with good saves, lances on units with Hit and Run or good charge bonuses, and swords on everyone else. Same is true for force weapons (although there are no "force lances", which would be sweet).

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

the death cult assassin may each choose whatever combo you want, but remember to gain the +1 attack they would need to be a pair of the same weapon.

 

This is incorrect. You can arm you DCA with a Power Axe and a Power Sword and still get the +1A for two 'specialist' CCW.

[jeffersonian000]

This is incorrect. You can arm you DCA with a Power Axe and a Power Sword and still get the +1A for two 'specialist' CCW.

 

That is incorrect. Neither a power axe nor a power sword are specialist weapons, they are simple "power weapons" (pg 61, BRB). DCA always receive a +1A due to being armed with two CC weapons. And yes, if you arm them with one each, you can choose which one's special rules you can use (ie, choosing wisely). The only time wielding two CC weapons does not give a +1A is when wielding Nemesis Falchions, because for some odd reason their +1A special rule negates the normal +1A for duel wielding CC weapons (but that's another dead thread).

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

So I was correct, and they do indeed get the +1A. :D

 

The only time wielding two CC weapons does not give a +1A is when wielding Nemesis Falchions, because for some odd reason their +1A special rule negates the normal +1A for duel wielding CC weapons (but that's another dead thread).

 

It's becuase technically, the NFF are a single weapon.

 

Crappy ruling on GW's part, but them's the breaks.

[Rider-75]

the death cult assassin may each choose whatever combo you want, but remember to gain the +1 attack they would need to be a pair of the same weapon.

 

This is incorrect. You can arm you DCA with a Power Axe and a Power Sword and still get the +1A for two 'specialist' CCW.

 

Cool. Was my misinterpretation of specialist weapon. Good to know then that any combo o two specialist weapons means +1A, if that's the way it's meant to be read.

[dswanick]

the death cult assassin may each choose whatever combo you want, but remember to gain the +1 attack they would need to be a pair of the same weapon.

 

This is incorrect. You can arm you DCA with a Power Axe and a Power Sword and still get the +1A for two 'specialist' CCW.

 

Cool. Was my misinterpretation of specialist weapon. Good to know then that any combo o two specialist weapons means +1A, if that's the way it's meant to be read.

It's probably not the way it's meant to be read, but it is the way it's written - currently.

[Brother Maikel]

Power Weapons are not "Specialist Weapons"

They are just normal close combat weapons, no different from bolt pistols or chainswords, aside from their AP value.

 

Specialist Weapons include Power Fists, Lightning Claws, and Thunder Hammers, as well as whatever else has the "Specialist" USR.

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye, I was a tad inaccurate above.

 

You get the +1A for having two Power Weapons, regardless of type. You also get +1A for having two specialist weapons, again regardless of type.

[bearden441]

awesome thanks, so basically if they DCA's are armed with a power sword and power axe they can choose which one they use each round without the loss of +1 attack..... bad ass! makes them so versatile

[Reclusiarch Darius]

awesome thanks, so basically if they DCA's are armed with a power sword and power axe they can choose which one they use each round without the loss of +1 attack..... bad ass! makes them so versatile

 

Yep, thats pretty much the most efficient way to run them. Sword the faces off stuff not in 2+ armour, switch to power axe when you wanna take down the Terminator unit with you. In either case, a Tech-Marine attached for 'Hammerhand' and rad grenades helps so much. He also brings servo-arms and meltabombs for dismantling vehicles and MC's, as well as a warding stave to tie up enemy characters in challenges.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I've pointed out in other threads that giving your DCA's power mauls and a hammerhand gives you S7 melee attacks, which even against a Ironclad means you're putting out enough glancing wounds to hull point it to death in combat. The sheer number of attacks from the DCA's means you get multiple hits and damage results.

 

I won't try and say AP2 is worthless, but don't overlook the humble maul either. IMO, if you are going to go with multiple weapons on your DCAs and do that much modelling pain, half sword/axe and half sword/maul could be very very useful. Something to think about.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I've pointed out in other threads that giving your DCA's power mauls and a hammerhand gives you S7 melee attacks, which even against a Ironclad means you're putting out enough glancing wounds to hull point it to death in combat. The sheer number of attacks from the DCA's means you get multiple hits and damage results.

