Power Weapons

[BrotherWasted]

Way to insult your opponent. How does your plan work when you face someone that tests your abilities? Or have you faced that person yet?

 

I've faced more than my share of experienced and knowledgable players. DCA are generally OK to be mopped up by the opponent's less-threatening units. The job of the DCA is to tear the face off the biggest, most damaging threat that they can. The squad only costs 150pts. If the opponent wants to spend 2-3 units shooting them down, instead of focusing on things like my Purifiers or shooting Henchmen, they can go right ahead.

 

Your response tells the story for you. Yes against an incompetent general, your DCA will only have to decide which unit of baby seals they want to charge and will never worry about being charged, because your opponent will have to ask your permission first.

 

"May I charge that unit?"

"No."

 

What?

 

But what happens when they have matched you at every move or worse beat you? Now they have counter charged you with a dread... Or better still they managed to charge you with something you can't hurt.

 

Then, that's your own fault. You play the game out, learn from your mistakes and don't let yourself fall into that situation again. Now you're blaming your opponent for your own mistakes.

 

I am not an incompetent general, but I have lost half of my army on the first turn due to some spectacular rolls by my opponent. I also had no chance of winning the objective by turn 3. However the game ended a tie because I didn't slave myself to a strict program and instead dealt with the situation at hand.

 

This is a diced-based game, at heart. If you know you made right decisions before the opponent rolled their dice, but the rolls worked against you, that's no fault of your own. If it was truly your opponents' rolls that caused the loss of your army, and not something caused by your own game choices, then you wouldn't even be making that statement.

[spartan249]

*sigh* this is why Librarians are here. Hammerhand + might of Titan gives the henchmen the ability to obliterate anything. You don't need power mauls to provide you an overwhelming strength bonus, as we have better options for increasing their hitting power. Take care of what our powers can not provide (armor piercing capability), the rest is academic, IMO.

[Brother Maikel]

*sigh* this is why Librarians are here. Hammerhand + might of Titan gives the henchmen the ability to obliterate anything. You don't need power mauls to provide you an overwhelming strength bonus, as we have better options for increasing their hitting power. Take care of what our powers can not provide (armor piercing capability), the rest is academic, IMO.

 

Sure, but that's spending 150+ pts (more than doubling the cost of the unit) and one of our precious HQ slots, when Mauls are free. Plus Librarians are stuck in TDA, so it precludes sweeping advances and makes it more likely the unit will be left standing exposed.

[spartan249]

You have to think beyond the terms of "This HQ goes here only" or "I'm wasting an HQ slot to do this". Librarians are a good choice because they have more then one way of being relevant in an army. If you need the anti-armor or anti-MC capability in the henchmen, then the Librarian can go with the henchmen. If you don't, then he can hang out with other stuff and augment cover saves/use Divination/improve their DtW/etc.

 

Mauls may be free in points, but it costs you capabilities in combat. No HQ can solve the problem of bouncing off the target's armor, and arguing for massed wounding capability is asking for trouble since we already do that in the shooting phase. If it comes to an assault with GKs, it'll most probably be with a unit that our shooting couldn't handle. That usually = MEQs and TEQs, with some MCs thrown in. Denying their save is much more important then doing a few more wounds (something that can be done using other force multipliers).

[Brother Maikel]

True enough, though I'm not sure what Swords provide that Axes don't? Axes can penetrate better armour and provide a strength bonus. About the only advantage Swords have is their initiative, but with the way wound allocation works in 6ed I'm not so worried about taking hits from your average MEQ squad... 4 Crusaders will usually soak ~12 wounds, and don't care where those wounds come from. Plus, as I've said before, often you want to avoid killing an entire unit on the charge, to avoid getting shot up in the next round. And if you've got Axes to handle TEQ & MEQ, why not take Mauls for everything else?

[BrotherWasted]

Because you don't use Axes against MEQ. You don't send a unit with Intiative 6 against MEQ, only to swing at them at I1. Say you lose 2 DCA after you charge with the Axes, that's 8 attacks that you no longer get to make against that MEQ squad.

