Bulwyf Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 The fleshing out of the reasons for Perturabo's going traitor ie. the purging of Olympia, brings up a point I had been dwelling on for a long time. In 'The First Heretic", Erebus mentions inciting rebellion on the Iron Warriors world in order to bring them into the fold. Now I'm not expecting a turn of allegiance from the IW in 30k or 40k, but if Perturabo or any of the IW were to find this out (and I can't imagine it really staying a secret for 10k years), do they go to war with the Word Bearers? Isn't that the grounds for war moreso than most things the Traitor Legions go to war for? I think that having WB or AL be the ones to make the world go rebel just to incite Perturabo is something he would have found out by now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3240340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I finished this book earlier. Didn't like it very much at all. And i'm the guy who normally forgives alot of the foibles of HH books. Not to be negative, let's look at what it did right: Perturabo: This is about it really. Perturabo for me has always been that irritating unfleshed primarch who turned because he was feeling unappreciated. Which always irked me because i got the impression that the iron warriors rather liked the whole siege craft business, so why be so angry just because you've been lumped doing the task you happen to be very good at? The book does bring him into a more sympathetic light. I liked the portrayal of him as the underestimated polymath, with reams of beautiful architectural designs, for buildings that will never see the light of day, simply because everyone just assumes he is a war mason. See that was nifty. Now what doesnt work? Well it's too self referential. As people have mentioned, Mcneil felt obliged to lob everyone iron warrior he's ever created in there, as well as a fight on a planet that arbitrarily turns out to be Hydra Cordatus. See, it's supposed to make you go "oooh its from that thingy!" But when you've already seen every character from that book file in already, it just comes across as a "Oh what are the odds" moment. My biggest, battle barge sized problem with the book is that its got no damned focus. It's an Emperors children book, that later became more of an iron warriors book (as admitted by the author), but the iron warriors simply don't need to be in there at all. Read it again. Find me some hard evidence that the iron warriors being there helped advance the plot in anyway? It's all about Fulgrim becoming a daemon prince, nothing about the iron warrior involvement suggested to me that they helped progress this in anyway. "Oh but Fulgrim wanted to kill Perturabo to seal the deal with slaanesh" you say? But Fulgrim is elevated even when Perturabo manages to jack his soul back, so what the hell was the point in them being there? The iron warrior involvement just meant that the book was about twice the length it needed to be, without really going anywhere. Fulgrim's apotheosis could easily have been covered in a novella and i'm sure such a talented bunch could wrangle a fun iron warriors novel. Oh and Fabius....Christ in a crucifix shop.... You're evil, we get it... The lack of character development this guy has enjoyed is ridiculous. I'm sure his big transition from 30k to 40k is acquiring a skin coat, that's about it. It seems every sodding book he's in, all the guy is good for is vamping it up to some poor bastard strapped down in his apothecarion. Bit of a rant but i started the book quite enjoying it, then the whole thing just stalled. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3240773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 I finished this book earlier. Didn't like it very much at all. And i'm the guy who normally forgives alot of the foibles of HH books. Not to be negative, let's look at what it did right: Perturabo: This is about it really. Perturabo for me has always been that irritating unfleshed primarch who turned because he was feeling unappreciated. Which always irked me because i got the impression that the iron warriors rather liked the whole siege craft business, so why be so angry just because you've been lumped doing the task you happen to be very good at? The book does bring him into a more sympathetic light. I liked the portrayal of him as the underestimated polymath, with reams of beautiful architectural designs, for buildings that will never see the light of day, simply because everyone just assumes he is a war mason. See that was nifty. Now what doesnt work? Well it's too self referential. As people have mentioned, Mcneil felt obliged to lob everyone iron warrior he's ever created in there, as well as a fight on a planet that arbitrarily turns out to be Hydra Cordatus. See, it's supposed to make you go "oooh its from that thingy!" But when you've already seen every character from that book file in already, it just comes across as a "Oh what are the odds" moment. My biggest, battle barge sized problem with the book is that its got no damned focus. It's an Emperors children book, that later became more of an iron warriors book (as admitted by the author), but the iron warriors simply don't need to be in there at all. Read it again. Find me some hard evidence that the iron warriors being there helped advance the plot in anyway? It's all about Fulgrim becoming a daemon prince, nothing about the iron warrior involvement suggested to me that they helped progress this in anyway. "Oh but Fulgrim wanted to kill Perturabo to seal the deal with slaanesh" you say? But Fulgrim is elevated even when Perturabo manages to jack his soul back, so what the hell was the point in them being there? The iron warrior involvement just meant that the book was about twice the length it needed to be, without really going anywhere. Fulgrim's apotheosis could easily have been covered in a novella and i'm sure such a talented bunch could wrangle a fun iron warriors novel. Oh and Fabius....Christ in a crucifix shop.... You're evil, we get it... The lack of character development this guy has enjoyed is ridiculous. I'm sure his big transition from 30k to 40k is acquiring a skin coat, that's about it. It seems every sodding book he's in, all the guy is good for is vamping it up to some poor bastard strapped down in his apothecarion. Bit of a rant but i started the book quite enjoying it, then the whole thing just stalled. Just to answer your question but Fulgrim said flat out that only Perturabo could work his way through the Eldar maze at the heart of the crone world and that is why Fulgrim had to trick him into coming. The whole stealing Perturabo's life force or whatever