 

Except you don't bring Death-Cult to fight walkers. They're infantry blenders, not anti-armour. Leave the Dreadnought breaking to the attached Tech-Marine (he's very well-equipped to deal with it). AP4 is not good enough. Death-Cult (even with half-Crusaders for meatshields) are a glass cannon melee unit. You have to hit overwhelmingly hard, and choose a target that you'll murder handily.

 

Walkers are slow in any case, so if you have a Raven, you can choose when and where to strike and just avoid them. If they fly over a Librarian Dread (damn Bangles!), the Tech-Marine and Crusaders soak the wounds onto their superior invul saves, then the Tech-Marine uses meltabombs and servo-arm attacks to get rid of it.

 

I won't try and say AP2 is worthless, but don't overlook the humble maul either. IMO, if you are going to go with multiple weapons on your DCAs and do that much modelling pain, half sword/axe and half sword/maul could be very very useful. Something to think about.

 

You have to go half-Crusader anyway, otherwise they are too easily taken out (3++ meatshields are really handy, especially if you fail a charge roll). Ultimately, all the cool effects of the other power weapon variants don't compare to raw death output of sword+axe. And Crusaders go at S3/I3, so they definitely want the axe.

[ValourousHeart]

I think your last point is the best reason to NOT have all you DCA armed with axes.

In a squad of 10 you are going to have 4-5 crusaders with axe & ss.

So your 5-6 DCA need to make the most of their high I because you have axes already.

3-4 armed with mace / sword and 2-3 armed with axe / sword will make a well rounded unit that can handle anything.

 

 

... Not just the 3 lists currently found at all those boring tournaments.

[BrotherWasted]

No. Just, no. There is NO reason to ever take Power Mauls on Death Cult Assassins. Any squad that does so hampers their close combat effectiveness, instead of improving it.

 

Your DCA need to be armed all with Axes in order to take down Terminators/Paladins/2+ save squads as fast as possible. A Power Maul may be strength 7, but an Axe on a DCA is Strength 5, before Hammerhand or Might of Titan. The benefit you get from wounding on 2s does not outweigh the benefit of wounding on 3s and ignoring a 2+ armor save.

 

If you are sending your Henchmen into a TEQ squad, you don't need maximum strength, you need as much AP2 as possible. The idea is to make the enemy use the worst save they have. If you take Power Mauls, the termies get to use their 2+ armor save. If you take Axes, they have to use their 3++ Storm Shields, or the 5++ from their Termie Armor (Depending on Codex).

 

By equipping all of your models with Axes, this means you have (based on 4 Crusaders, 6DCA) a total of 32 Axe attacks on the charge. Giving half your DCA Power Mauls reduces this to 20.

 

Anything a Power Maul could kill, a Sword will do with almost the same efficiency.

 

Remember: A DCA axe is Strength 5. A Crusader's Axe is strength 4. Big difference.

[jeffersonian000]

Brotherwasted, I think you are missing the point. DCA have 2 power weapons, which can be of any shape. If they are armed with an axe and a maul, you can choose which weapon rule to use when they attack. If you need AP2, you use the AP2 weapons. If you need S7, you swing the S7 weapons. The number of attacks don't change, just the type of attack.

 

SJ

[BrotherWasted]

While you can certainly go Axe/Maul, Inquisitor Nicole was proposing a half Sword/Axe, half Sword/Maul load-out, which is what my criticism was targeted against.

 

In all three cases, though, the Maul does not help you take out MEQ or TEQ as much as the Sword will. A Maul is functionally useless against nearly half of the availble Codices (and therefore against the majority of armies), since Mauls allow MEQ to take Armor saves.

 

DCA have the WS, S, I and A of a Halberd-Paladin. They already have all the attacks in the world that they need - so your weapon choices should be focused on increasing the quality of the wounds caused by those hits. Mauls and Lances do not kill the toughest units. Swords and Axes do.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Mauls and Lances do not kill the toughest units. Swords and Axes do.

 

This a million times. The fancy effects of the other variants don't matter a jot. DCA are all about raw damage output, they're a glass hammer. You are bringing them to wipe out a unit when they charge. Concussion and a Strength bonus that only applies on the charge don't matter. AP3 or AP2 with +1 Strength every round do matter.

