Fixing Units

[Valerian]

So, we did this little exercise after the Codex Grey Knights was released, but that was way back in the 5e era. Now that 6e has been on the streets for several months, how would you "fix" the Grey Knights? Specifically, there are several units that are cool concepts, but rather poorly implemented. Think of those units that most folks never take, figure out why, and let the rest of us know how you think it can be done better the next time our codex gets revved.

 

Off of the top of my head, examples of units that need to be addressed include:

 

Mordrak

Stern

Crowe

Brother Captain

Brotherhood Champion

Techmarine

Apothecary

Purgator Squads

 

Of course, your thoughts on other improvements would also be welcome, even if the fix is a nerf to a unit that's needs to be reigned in, if it is too good.

 

Valerian

[Aethernitas]

Mordrak - give him 'independent character'; keep ghostknight-retinue as option which takes his 'independent character'-rule and instead of stealth (makes no sense for me) give that squad 'counter-attack' or something along the lines to represent their urge for vengeance

Stern - change 'zone of banishment' a little to make it more useful. A possibility could be to let it nullify all invul-saves in it's radius or something like that.

Crowe - give him 'independent character'; remove the rending cleansing flame... it's just silly

Brother Captain - give him some 'grand strategy's lil brother' special rule ('Leading the Spearhead - before deployment nominate 1d3 non-mechanical units. Those units roll one less die for scattering when arriving by deep-strike' or give him Mordraks 'first in the fray' - fluffwise I would explain those due to the fact that the codex states BC are always in the heart of battle and fighting at the front while GMs are more aloft to oversee the battle and make the strategic decisions)

Brotherhood-Champion - change the 'Heroic Sacrifice' power to '[...] if this attack hits, the Brotherhood Champion is removed and the target takes 1d3 wounds with no saves of any kind allowed'; also give him a second wound and raise the point-costs a little

Techmarine - give him the option to take a servitor retinue (like all other Techmarines); otherwise I think he is actually okay

Apothecary - also not much to change imo; maybe a little cost reduction but not sure bout that

Purgator Squads - change the cover save the target receives from their psypower to 5+ or maybe change it to 'can shoot their weapons 6" to 12" further' or 'count as relentless till the end of the round'

Draigo - give him AP2 and reduce the strenght-boost instead - a lil like Abbys Drach'nyen but without the option for using the claw

Psilencer - either give it some funky ability to reflect the 'silencer' wordplay; something like 'ignores cover' (cuz those are insubstantial psychic bolts anyway) or wounds EVERYTHING on 4+; alternatively give those 36" range

Cotaez - take his ability to take henchman as standard and more than just once and make it available for every Inquisitor as an Upgrade ('Upgrade to Lord-Inquisitor ............... 50pts'); give him something else instead

Venerable Dreadnought - give it a 4+ invul-save against hull point loss, make dreadknight weaponry available; give him an additional psychic power

 

 

 

REMOVE ALL HERETICUS AND XENOS UNITS AND CHARACTERS!

 

I'm sure I could think of more worthwhile changes but I'm tired and thats it for a quick start :)

[L30n1d4s]

Stern - Give him a Brotherhood Banner as part of his wargear and Make Zone of Banishment 2D6" and only affect enemy units.

 

Crowe - Let his Master Swordsman rule let him rend on a 3+ (vice 4+) and give him a 2++ save in close combat. Let him make Purifiers scoring units, but not Troops.

 

Brother Captain - Have him come with a Brotherhood Banner for free as part of his wargear, let him be able to exchange Terminator Armor for Artificier armor for free, and give him the option of taking a Personal Teleporter (when wearing AA) for +20 points

 

Brotherhood Champion - Give him the option of taking a Personal Teleporter for +20 points, let Herald of Titan give his unit the Hatred USR (vice only re-rolling to hit when they charge).

 

Techmarine - Replace "Bolster Defenses" with "Blessing of Mars", which enables him to give D3 vehicles immunity to melta weapons special rules; et him take a Personal Teleporter for +20 points.

 

Apothecary - Drop cost to 65 points for upgrade (vice 75 points).