that stone was doing was also a goal to get elevated to princehood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3240869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Now what doesnt work? Well it's too self referential. As people have mentioned, Mcneil felt obliged to lob everyone iron warrior he's ever created in there, as well as a fight on a planet that arbitrarily turns out to be Hydra Cordatus. See, it's supposed to make you go "oooh its from that thingy!" But when you've already seen every character from that book file in already, it just comes across as a "Oh what are the odds" moment. This had absolutely no effect on me as I've not read any of the IW novels by McNeil. I think the book was busy and less focused BUT I think he did a pretty good job with those extra chess pieces on the board. I'm actually quite surprised it read so well with the extras. I kept telling myself he is digging a hole he won't be able to climb out of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3240900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 only Perturabo could work his way through the Eldar maze at the heart of the crone world and that is why Fulgrim had to trick him into coming. This reminds me of the greek tragedy "Philoktetes" by Sophokles, where Odysseus and Neoptolemos, the son of Achilles, sail to the island of lemnos to retrieve the bow of Herakles, which is needed to win the trojan war. Philoktetes, who was left behind by them there earlier because of a grieveous wound, keeps the bow for himself and has to be tricked into aiding the war of his former comrades who betrayed him before. In the end, Neoptolemos is too ashamed to lie, but Herakles himself appears and sends Philoktetes to Troja. Are there any more parallels? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3241154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 witchunter kraine, My thoughts -exactly- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3241600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 The book's lack of focus is certainly its biggest problem. But for this lack is not primarily brought about by the inclussion of the Iron Warriors. Indeed I think they are an interessting addition to the story as we finally get to know Perturabo a bit better! (Also I don't know the other IW books so the names-dropping didn't annoy me so much.) I think what really brought about a lack of focus was the inclussion of the uncatchable, Land Raider-wrecking, eye-lense-piercing Iron Hands/Raven Guard super-assassin-stealth team. Yes, a story like this needs an antagonist who works against the main character's plans. But these two were incredibly over the top and annoying to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3242579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 The book's lack of focus is certainly its biggest problem. But for this lack is not primarily brought about by the inclussion of the Iron Warriors. Indeed I think they are an interessting addition to the story as we finally get to know Perturabo a bit better! (Also I don't know the other IW books so the names-dropping didn't annoy me so much.) I think what really brought about a lack of focus was the inclussion of the uncatchable, Land Raider-wrecking, eye-lense-piercing Iron Hands/Raven Guard super-assassin-stealth team. Yes, a story like this needs an antagonist who works against the main character's plans. But these two were incredibly over the top and annoying to me. Emperor's Children did a edit job at securing the perimeter beforehand so it's hardly a super duper feat. Edit by Insane Psychopath - Please watch the launge Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3242584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I really enjoyed it, but its horses for courses, its fantasy and I thought a good story and advanced the story line, loved the Iron Hands mad scientist frater. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3242985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Fabius has to be the worst character in all of Warhammer, 30K 40K whatever. No author can make him good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3243183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Fabius has to be the worst character in all of Warhammer, 30K 40K whatever. No author can make him good. I can. "Fabius looked at the hapless marine of the First Legion. His flesh blades and pain devices had rendered the noble Astartes into but a husk of what he had been. A flash of sentience appeared in the Dark Angel's eyes, and Fabius leaned close to whisper something into his ears. 'I ... am ... Alpharius.' " Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3243320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Fabius has to be the worst character in all of Warhammer, 30K 40K whatever. No author can make him good. I can. "Fabius looked at the hapless marine of the First Legion. His flesh blades and pain devices had rendered the noble Astartes into but a husk of what he had been. A flash of sentience appeared in the Dark Angel's eyes, and Fabius leaned close to whisper something into his ears. 'I ... am ... Alpharius.' " I'd read that just to see the aftermath of all the ECers spontaneously birthing angst kittens. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3243328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 The book's lack of focus is certainly its biggest problem. But for this lack is not primarily brought about by the inclussion of the Iron Warriors. Indeed I think they are an interessting addition to the story as we finally get to know Perturabo a bit better! (Also I don't know the other IW books so the names-dropping didn't annoy me so much.) I think what really brought about a lack of focus was the inclussion of the uncatchable, Land Raider-wrecking, eye-lense-piercing Iron Hands/Raven Guard super-assassin-stealth team. Yes, a story like this needs an antagonist who works against the main character's plans. But these two were incredibly over the top and annoying to me. Emperor's Children did a edit job at securing the perimeter beforehand so it's hardly a super duper feat. We never hear anything about the perimeter security (also don't forget the Iron Warriors. Masters of paranoia etc.) but even if the perimeter was indeed not secured the fact that they kill scores of marines and blow up at least 4 Land Raiders while doing it is just.... stupid. Fabius has to be the worst character in all of Warhammer, 30K 40K whatever. No author can make him good. I can. "Fabius looked at the hapless marine of the First Legion. His flesh blades and pain devices had rendered the noble Astartes into but a husk of what he had been. A flash of sentience appeared in the Dark Angel's eyes, and Fabius leaned close to whisper something into his ears. 