 

Swords murder MeQ's before they can swing, axes delete Terminators even as they take you down with powerfists. Anything else is a waste of time. It might seem boring, but GW doesn't understand their own game rules sometimes. AP4 just doesn't matter in melee (look at the fiasco of Beserkers having to PAY POINTS to upgrade to AP4 chainaxes, whilst being more expensive than MoK Marines, who do the same job but with bolters). Mauls were written because 'super special cool rules', same with lance. No one is using them, because they are functionally worse than any other alternative (sword, lightning claw, axe, powerfist, chainfist, in that order).

[Brother Maikel]

Mauls and Lances do not kill the toughest units. Swords and Axes do.

 

This a million times. The fancy effects of the other variants don't matter a jot. DCA are all about raw damage output, they're a glass hammer. You are bringing them to wipe out a unit when they charge. Concussion and a Strength bonus that only applies on the charge don't matter. AP3 or AP2 with +1 Strength every round do matter.

 

Swords murder MeQ's before they can swing, axes delete Terminators even as they take you down with powerfists. Anything else is a waste of time. It might seem boring, but GW doesn't understand their own game rules sometimes. AP4 just doesn't matter in melee (look at the fiasco of Beserkers having to PAY POINTS to upgrade to AP4 chainaxes, whilst being more expensive than MoK Marines, who do the same job but with bolters). Mauls were written because 'super special cool rules', same with lance. No one is using them, because they are functionally worse than any other alternative (sword, lightning claw, axe, powerfist, chainfist, in that order).

 

This entirely depends on your metagame and the role you're bringing your DCA for. If you're playing against a randomly chosen opponent in a 90% Power Armoured area then yeah, Swords and Axes all the way. But if your likely opponents are 'Nids, or Orks, or Eldar, or Daemons, or Necrons, then the +2 S from a Maul can really matter, and AP4 vs 3 might not. +2 Str means they can wound T6/7 reliably, wound T8 on the charge, glance AV13 Walkers on the charge (AV14 with Hammerhand), and glance/pen AV12. (Solely relying on your Techmarine to deal with walkers is a terrible idea: 1 Krak grenade or Meltabomb + 1 S8 AP1 attack at I1 won't reliably deal with AV12, much less AV13. Even if you give him a Daemonhammer, that's still only 4 attacks on the charge, hitting on 4's)

 

If you are sending your Henchmen into a TEQ squad, you don't need maximum strength, you need as much AP2 as possible. The idea is to make the enemy use the worst save they have. If you take Power Mauls, the termies get to use their 2+ armor save. If you take Axes, they have to use their 3++ Storm Shields, or the 5++ from their Termie Armor (Depending on Codex).

 

Against Storm Shields, on the charge:

For each axe attack: 2+ to wound, 3++ to save: .83 * .33 = .28 unsaved wounds

For each maul attack: 2+ to wound, 2+ to save: .83 * .167 = .14 unsaved wounds

 

charged, or subsequent turns:

For each axe attack: 3+ to wound, 3++ to save: .67 * .33 = .22 unsaved wounds

For each maul attack: 2+ to wound, 2+ to save: .83 * .167 = .14 unsaved wounds

 

So you're only losing about 1/2 of your offensive power on the charge, and 1/3 of it on subsequent turns in order to strike first.

The only time that loss matters is when you're short just enough wounds to send it into another one of your turns. In fact, it might even be good to have slightly less offensive power vs TEQ, if only so that you don't wipe them in one turn, leaving you stranded in the open ready to get shot up.

 

Against Tactical Termies (or GK termies sans NFS) the equation tips a bit more in favour of axes, but its still not completely worthless: mauls are still far better than swords and can avoid casualties by striking well before the axes do.

 

In fact, thinking about it further, an Axe+Maul build may be better than an Axe+Sword build for the MEQ case. Why bring a sword? Your average MEQ unit will produce 11 or so attacks when charged, hitting on 4's (~5 hits), wounding on 3's (~3 wounds), and getting saved on Crusader Storm Shields, aka 3's (~1 unsaved wound, on a crusader). You can then strike with Axes, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, and completely unsaveable. Alternately, go in swinging with mauls (wounding on 2's), produce a bucketful of wounds, and force tons of 3+ saves: chances are a bunch will fall, but enough survive to keep you in combat for your opponent's turn. The reduced squad then gets two swings before your axes mulch the rest, and you can charge on your next turn. With sword+axe you're far more likely to mulch the opposing unit in your turn, leaving the DCA completely exposed to enemy shooting.