 

You have numerical superiority against most MEQ units in terms of Weapon Skill, Attacks and Strength/Toughness, depending on what character you attach to the squad. Striking with Mauls reduces the MEQ killing power by about 50%.

 

Assume 6DCA in the unit:

 

24 Swords vs MEQ (S4/I6) = 24 x 4/6 to hit, 3/6 to wound, 6/6 to fail save = 8

24 Mauls vs MEQ (S4/I6) = 24 x 4/6 to hit, 5/6 to wound, 2/6 to fail save = 4.4444

 

Unless the opponent is fearless, you will catch the opponent 83% of the time when they fallback - why then, would you ever count on your unit being able to tarpit the opponent for another turn, when they're probably going to be caught in Sweeping Advance? Why not just kill them outright? You're going to get shot at probably anyway.

 

Let's assume you charge the MEQ with Axes:

 

9 Tactical Marines Strike First: 9 attacks x 4/6 to hit x 4/6 to wound x 2/6 to fail Crusader Storm Shield save = 1.333 Crusader lost (let's just say 1 Crusader)

 

If this is versus models with 2A on defense (Eg Grey Hunters or CSM), this increases to 2.667 Crusaders, then 4 Crusaders if it's a squad with 2A and counter attack. More wounds will likely be suffered at this point if their squad leader has a Sword.

 

Now, you have no Crusaders left to soak up the shooting from the enemy's other squads.

 

Then, your DCA strike back with 24 Axe Attacks: 24 attacks x 4/6 to hit x 5/6 to wound x 6/6 to fail the save = 13.3333 wounds.

 

====

 

 

Regardless of whether you charge with Swords or Axes, you're going to kill that MEQ unit on the charge.

 

If nothing else, you take Swords over Mauls to kill the opponent first and keep your Storm Shield Crusaders alive. You're PROBABLY going to get shot at, regardless, so you want those Crusaders around to soak up as many wounds through the game as possible.

[spartan249]

There's one school of thought in Boxing that I always adhered to, and that's Hit without being Hit. Anything that mitigates damage to you while maximizing damage to the target is a plus in my book, and IMO, Mauls are much more situational then Swords/Lances are. I'd rather ensure that every wound I score is a kill, and that it happens before they have a chance to hit back. Axes are deadlier, but at what cost? Too high vs anything that's not TEQ, IMO.

[Brother Maikel]

The vast majority of MEQ's you'll run into that aren't Fearless have ATSKNF, so catching them with a Sweeping Advance means they end up stuck in combat, not destroyed. Same thing with TEQ's.

 

Lets say you charged a basic Tac squad: 6 DCA + 4 Crusaders vs 9 Marines and a Sergeant.

 

On the charge, you use your Mauls:

24 Mauls vs MEQ (S7/I6) = 24 x 4/6 to hit, 5/6 to wound, 2/6 to fail save = 4.4444 dead Tacs

 

Striking back, the marines hit with CCW and the Sarge has a Power Maul of his own (just for kicks)

5 CCW vs DCA (S4/I4) = 5 x 3/6 to hit (WS5 vs 4), 4/6 to wound, 2/6 to fail save = .5555 dead Crusaders

2 Maul vs DCA (S6/I4) = 2 x 3/6 to hit, 5/6 to wound, 2/6 to fail save = .278 dead Crusaders

 

Next round, axes:

another .8 dead Crusaders from marine attacks, for a total of 1.6

 

followed by

18 Axes vs MEQ (S5/I1) = 18 * 4/6 to hit, 4/6 to wound, 6/6 to fail save = 8 dead Tacs

 

This doesn't even take into account the Crusaders' weapons (axes or swords).

