Angel Exterminatus

[Augustus]

Sevatar tied/beat/lost to Sigusmund in a bout.

--Prince of crows

[Emperor's Furor]

Grr I should really get that mp3, I didn't get shadow of treachery as I already had all the other stories apart from Prince of Crow. I had the Dark King and Lightning Tower from the original gamesday limited edition, I read Crimson Fist when they put it up as a solo download, so Prince of Crows is the only one I need but it's not in book form only mp3 ;)

[Billuriye]

Sevatar tied/beat/lost to Sigusmund in a bout.

--Prince of crows

 

Well, there is that too but i'd imagine Sigismund in a casual match is different from Sigismund with hate and best possible weapons.

[KarkassBC]

Sevatar tied/beat/lost to Sigusmund in a bout.

--Prince of crows

 

Well, there is that too but i'd imagine Sigismund in a casual match is different from Sigismund with hate and best possible weapons.

 

Also a friendly match is completely different from a fight to the last blood. In a friendly match the duelists impose on themselves some restrictions... not in a win or be killed situation.

[Azarias]

I just finished reading it this morning, and I'd like to procrastinate further, so here's my thoughts.

 

As a writer, McNeill has always bothered me. Just now I looked up his list of Horus Heresy books and realized that they were the ones that were the most overwrought in terms of both details and narrative development. For example,

are we really to believe that Leonardo da Vinci, the Firenzii (Italian: Firenze; English: Florence - Da Vinci was from that city) had anything to do with a machine that created incendiary bolter rounds? I mean, really: "Heavy, custom-fabricated rounds - fashioned by a machine of the Firenzii polymath - punched through Legion plate with plasmic armor-piercing warheads and used their victims' body mass as bio-thermic fuel." What do we, as readers, gain by this bizarre connection? The parallels between the two renaissance men have been clearly established by now. So why bother if it adds nothing but distraction?

He seems addicted to the idea of metaphor and comparison by volume, when the finesse of a single, well-constructed simile would do (see ADB's use of "corposant" in Aurelian for an example).That many of his characters are clichés is well-established. For example,

Thamatica is a rote mad scientist whose scenes are contrived to the point of farce, while Fabius Bile is simply evil for evil's-oh-wait-immortality's sake.

 

 

And yet, he has somehow managed to create the best presentation of any primarch seen to date. McNeill summarizes his portrayal at the end of the book, where he writes: "Perturabo willingly embraced betrayal because he couldn't see a way out of the rut he'd been driven into and the genocide he'd unleashed. Guilt and shame are powerful motivators, and to avoid facing them, the path of least resistance is often the one that takes you deeper into trouble." With a perverse deftness (in the sense that other, shallower characters get more attention, so that Perturabo is simultaneously left on the back burner and the centre stage) we see the Iron Warriors' Primarch as a real person for the first time, and then we're able to see how his guilt and shame play out - while there are tantrums, I would focus more on the scene where he smashes his clockwork Titan in Fulgrim's face, sacrificing his creation for the sake of a power play, and how he then tries to repair it.

 

The book expresses the essential conflict within Perturabo's character by way of the contrast between the fortresses he destroys and the communal structures he longs to build. While the obvious contrast (creation vs. destruction) is cute, what's more interesting is the secondary contrast (isolation vs. community). His dream constructions are all community based, which, while hinting at a desire to belong, also provides a lovely contrast with the isolation of a fortress (a place to keep people out). Indeed, Perturabo's fall into Chaos can be plotted by the degrees to which he withdraws himself from others (for example: "

From now on, he would only trust Horus Lupercal

"). It even fits nicely into established canon, in that he will eventually create the most isolated and sociopathic of fortresses, the Iron Cage, thus signaling his allegiance to Chaos. But most importantly, it's the fact that these kinds of details are kept hidden and seemingly unacknowledged within the narrative (much in the way that Perturabo refuses to acknowledge his own guilt) that make this portrayal of the Primarch so great.

 

Hence my confusion. Ostensibly, you have a confused hybrid of a novel, part Emperor's Children, part Iron Warriors, when the plot really doesn't demand this fusion - someone, pages ago, mentioned how Perturabo was needed to navigate the labyrinth; that struck me as an unnecessary narrative detail, easily fixed by simply not including the labyrinth. Furthermore, you have a bunch of clichés contextualized by 40K canon. Add a generous dollop of action writing, and you've got another mediocre novel. But add Perturabo, and you have one of the best Horus Heresy novels to date. The only thing that bothers me about it is how a writer I've grown accustomed to producing mediocrity manages to hit this one detail out of the ballpark.