 

 

I do agree on Lances though: they're almost completely worthless. They should give +1 I on the charge instead of +1 S. At least that way they'd have a unique, flavorful, potentially useful benefit instead of being barely better than swords on the charge (and worse in round 2+).

[BrotherWasted]

This entirely depends on your metagame and the role you're bringing your DCA for. If you're playing against a randomly chosen opponent in a 90% Power Armoured area then yeah, Swords and Axes all the way. But if your likely opponents are 'Nids, or Orks, or Eldar, or Daemons, or Necrons, then the +2 S from a Maul can really matter, and AP4 vs 3 might not.

 

Metagame nothing. Mauls cannot threaten Necron or Nid models with 3+ saves. The Necron Codex is LITTERED with 3+ saves, if I recall. It is a statistical inevitiability that in a tournament setting, or at most LGSs, you will enounter Marines, Necrons or Sisters of some kind.

 

+2 Str means they can wound T6/7 reliably, wound T8 on the charge,

 

Why the hell are you doing sending your DCA after a Toughness 6 model in the first place? That model likely has more than one wound and/or is a Daemon/Psyker. Send the damn Grey Knights after them.

 

glance AV13 Walkers on the charge (AV14 with Hammerhand), and glance/pen AV12.

 

Why are you sending your DCA against a target they were clearly not designed to fight against? Literally almost every other unit in the C:GK book is better at fighting vehicles than Death Cult Assassins.

 

(Solely relying on your Techmarine to deal with walkers is a terrible idea: 1 Krak grenade or Meltabomb + 1 S8 AP1 attack at I1 won't reliably deal with AV12, much less AV13.

 

Where did techmarines come into the discussion? There's a reason our Codex is littered with Psycannons. It's so DCA can focus on killing infantry, as they are designed to do.

 

Even if you give him a Daemonhammer, that's still only 4 attacks on the charge, hitting on 4's)

 

Which is the same as a Wolf Guard Sergeant swinging at something with a Power Axe. I don't see the problem there.

 

If you are sending your Henchmen into a TEQ squad, you don't need maximum strength, you need as much AP2 as possible. The idea is to make the enemy use the worst save they have. If you take Power Mauls, the termies get to use their 2+ armor save. If you take Axes, they have to use their 3++ Storm Shields, or the 5++ from their Termie Armor (Depending on Codex).

 

stuff about axes and mauls vs terminator armor

 

No. You want to kill those Marines so they don't deliberately fall back and shoot you to death. Killing them on the charge removes one more unit on the table that can shoot your Assassins down.

 

Axes are superior to Mauls, Swords or lances against Terminator Armor and should be taken on EVERY squad of DCA, no exceptions.

 

I do agree on Lances though: they're almost completely worthless. They should give +1 I on the charge instead of +1 S. At least that way they'd have a unique, flavorful, potentially useful benefit instead of being barely better than swords on the charge (and worse in round 2+).

 

+1S makes sense, but I guess +1I could also. It would round off the varied stat changes rather nicely, I agree. Still wouldn't touch them if they remain AP4 from the 2nd round onwards though.

[Brother Maikel]

Metagame nothing. Mauls cannot threaten Necron or Nid models with 3+ saves. The Necron Codex is LITTERED with 3+ saves, if I recall. It is a statistical inevitiability that in a tournament setting, or at most LGSs, you will enounter Marines, Necrons or Sisters of some kind.

 

Necrons get Immortals, Lychguard, and Praetorians with 3+'s. Warriors are 4+, and Wraiths don't care. In any case 3+ is not invulnerable. 3+ is successful 2/3's of the time. That means a whole 1/3 of your wounds will get through. You can certainly threaten units with 3+ saves with mauls.... that's the whole logic behind shooting down terminators with bolters/stormbolters: force enough saves and they'll fail one eventually. Mauls are better than swords at turning hits into wounds.

 

You also only addressed 'crons. What about Orks, Eldar, IG, Daemons? I almost guarantee you'll face at least one (probably more) Daemon list, and +2 Str AP4 is going to result in far more dead Screamers than +0 S AP3.

 

Plus, this isn't only a tournament thread. "Don't ever run Mauls ever" is a very strong statement that doesn't necessarily apply everywhere. If your primary opponents are Eldar, Orks, and IG then Mauls are the bee's knees.