 

If the enemy unit has 2A or (successfully) counter-attacks, you end up losing about 3 Crusaders. If you're charging into a 2A Counter-attacking unit, then you might lose all of your crusaders and maybe one DCA. In that case I'd probably split my DCA between Mauls and Axes on the initial charge, and go all Axes in round 2. That way I can at least blunt some of the attacks coming at me, while still ensuring I can wipe out the enemy unit in two rounds of combat.

 

As far as Hitting without being Hit, normally I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, the rules of 40k provide a real incentive to avoid killing the whole enemy unit in the first round of combat. Its one of the few major issues I have with the game, as I don't think there should ever be a situation in a wargame where you root for your unit to not kill enemy models, but for better or worse it is there.

 

*edited: premature posting

[BrotherWasted]

Basically, you're saying you want your Crusaders to die. You're willing to take casualties on a glass cannon unit instead of of dealing the most damage possible over the course of the game.

 

That's what you're advocating. You're advocating losing your Crusaders in a prolonged combat, leaving your DCA without protection once the combat is over.

 

By charging and wiping that unit out, you keep your Crusaders alive, giving you those valuable 3++ against the enemy's ranged fire. Keeping those Storm Shields alive means your DCA can continue to move, potentially charging another unit throghout the game.

[spartan249]

Perhaps I need to bring in a little context here. I only ever bring one extremely capable CC unit (whether they are paladins or henchmen depends on the list) in my lists. I do this because I know that, for the most part, I have ranged combat pretty much covered. The only thing the henchmen have to accomplish is to safeguard my shooting forces, whatever the CC threat may be. This means that, for the most part, the Henchmen will not be in enemy territory, they will be in my army's midst. Once they've accomplished their job, I don't particularily care that they are out in the open for the OPFOR to fire at, they're done. This is even less of a worry if they're in cover, as they gain further survivability (in my case, Shrouding helps out even more). If they survive, cool, they'll hang out or mount up to reach another target, doesn't really concern me.

 

The best part of it is that, point for point, stuff that my GKs can't handle usually cost more then 2x the cost of my CC henchmen, which means that the moment they take care of that threat, they've already done more then their fair share. GKs are also surprisingly formidable by themselves, so anything that can seriously outclass them is also usually pretty rare.

 

With this in mind, all I want my CC henchmen to accomplish is the total annihilation of the target unit as quickly as possible, nothing else matters. I sure as heck don't want what I charged to survive, as that means that they have a chance to break out and cause more trouble for my forces.

[Brother Maikel]

No, I'm saying that I want to use the Crusaders for their purpose: tough ablative shields. I'd rather lose a Crusader or two in combat and prevent any shooting during my opponent's turn than lose none in CC and have my DCA shot up from whichever angle my Crusaders aren't able to cover after their d6" consolidation move. It's a heck of a lot easier to control who takes wounds in close combat than it is against shooting. Plus, the only time you lose all the crusaders is if you deliberately charge a large CC unit.

 

 

Edit:

 

Spartan, in that context, against an MEQ-heavy metagame then Swords + Axes might be the right call. I also might consider Lances + Axes: then you've got that additional str boost to maximize wounds at Initiative, and if necessary you can use the Axes in subsequent rounds. Just a thought.

 

In any case the point I was originally trying to make is that there are lists in which Swords + Axes aren't the only optimal setup. Tossing a 7/5 DCA/Crusader unit in a 'raven to roll up one enemy flank for instance. Or against a mostly-xenos metagame. In those circumstances the Maul offers a decent alternative that shouldn't be ignored.

[BrotherWasted]

Lances are trash. DCA striking with AP4 at regular strength is insulting to both yourself and your opponent.

 

Attach a character and cast Hammerhand if you want +1S with initiative. The lances are worse than Mauls during subsequent rounds.

 

If you're afraid of Psykers screwing your psychic tests, take a Radquisitor instead.

[spartan249]

When a Henchmen unit is used to counter-charge, getting the charge is much easier then if you're proactively maneuvering to engage a target that doesn't exactly want to fight you. If I am going on the offensive with the Henchmen, Swords are the more reliable weapon to have as they don't lose AP3 when not getting the charge. However, Lances do provide more hitting power then Swords on the charge, given that you're willing to take the gamble. With the Axe as back-up, Lances work for those willing to take the risk.