 

Purgator Squads - Make "Astral Aim" let the squad shoot at BS5, vice shoot without LOS.

 

*Psilencer/Heavy Psilencer - Make the Psilencer a S4 AP- Assault 6 weapon, make the Gatling Psilencer a S5 AP - Heavy 12 weapon, and make any unit wounded by either of them have to re-roll succcessful invul saves (so, basically, a very anti-Daemon weapon)

 

*Heavy Psycannon - Make it a S8 AP4, Heavy 1, Large Blast, Rending weapon.

 

*Venerable Dread - Give it one more hull point (so 4 HPs) for free and allow it to purchase one Psyker Power (in addition to Fortitiude) from the GK Psychic Powers for +20 points.

 

*Purifiers - Increase their base cost to 26 points per model (all other options remain the same)

 

*Interceptors - Decrease their base cost to 25 points per model (all other options remain the same)

 

*Inquisitors - Let the Henchman Warband they unlock be a Troops option (still only get one, unless they are Coteaz)

 

*Coteaz - Increase his cost to 150 points; make his eagle reduce his opponent's weapon skill by D3, vice be a shooting attack.

 

*Valeria - Decrease her cost to 100 points; let her upgrade any bolter weapons (BP/Bolter/Storm Bolter/Heavy Bolter)on her Henchman Warband with Hellfire rounds for free; give her Rad, Psykostroke, and Blind grenades.

 

*Vindicare - Ignore Look out Sir rule; Turbo penetrator round causes ID against non-vehicle models and only does 3D6 penetration against vehicles.

 

*Callidus - Ignores Look out Sir rule; C'tan blade causes ID, is AP2, and forces target to re-roll successful Invul saves; she has Shrouded and Stealth USRs.

 

*Eversor - Ignores Look out Sir rule; Combat Drugs allow him to move 12" and give him D6 extra attacks every round (not just when he charges); has Rampage USR.

 

*Culexus - Ignores Look out Sir rule; Animus Speculum is S6 AP1 Assault 2 and add +2 shots for every Psyker within 12" of him; Shooting attacks cause ID to Psykers.

[spartan249]

Mordrak needs to lose first to the fray to get independent character. I'd then make the Ghost Knights unique in that they are always joined to Mordrak and can never leave him, but Mordrak can still go join a squad (effectively adding 6 models at full price to whatever unit he joins). Look Out Sir attempts automatically pass and have to go to the Ghost Knights until they're gone, at which point LO,S works as normal.

 

I can't think of any way to salvage Stern. He's mildly amusing, but offers basically nothing for his 200 points. Can't take abilities away, and can't give him more abilities without affecting Brother Captains in general.

 

Brother Captains would have to either get better in melee or provide a force multiplier unique to him. Thanks to the design philosophy used here, anything Brother Captains gain would have to go to Grand Masters too, so any changes have to be carefully considered here.

 

Crowe would instantly become amazing if he had IC status. Of course, any changes to him would probably also make his cleansing flame not rend, but give some to get some, right?

 

Brotherhood Champions only need an extra wound for the most part. The option to master-craft instead of take digital weapons (...) would be much better as well.

 

Techmarines need to become equivalent to all the other techmarines running around and be able to take Servitors, as well as be able to prevent them from mind-locking. I have no idea why the hell Techmarines can't do either.

 

As far as Purgation Squads go, a rework of Astral Aim + more conventional weapon pricing would put them back into contention in the HS section. I'd have Astral Aim allow the Purgation Squad to ignore LOS restrictions in return for weakening the weapons (to represent the rounds losing kinetic energy as they punch through walls/foliage/whatever).

 

Venerable Dreadnoughts are not a GK specific problem, but it still does need changing. For the same pricing, allow the Ven Dread to retain lost hull points on a save (4+ would be sufficient) instead of rerolling damage results. I'd also personally like to see Venerable Dreads emit an aura of courage (reroll failed morale checks). This would put them back in contention vs the normal dread IMO.