'I ... am ... Alpharius.' " Laughed so hard. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3243779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 We never hear anything about the perimeter security (also don't forget the Iron Warriors. Masters of paranoia etc.) but even if the perimeter was indeed not secured the fact that they kill scores of marines and blow up at least 4 Land Raiders while doing it is just.... stupid. Sharrowkyn and Wayland are legion elite. Assassination team was prepared and explosives were set nicely. Most of the deaths were from mortals only a few Astartes were killed. Land Raiders were destroyed by a customized Storm Eagle. Perturabo said if EC ships were arranged in a proper manner they would have destroyed the vehicle. I don't see any stretch here really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3243793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Sharrowkyn and Wayland are legion elite Of course they are. What they do is still preposterously over the top. Assassination team was prepared and explosives were set nicely. Ok, let's just take this fact as a given even though it seems highly unlikely to me that they were even able to achieve this undetected. Most of the deaths were from mortals only a few Astartes were killed. Well yes most were cultists that is true. Does not change the fact that they also killed a dozen Astartes or more. Again, let's say that they are indeed the best of the best. It was still very annoying to me that they did not just kill them but that every shot "perfectly pierced the warrior's eyelense", "found the weak points between his opponent's armor plates" or "passed right through his respirator grill". It just seemed so over the top. Land Raiders were destroyed by a customized Storm Eagle. Which was actually IMO the worst thing about the whole chapter. What kind of crazy powerful thing is this? Destroying 4 Land Raiders in a heartbeat? Why wouldn't this be mass produced? And not only does it have this incredible firepower, it is also super-maneuverable and highly detection resistant. Honestly it just seems like an unstoppable super-MacGuffin. Perturabo said if EC ships were arranged in a proper manner they would have destroyed the vehicle. Fair enough. This doesn't even bother me. It is the part up until they leave the atmosphere that bugs me. I don't see any stretch here really. "Stretch" might not be the right word here. It implies a lack of realism and realism certainly is not a (big) part of an interessting 40k story. My problem is not that I don't think that these two should not have been able to infiltrate the amphitheatre and escape. That premisse sounds like a very interessting story. My problem is the way in which they do it. There is no real danger. Instead of making their escape challenging it appears like the author just used it to show how incredibly super-uper-powerful these two are. In short it seems like really lazy narrating with a dash of fanboyism on the side. Of course these are just my two cents and I don't want this to seem like I am really upset about any of this. It is simply something that I did not enjoy. And I think it definately made Angel Exterminatus a worse book overall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 @Lepaca Well, i can only add this to this discussion. You find elites dropping legion grunts left and right preposterous but that's what always happens in this universe. Be it Sevatar chain murdering bunch of DA or Erebus breezing through loyalists ranks or Ventanus gutting Word Bearers with each stroke of his sword etc. Hell, Sigismund eats other legion elites for snacks. Compared to them Sharrowkyn killing bunch of isolated no name Astartes easily is lite stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Well put Billuriye Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Thanks Augustus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 @Lepaca Well, i can only add this to this discussion. You find elites dropping legion grunts left and right preposterous but that's what always happens in this universe. Be it Sevatar chain murdering bunch of DA or Erebus breezing through loyalists ranks or Ventanus gutting Word Bearers with each stroke of his sword etc. Hell, Sigismund eats other legion elites for snacks. Compared to them Sharrowkyn killing bunch of isolated no name Astartes easily is lite stuff. Where have you read Sigismund eats other legion elites for Snacks? I've not read about him facing any marines yet, the last time he popped up was in Crimson Fist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Where have you read Sigismund eats other legion elites for Snacks? I've not read about him facing any marines yet, the last time he popped up was in Crimson Fist. He challenges 13 or so traitor champions to a duel and kills them all in Siege of Terra as the Emperor's Champion. It was either in Index Astartes or Codex:Black Templars i guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Ah, I knew that. I thought you were on about it being in the latest novels, I heard he faces some Word Bearers or something and thought it may be that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Where have you read Sigismund eats other legion elites for Snacks? I've not read about him facing any marines yet, the last time he popped up was in Crimson Fist. He challenges 13 or so traitor champions to a duel and kills them all in Siege of Terra as the Emperor's Champion. It was either in Index Astartes or Codex:Black Templars i guess. I'd suspect a retcon in the works for that body count if Sevatar, Lucius and Khârn all consider Sigismund to be beatable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I'd suspect a retcon in the works for that body count if Sevatar, Lucius and Khârn all consider Sigismund to be beatable. Sure but if that happens, it'll take away a lot from the mantle of Emperor's Champion and Sigismund's badassary. Also, John French depicted him as the best fighter amongst Astartes in Shadows of Treachery. So far, it seems they are just preparing him for his finest moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Yeah, even the World Eaters knew him as the Black Knight in their Gladiatorial pits, undefeated there I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Sevatar tied/beat/lost to Sigusmund in a bout. --Prince of crows Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264418-angel-exterminatus/page/4/#findComment-3244341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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