[Balthamal]

Just going to add my 2 pence to this since I like how there's been a fair bit of debate going back and forth

 

POTENTIAL SPOILERS READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

 

OK Things that I liked:

 

Perturabo. The one thing in this novel that belongs in the top tier of work thus far in the HH series. As previously mentioned, Legion, The First Heretic and Know No Fear are probably the 3 best written so far and Perturabo belongs in that caliber of novel. Everything about him is riveting from his disillusion over how he considers himself an architect and builder but is left destroying everything instead (puts a very nice spin on his rivalry with Dorn, in that Dorn was chosen to "build" the Imperial Palace) through to how he sees himself apart from his brothers and his crushing sense of despair at burning his own world.

 

His quote "None of you ever cared enough to find out" to me, shows that he yearned to feel a part of the brotherhood of Primarchs but never could because his brothers viewed his Legion as a tool. Part of this is possibly due to his (surprising) friendship with Magnus and being told that Magnus would not be crusading with him for the time being. Potentially some future arcs seeded there. To finish, the one thing I got from Perturabo was him being an outsider from his brothers but not by choice as with The Night Haunter or Alpharius who were that way because they wanted to be.

 

Forrix. I have to state, I have never read Storm of Iron, in fact the only previous Iron Warrior material I've read is The Iron Within, The Skull Harvest and another short from Hammer and Bolter whose title escapes me but features Soltarn Vul Bronn. What I like about Forrix is his way of leading the elite of the Legion. Pretty much every other 1st captain is one of the greatest warriors in the galaxy (Sigismund, Abaddon, Raldoron, Sevatar etc) but Forrix is less about killing hundreds himself and is more a polymath which ties in with his Legions philosophy of war. Plus I found his despair at the end to be quite interesting in that he would subordinate himself in the future to one of his equals because of being betrayed by a brother.

 

The Broken Legionnaires. Great to see some action from those who lived on Istvaan V. It always annoyed me in the fluff how they were mentioned as being part of the drop site massacre and then vanished from the galaxy for the 10 years of heresy. Now we know that they live. We know that they fight. And we know they aren't pushovers as Horus has his way with the galaxy leading up to the Siege of Terra.

 

The Eldar cameo. Specifically the revelation that back in M31 the Dark Eldar weren't all that dark and were following the same method of avoiding a dinner date with Slannesh as their craftworld kin.

 

Now onto what I found less entertaining.

 

The ECs in general. Yes they're insane. Yes they're the most corrupted Legion. Yes their Primarch was a weakling who gave up to a daemon. It's fair to say I don't like the EC. Whilst I enjoyed Fulgrim for the view it gave us of a Legion descending through corruption to damnation, I hated them the most until those charming Word Bearers came along.Now they're back tied. It's been mentioned a lot that they're evil for evil's sake. Totally agree. The only scene I enjoyed with one of their characters was Lucius dying. It was almost as satisfying as Kor Phaeron getting his heart ripped out.

 

The action scenes weren't too bad but to be fair Know No Fear and ADB have raised my expectations to such an extent that anything falling short of such standards is quite dismal in comparison.

 

All in all I'd say its safely in to the bracket of good reads but doesn't quite hit the heights of A Thousand Sons.

[Smirnov]

The book made me feel sympathy for Perturabo. That alone makes it a fine read.

But what I didn't get was the inclusion of the Fists tormented by Fabius. What role do they serve in the plot?

[KarkassBC]

The book made me feel sympathy for Perturabo. That alone makes it a fine read.

But what I didn't get was the inclusion of the Fists tormented by Fabius. What role do they serve in the plot?

 

Maybe like in a TV serial the authors put some clues in one episode to create a reason for a future one.

[Nehekhare]

i doubt there is much future for what once has been felix cassander. There was a theory about his geneseed mixed with that of hon(orable) sou(laka) to create McNeills favorite villain, though.

[Lepaca]

i doubt there is much future for what once has been felix cassander. There was a theory about his geneseed mixed with that of hon(orable) sou(laka) to create McNeills favorite villain, though.