 

I'd have Psilencers work like a neural shredder (S=user's Ld, AP2, wound against Ld, not affect AV) and force Daemons to reroll their invulnerables against it. This would immediately give it a place vs the Psycannon, while not completely making the Psycannon obsolete (as the Psilencer wouldn't be able to deal with armor).

 

In general, I want to see the GK HQs start in PA and have the option to take personal teleporters so they can join up with Interceptor Squads. All the HQs besides the BrC having to be in TDA is a bit of a drag IMO.

 

The Temple Assassins need quite a few changes to cope with the new dynamics of 6th edition.

- Vindicare Assassins need some way to circumvent cover and a way to get around LO,S. Night Vision is a must, and replacing Stealth with Shrouded would probably be kosher. I'd say that all LO,S attempts only pass on a 5+, even for ICs. This would restore his role as a sniper (instead of the anti-tank gun he is right now).

- Callidus Assassins need to not use the Deep Strike rules to enter play. Right now, this means that she has to appear at the bottom level of ruins only, meaning that units in level 2 and above would be immune to her effects (completely idiotic given how she works in fluff). Polymorphine should ignore cover as well. Furthermore, she either needs improved survivability the turn she pops up or needs her ability to charge after entering play restored. The C'tan Phase Sword lost way too much power, she needs this restored to AP2. Otherwise, she just doesn't pose enough threat.

- Culexis Assassins are blanks... they should act like them. This random shooting ability they have is kind of stupid. Instead, let's have them reduce the Ld of all nearby units by 4 (in addition to removing Fearless and ignoring Stubborn) as well as give them an aura of immunity to psychic powers (friendly or enemy). I'd also give the Culexis Assassins the most flexibility in how they operate with Infiltrate, Stealth, and options for a 2 handed ranged weapon, a pistol and power weapon, or a super powerful 2 handed close combat weapon. Have them cause Fear as well to further simulate their blank nature.

- Eversor Assassins need a way to get into combat faster then a snail's pace.

[Aethernitas]

Brother Captain - Have him come with a Brotherhood Banner for free as part of his wargear, let him be able to exchange Terminator Armor for Artificier armor for free, and give him the option of taking a Personal Teleporter (when wearing AA) for +20 points

 

Apothecary - Drop cost to 65 points for upgrade (vice 75 points).

 

*Heavy Psycannon - Make it a S8 AP4, Heavy 1, Large Blast, Rending weapon.

 

*Inquisitors - Let the Henchman Warband they unlock be a Troops option (still only get one, unless they are Coteaz)

 

Really like those and the pointcost changes to Purifiers and Interceptors. What I didn't think of at all but I find extremely sweet are the options for personal teleporters for HQ characters =)

The Assassin changes sound cool too even though I see a problem with just "ignoring" LoS!

 

Mordrak needs to lose first to the fray to get independent character. I'd then make the Ghost Knights unique in that they are always joined to Mordrak and can never leave him, but Mordrak can still go join a squad (effectively adding 6 models at full price to whatever unit he joins). Look Out Sir attempts automatically pass and have to go to the Ghost Knights until they're gone, at which point LO,S works as normal.

 

Brother Captains would have to either get better in melee or provide a force multiplier unique to him. Thanks to the design philosophy used here, anything Brother Captains gain would have to go to Grand Masters too, so any changes have to be carefully considered here.

 

Crowe would instantly become amazing if he had IC status. Of course, any changes to him would probably also make his cleansing flame not rend, but give some to get some, right?

 

Techmarines need to become equivalent to all the other techmarines running around and be able to take Servitors, as well as be able to prevent them from mind-locking. I have no idea why the hell Techmarines can't do either.

 

Venerable Dreadnoughts are not a GK specific problem, but it still does need changing. For the same pricing, allow the Ven Dread to retain lost hull points on a save (4+ would be sufficient) instead of rerolling damage results. I'd also personally like to see Venerable Dreads emit an aura of courage (reroll failed morale checks). This would put them back in contention vs the normal dread IMO.