 

If, for some reason, you fight Orks, Eldar/DE, and IG only, then yeah, Mauls outperform swords quite handily. In every other case, though, AP3 at Initiative is the game changer. Unless you want to strap 3 seperate weapons on the model and declare which 2 you are using each match-up, I don't there is much good the Maul does over the Sword/Lance.

[BrotherWasted]

Pretty much. If you're building a true all-comers list (as you should be), you genuinely have no excuse not to take Sword/Axe.

 

Even if you so happen have a lot of DCA sitting around with other configurations, any other combination is pointless unless you're specifcially tailoring your list.

 

Me? I have no metagame. I don't play at one store more than twice in a row. Mostly because I find the majority of wargamers physically and mentally repulsive, but because playing against one environment constantly breeds bad playing habits and doesn't condition you to adapt. Some games don't have a lot of Marine armies, some are completely flooded with them. Ultimately it doesn't matter.

 

Experience has shown me Sword and Axe is the only noteworthy weapon combination when you have no idea who your opponent will be.

 

We haven't even brought Allies into this discussion either. All it takes is for someone to ally in some Marines/GKs/Sisters/Crons, and voila, your Mauls may end up being sub-par against an entire half of someones army.

 

Take the Sword and the Axe. Just do it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Ignoring armour saves > fancy cornercase effects. That's why mauls and spears don't work as well as sword+axe.

 

Take the Sword and the Axe. Just do it.

 

Can we end the thread now? This basically answers the OP's question.

[Brother Maikel]

*shrug* different strokes I guess.

 

For a counter-charge DCA I see the logic in trying to slaughter the enemy unit ASAP. You can usually have supporting units in the area to block line of sight or provide cover to your DCA from enemy shooting.

 

For a spearhead or flanking deployment I personally am more than happy to exchange either the ability to penetrate 2+ Armour (Maul + Sword, if terminators aren't popular in my area) or the ability to avoid some damage by striking first (Maul + Axe) for the ability to modulate my damage output to (typically smallish, 5-10 model) Power Armour units on the charge in order to ensure my unit cannot be shot in the opponent's turn. The bonuses against Hordes, Vehicles and T6+ infantry/MCs are just icing on the cake.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

*shrug* different strokes I guess.

 

For a counter-charge DCA I see the logic in trying to slaughter the enemy unit ASAP. You can usually have supporting units in the area to block line of sight or provide cover to your DCA from enemy shooting.

 

For a spearhead or flanking deployment I personally am more than happy to exchange either the ability to penetrate 2+ Armour (Maul + Sword, if terminators aren't popular in my area) or the ability to avoid some damage by striking first (Maul + Axe) for the ability to modulate my damage output to (typically smallish, 5-10 model) Power Armour units on the charge in order to ensure my unit cannot be shot in the opponent's turn. The bonuses against Hordes, Vehicles and T6+ infantry/MCs are just icing on the cake.

 

It's not just that. Even going the half-DCA, half-Crusader build, they are still a unit of T3 models with decent to weak saves. They HAVE TO steamroller the opposition on the turn they charge in/get charged, as they cannot do attrition combat. That's why when you commit with them, it's largely launching a cruise missile. They drop out of the Raven, delete whatever they touch, then get murdered (thus drawing firepower off your other infantry, like Knights).

 

Even if you are trying to go for a '2nd round wipeout' shenanigan, you are likely to lose all the Crusaders (T3 is pretty easy to wound). The DCA clean up, but then whatever they attempt to charge next, they won't have that buffer (and without grenades, I1 means Tac Marines can punch you to death before you get your hits in). So, maybe two combats...either way, you wanna roll right over whatever you hit in melee, as the Crusaders only bring the durability up from 'abysmal' to 'average'.