 

This is so stupid that it propably makes sense in McNeil's mind. :down:

[Anvilarium]

The Eldar cameo. Specifically the revelation that back in M31 the Dark Eldar weren't all that dark and were following the same method of avoiding a dinner date with Slannesh as their craftworld kin.

 

Not really.

 

 

The Soul Stones didn't contain Dark Eldar souls, they were the souls of the Eldar who had lived on that planet when the Eye of Terror erupted and Slaanesh awoke.

 

The Dark Eldar wanted to take the Soul Stones from the Crone World in order to sacrifice them to Slaneesh as part of a deal where Slaanesh would in return leave them alone for all time.

 

[Aegnor]

And Eidolon's resurrection, another way of bringing a primarch back AKA Ferrus Manus?

I know second one is a bit far fetched what with Ferrus' head being with Fulgrim, but still, Primarch awesomeness and such.

 

Ferrus' head isn't with Fulgrim, it's with Horus. Daemon-Fulgrim gave it to Horus at the end of the novel Fulgrim and

in the new audio-drama Warmaster you see Horus talking to the skull - in fact I'd say Warmaster actually removed any slim prospect of Ferrus being resurrected.

 

[KarkassBC]

I have a doubt.

Considering the preference for the iron over the flesh by the Iron Hands, there are description of cybernetic replacements or not for Ferrus Manus?

 

If he had some enhanced parts and those parts saved his memories, one day we would read about a huge dreadnought (or Legio Cybernetica robot) with memories of Ferrus Manus.

 

I think the re-vitalization process is impossible to reproduce on a Primarch, because even the most gifted Apothecarion doesn't have knowledge of Primarch's physiology.

[Kol Saresk]

Unless the Apothecary's name is Fabius Bile.....

[Billuriye]

I have a doubt.

Considering the preference for the iron over the flesh by the Iron Hands, there are description of cybernetic replacements or not for Ferrus Manus?

 

If he had some enhanced parts and those parts saved his memories, one day we would read about a huge dreadnought (or Legio Cybernetica robot) with memories of Ferrus Manus.

 

I think the re-vitalization process is impossible to reproduce on a Primarch, because even the most gifted Apothecarion doesn't have knowledge of Primarch's physiology.

 

Ferrus got no bionic replacements. His eyes and arms were covered by some xeno juice.

[Aegnor]

Have you guys listened to Warmaster?

Ferrus' head is not a head anymore. It's just a burnished skull - I never liked the idea he might be resurrected somehow, but that's quite diferent from the head being in stasis or frozen or hooked up to life support. Primarch or not, I don't think he can survive the total destruction of his brain.

[Demus Ragnok]

Ferrus.Manus.Is.Dead.

The events of Fulgrim make that very clear.

And even if someone had copies of a primarchs memories they still wouldn't have a primarch. Why you ask?

Because the primarchs were not simple genetically engineered super humans. They were the product of soul sorcery,"blood pacts" made between the Emperor and the Dark Gods. Ferrus' "highlanderish" death scene illustrates that.

[Kol Saresk]

Guys, I think he got it the first time. Calm down. There's more dead horses to beat somewhere else. Yowzah.

[ShadowMaster]

First off, I think it was a great read. Well paced, and great characters (I did like fulgrim).

 

On another note, what about some of the little hints talked about in the book? I know of two that immediately made me smile.

 

Conrad Curze has a labyrinth made by Perturabo as a holding cell for an important person (Vulkan?!?)

 

Perturabo mentioned that some Primarchs failed the emperor's test before taking their oath and going to war. (missing primarchs?)

 

Thank the Emperor, I'm not the only one with that theory about Vulkan!!!!

 

And also concerning the debate raging on about Sigismund, he will dominate any Astartes. You can throw anything you want at him, he is the Emperor's Champion and by all that is holy he will get his time to shine! But srsly, i feel sorry for the Imperial fists, they get chopped up everywhere it seems.

 

About Nykona beating Lucius, that was :cussing awesome. dunno why some people got mad about that. RG elite 1v1 fighters are pretty underrated, it's what they excel at. And Lucius loses to everyone noteworthy anyway it seems, Loken, Tarvitz and the Infamous Lord Commander Cyrus all took him down.