 

Why the hell are you doing sending your DCA after a Toughness 6 model in the first place? That model likely has more than one wound and/or is a Daemon/Psyker. Send the damn Grey Knights after them.

 

Why are you sending your DCA against a target they were clearly not designed to fight against? Literally almost every other unit in the C:GK book is better at fighting vehicles than Death Cult Assassins.

 

That's all that's left? The T6 models have EW, negating the force weapon? The DCA get counter-charged by a walker or T6+ model? You need to kill a key vehicle and the DCA are the only ones in charge range? You're running a henchmen list and have no GK? There are lots of reasons.... and not all T6 critters are daemons/psykers

 

To turn it around, why are you sending DCA after Terminators? That's what Psycannons, Stormbolters and Bolter/Plasma Acolytes are for. Send your DCA against light or medium infantry.

 

 

Where did techmarines come into the discussion? There's a reason our Codex is littered with Psycannons. It's so DCA can focus on killing infantry, as they are designed to do.

 

This was a response to Reclusiarch Darius. In any case, Psycannons are most certainly not a panacea for AV13. You're relying on 6's to do anything, with (at best) 4 shots each? Toss in 5+ cover saves and that's about one pen per two Terminator-mounted Psycannons. Plus there's no guarantee that you can avoid getting charged by a Furioso or Ironclad dread. As an occasional BA player, I'd be a lot more wary of charging a Maul-armed DCA squad with my Furioso than an Axe-armed one.

 

No. You want to kill those Marines so they don't deliberately fall back and shoot you to death. Killing them on the charge removes one more unit on the table that can shoot your Assassins down.

 

Axes are superior to Mauls, Swords or lances against Terminator Armor and should be taken on EVERY squad of DCA, no exceptions.

 

Deliberately fall back? With an I6 unit trying to catch them? Good luck... DCA'll catch them about 83% of the time.

 

In any case, only Codex:Marines Termies can fall back deliberately. BA, GK, SW, DA, BT and Chaos termies don't have that option.... they have to fail leadership to even try.

 

 

I'm not saying Mauls are strictly better than Axes, I'm not even saying that they are necessarily better than axes. All I'm saying is that Maul vs Sword vs Axe is not nearly as cut-and-dried as you're making it out to be.

[BrotherWasted]

Necrons get Immortals, Lychguard, and Praetorians with 3+'s. Warriors are 4+, and Wraiths don't care. In any case 3+ is not invulnerable. 3+ is successful 2/3's of the time. That means a whole 1/3 of your wounds will get through. You can certainly threaten units with 3+ saves with mauls.... that's the whole logic behind shooting down terminators with bolters/stormbolters: force enough saves and they'll fail one eventually. Mauls are better than swords at turning hits into wounds.

 

Did you happen to miss the fact that we're talking about Power Weapons? ALL of your wounds get through against Immortals, Lychguard and Praetorians. Your Power Sword will allow you to take on nearly every unit in the Necron Codex. It is therefore objectively superior to Maul in this matchup.

 

You also only addressed 'crons. What about Orks, Eldar, IG, Daemons? I almost guarantee you'll face at least one (probably more) Daemon list, and +2 Str AP4 is going to result in far more dead Screamers than +0 S AP3.

 

I only addressed Necrons because Necrons were the only one that didn't belong in the list of armies you made. Mauls may indeed be a bit better against Eldar/Deldar, Nids or Orks, but this comprises a minority. Against the MAJORITY, Swords are superior.

 

Plus, this isn't only a tournament thread. "Don't ever run Mauls ever" is a very strong statement that doesn't necessarily apply e[verywhere. If your primary opponents are Eldar, Orks, and IG then Mauls are the bee's knees.

 

I never said we were only talking about tournaments, either. Build your army to be as effective as possible against the greatest number of threats that you can. That requires the use of Swords and Axes.

 

If I want to hit other armies with a S6 AP4 weapons.....I'll shoot my Psycannons thanks very much.

 

That's all that's left? The T6 models have EW, negating the force weapon? The DCA get counter-charged by a walker or T6+ model? You need to kill a key vehicle and the DCA are the only ones in charge range? You're running a henchmen list and have no GK? There are lots of reasons.... and not all T6 critters are daemons/psykers

 

You have failed as a general if your Death Cult Assassinsa are the only unit left to take on a Dreadnought or similar unit.