 

I'd have Psilencers work like a neural shredder (S=user's Ld, AP2, wound against Ld, not affect AV) and force Daemons to reroll their invulnerables against it. This would immediately give it a place vs the Psycannon, while not completely making the Psycannon obsolete (as the Psilencer wouldn't be able to deal with armor).

 

Like the Lo,S! idea with Mordrak but I disagree with the squad plus Ghostknights idea. I think with Brother Captains one could give them a ability that resembles Grand Strategy but is not as powerful and has some different effects to represent the more "in your face" role of BC on the battlefield. In my group of players we already play Crowe without rending flame - I think its just silly. I agree with both the Dreadnought (a 4+ invul-save maybe?) and the Techmarine.

 

OMG I would love to see psilencers reworked like that! It represents the fluff so very good but I guess it wouldn't work so well rules wise. At least not with some tweaks :)

 

edit: After overthinking the psilencers I think it wouldn't really work out. You can't allow characters with higher LD join the squad and on the other hand even with LD10 they would wound most elite armys on 4+ or 3+ max. AP2 is also too much. If even seriously thinking about an LD wounding mechanic the AP should be something like 6 or actually no AP at all...

[spartan249]

I just realized a problem with Psilencers (my version) + Culexis (my tweaks)... An army rolling stuff off the table, wounding on a 3+ with no armor saves allowed with 12~24 shots each squad... Yeah.

 

So maybe not neural shredder good, but something. 4+ vs everything unless Strength allows better would be sufficient to have it compete with the Psycannon (as long as the Psilencer is cheaper).

 

Neural Shredders have always been AP2, as a side note.

[Gentlemanloser]

Mordrak: Ghost Knights do not leave when Mordrak dies, they remain, protecting his wounded body from enemies.

 

Stern: Point reduction. Massively.

 

Crowe: Gains IC status. Loses givign enemy units rerolls and FC. Gains 1W (to 3), and an Attack stat that he can use instead of Master Swordsman.

 

Brotherhood Champion: Gains a second Wound. Has the option to purchase a P.T. Gains an Attack stat he can us instead of Master Swordsman.

 

Techmarine: Gains a second Wound.

 

Apothecary: Points reduction.

 

Purgator Squads: Nothing, see below. ;)

 

Brother Captain: Can TGS 1 unit.

 

Grand Msater: Can TGS 3 units.

 

 

All GK squads get the option to swap out thier second power (cannot swap out Hammerhand) for a BRB power roll.

[DinoDoc]

Mordrak - give him 'independent character'; keep ghostknight-retinue as option which takes his 'independent character'-rule and instead of stealth (makes no sense for me) give that squad 'counter-attack' or something along the lines to represent their urge for vengeance

Wouldn't the easiest and most effective change here be to allow range upgrades to the Ghost retinue?

[Aethernitas]

Mordrak - give him 'independent character'; keep ghostknight-retinue as option which takes his 'independent character'-rule and instead of stealth (makes no sense for me) give that squad 'counter-attack' or something along the lines to represent their urge for vengeance

Wouldn't the easiest and most effective change here be to allow range upgrades to the Ghost retinue?

 

You mean like beeing able to equip psibolters and stuff?

[adamv6]

The 'fluff' around Astral Aim has always driven me insane, especially so in 6th. As such, this would be my suggestion;

 

Astral Aim - Can Skyfire all assault weapons. Unit being fired at still gets 4+ cover save. Psycannons being fired are done so using the assault profile.

 

Mordrak needs 2 things IMHO. He needs IC and Eternal Warrior. I would write a rule in that you can only have Mordrak or Draigo, never both (even in 2K+ games). Put his cost up to 250 points.

 

Dreadnought - Able to take Gatling Psilencer on both arms. Lets me honest, he can grant reinforced aegis, so I am pretty sure he could handle dishing out enough psi-energy to power 2 Gatling Psilencer. I think this would also make people remember that dreadnoughts are brilliant at anti-personnel duties as well as just tank cracking with PsiRifles.

 

Brotherhood Champions - Gain a similar rule to Lucius in that when challenged he can use the opponents WS as his attack stats.