 

To turn it around, why are you sending DCA after Terminators? That's what Psycannons, Stormbolters and Bolter/Plasma Acolytes are for. Send your DCA against light or medium infantry.

 

Because like it or not, 32 AP2 Axe attacks on the charge will destroy a squad of Terminators faster than 12 or so AP2 shots fired from BS3 models.

 

This was a response to Reclusiarch Darius. In any case, Psycannons are most certainly not a panacea for AV13. You're relying on 6's to do anything, with (at best) 4 shots each? Toss in 5+ cover saves and that's about one pen per two Terminator-mounted Psycannons. Plus there's no guarantee that you can avoid getting charged by a Furioso or Ironclad dread. As an occasional BA player, I'd be a lot more wary of charging a Maul-armed DCA squad with my Furioso than an Axe-armed one.

 

Psycannons ARE the panacea for AV13. They are in fact, either equal to (in Assault Mode) or twice as effective (in Heavy Mode) a Lascannon.

 

Lascannon = 1 shot, 4/6 to hit, 2/6 to pen = 0.22222

Assault Psycannon: 2 Shots, 4/6 to hi, 1/6 to Rend (which is automatic penetration even if you roll 1 on the Rending D3) = 0.2222

Heavy Psycannon: 4 Shots, 4/6 to hi, 1/6 to Rend = 0.44444

 

Simply by virtue of having more shots and access to Rending, even Assault-Mode Psycannons penetrate AV13 better than Missile Launchers (both need 6s - a Rend equals an automatic Pen vs AV13). Against AV13, any Terminator holding a Psycannon, or PAGK standing still, has the anti-tank power of a 5-man squad of Long Fangs (Lascannon or ML variant, it doesn't matter). If that is not a definition of "panacea", I do not know what is.

 

Against AV14, Psycannons are superior to Lascannons. Mathhammer is in other threads for this.

 

Deliberately fall back? With an I6 unit trying to catch them? Good luck... DCA'll catch them about 83% of the time

 

In any case, only Codex:Marines Termies can fall back deliberately. BA, GK, SW, DA, BT and Chaos termies don't have that option.... they have to fail leadership to even try.

 

Which is fine. You still don't want them getting away from you. You want them dead to eliminate the chance of them firing on you.

 

I'm not saying Mauls are strictly better than Axes, I'm not even saying that they are necessarily better than axes. All I'm saying is that Maul vs Sword vs Axe is not nearly as cut-and-dried as you're making it out to be.

 

No, it's rather cut and dried, IMO.

[ValourousHeart]

That's all that's left? The T6 models have EW, negating the force weapon? The DCA get counter-charged by a walker or T6+ model? You need to kill a key vehicle and the DCA are the only ones in charge range? You're running a henchmen list and have no GK? There are lots of reasons.... and not all T6 critters are daemons/psykers

 

You have failed as a general if your Death Cult Assassinsa are the only unit left to take on a Dreadnought or similar unit.

 

Way to insult your opponent. How does your plan work when you face someone that tests your abilities? Or have you faced that person yet?

 

Your response tells the story for you. Yes against an incompetent general, your DCA will only have to decide which unit of baby seals they want to charge and will never worry about being charged, because your opponent will have to ask your permission first.

 

"May I charge that unit?"

"No."

 

But what happens when they have matched you at every move or worse beat you? Now they have counter charged you with a dread... Or better still they managed to charge you with something you can't hurt.

 

I am not an incompetent general, but I have lost half of my army on the first turn due to some spectacular rolls by my opponent. I also had no chance of winning the objective by turn 3. However the game ended a tie because I didn't slave myself to a strict program and instead dealt with the situation at hand.

[Brother Maikel]

Did you happen to miss the fact that we're talking about Power Weapons? ALL of your wounds get through against Immortals, Lychguard and Praetorians. Your Power Sword will allow you to take on nearly every unit in the Necron Codex. It is therefore objectively superior to Maul in this matchup.

 

Your power sword will prevent saves from nearly every unit in the Necron codex. That's not the same as allowing you to take them on: If a Maul causes 3 wounds and a 3+ armour save prevents 2 of them, while a sword only causes 1 wound that can't be saved, they have the exact same effect. Just because a weapon allows saves doesn't mean that its not effective.

 

"Power weapons" no longer just means "ignores armour saves". It means "has additional effects, some of which may include superior AP". For the Maul, that effect is primarily +2S, and secondarily AP4 and Concussive.

 

I only addressed Necrons because Necrons were the only one that didn't belong in the list of armies you made. Mauls may indeed be a bit better against Eldar/Deldar, Nids or Orks, but this comprises a minority. Against the MAJORITY, Swords are superior.

What marjority? The majority of your metagame? Not everybody is in a marine-centric environment.

In fact, if you list out the codices:

Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, Tau, Chaos Daemons

vs

C:SM, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templar, Space Wolves, Chaos Space Marines, GK, SoB

the lists are about even. And this doesn't even include Necrons, which straddle the line.

 

Look at the top tables for recent events. Who do you see? Daemons, Necrons, Orks, Guard, SW. Mostly non-PA.

 

I never said we were only talking about tournaments, either. Build your army to be as effective as possible against the greatest number of threats that you can. That requires the use of Swords and Axes.

Build your army to be effective against the greatest number of threats that you expect to face. Optimizing for Marines if you face mostly xenos is a waste of time, points, and money. Not everybody has the same mostly-Power Armour metagame that you're assuming.

 

You have failed as a general if your Death Cult Assassinsa are the only unit left to take on a Dreadnought or similar unit.

Because like it or not, 32 AP2 Axe attacks on the charge will destroy a squad of Terminators faster than 12 or so AP2 shots fired from BS3 models.

No, you've failed as a general if you have nothing in position that can take on a Dreadnaught or similar unit when you need to.

Also, what about the bucketfuls of bolter shots that henchmen/GK strikes can bring? One of every six AP - wounds will kill a terminator. I'll reiterate: you don't have to penetrate their armour to kill them. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

 

Psycannons ARE the panacea for AV13. They are in fact, either equal to (in Assault Mode) or twice as effective (in Heavy Mode) a Lascannon.

 

Lascannon = 1 shot, 4/6 to hit, 2/6 to pen = 0.22222

Assault Psycannon: 2 Shots, 4/6 to hi, 1/6 to Rend (which is automatic penetration even if you roll 1 on the Rending D3) = 0.2222

Heavy Psycannon: 4 Shots, 4/6 to hi, 1/6 to Rend = 0.44444

 

Simply by virtue of having more shots and access to Rending, even Assault-Mode Psycannons penetrate AV13 better than Missile Launchers (both need 6s - a Rend equals an automatic Pen vs AV13). Against AV13, any Terminator holding a Psycannon, or PAGK standing still, has the anti-tank power of a 5-man squad of Long Fangs (Lascannon or ML variant, it doesn't matter). If that is not a definition of "panacea", I do not know what is.

 

Against AV14, Psycannons are superior to Lascannons. Mathhammer is in other threads for this.

Any Terminator or PAGK standing still with a psycannon has the same penetrating anti-tank power as two long fangs or devastators. And half the range. Plus those long fangs can also glance on a 4/5, meaning they've got a better shot at wrecking the vehicle they're shooting at.

 

In any case the superiority of Psycannons over Lascannons is irrelevant. Each Assault-mode Pyscannon has a 22% chance of causing a single penetrating hit on AV13. That means you have to fire five psycannons at a single vehicle to have a good chance of getting one pen. That means at least two, probably three GK units in position and focus-firing on one enemy model. Which, about 1/3 of the time will cause the vehicle to explode. This isn't even taking into account cover saves, which are pretty darn easy to get in 6th, particularly with placeable terrain. This is in comparison to ~28-30 attacks on the charge, 2/3's of which hit (if it had moved), and 1/6th of which cause a glance. There's a good chance there that you'll end up glancing the vehicle to death, no saves allowed.

 

AV13/14 is beat by Melta and by high-volume high-str attacks. Mauls on DCA give them the latter.

 

Which is fine. You still don't want them getting away from you. You want them dead to eliminate the chance of them firing on you.

No, you want them stuck in combat for the turn you charge, and you want to finish them off in your opponent's turn. That way nobody can shoot your DCA, and you can charge another unit or move into better position during your next turn. Slaughtering any unit on the charge is a great recipe for getting your DCA unit shot to pieces in your opponent's turn.

 

 

I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that a Maul+Axe loadout may be the best one. Mauls for high-toughness critters, vehicles, or large blobs of unarmoured infantry and Axes for TDA and PA while relying on your Crusader bodyguard to handle return attacks.