[himkano]

Purgator Squads

 

 

 

Mordrak - His "Ghost Knights" are not very "ghosty". If I was trying to balance him, I would start with the ghost knights -2+ armor with 3+ invulnerable save (storm shield equivalent), and give them a body-guard-like ability (as long as at least 1 ghost knight is alive, all hits that would be directed at Mordrak will instead be made against the closest ghost knight - including challenges). This would make eternal warrior moot. I would take away his power to create more ghosts (or make it automatic - something like, at the end of each turn, roll a d6, and on a 5+, another ghost knight comes to help), and I would say that as long as 1 ghost alive, no characters can join mordrak (once all the ghosts are dead, he becomes independent character). Maybe up the potential size of squad.

 

Stern - too expensive - other lists have characters that give re-rolls without giving enemy re-rolls, for cheaper. Zone of banishment - just make it effect demons, or maybe when he dies....

 

Crowe - should be IC.

 

Both Stern and Crowe are "squad leaders" according to fluff, but crowe can't lead, and no one wants to follow Stern into battle, never knowing when a rift is going to open near him and suck them in.

 

Brother captain - too close to chapter master, maybe drop another 25 points

 

Champions - I think these are ok, although I'll admit I never use them, because Inquisitors can do everything they can do, and more, for cheaper.

 

Techmarine - no problem. I know people want retinue, but most other tech marines are not IC, and I would rather put a techmarine with some GK than a bunch of servitors.

 

Apothecary - when I use Paladins, I use him, but could probably be 10-20 points cheaper (since we are already paying so much for the paladin in the first place)

 

Purgation Squad - sky-fire, of course (since we aren't likely to get missiles). I would say take away the line of sight thing, and make their power allow them to shoot from a different direction, similiar to the way barrage works. Something like picking a spot 12", and that is where the fire is coming from, for purposes of calculating cover saves (this would also make the incinerators act like heavy incinerators, allowing the template to come from 12")

 

I agree that all inquisitor forces should be troops when unlocked (either 1 unit per normal inquisitor or all units by coteaz)

I would also like to see inquisitors available as 2 for 1 HQ Slot (or maybe 3 for 1 Elite slot)

 

Maybe, to fix captains and champions, make champions an upgrade for Justicars, and Captains would fill the current champion role (although powers/costs for champions probably have to be tweaked)

 

Maybe give Dread Knights Sky fire - since they are supposed to fight demons (who are going to fly away) (this, along with making Gatling psi cannons damage VEHICLES with demon rule on a 4+, or even 1 or the other, would make me more seriously consider Gatling psycannons)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Mordrak

Crowe

 

Make them Independent Characters. It's so easy a fix you can do it with a pen in the army list entries. GW, step up your game.

 

Stern

 

Zone of Banishment only affects enemy models. Again, a typo fixed in seconds. I hate you GW. You took one of our coolest characters and made him the worst HQ by far.

 

Brother Captain

 

'Strategist' special rule. Same as 'The Grand Strategy', but only 1 unit in the army is affected, instead of D3.

 

Brotherhood Champion

 

If you bring one or more Knight units, he can be taken without filling a HQ slot. +1W, 4A base with the option of 'Perfect Warrior' special moves.

 

Techmarine

Apothecary

 

They're awesome, what are you smoking. Apothecary is even more worth it this edition, due to FNP being more applicable (it can save you from plasma now).

 

Purgator Squads

 

Psycannons go down to 10pts. 'Astral Aim' is changed, instead it grants them the 'Ignore Cover' special rule (this applies to attached characters as well).

 

 

Some additions I would make to the list;

 

Valeria: Just get rid of her

 

Hereticus+Xenos Inquisitors: They're terrible anyway, they make no sense, take them out

 

Venerable Dreadnought: Needs a price reduction

 

Temple Assassins: All Assassins have the 'Scout' and 'Infiltrate' special rules.

- Vindicare needs an AP3 melee weapon.

- Eversor: Neural gauntlet changed to AP2, no re-rolls to wound. Charge range is 12", never has to roll it. On death, S5 AP- small blast centred on him. Enemy gets +1VP if Eversor is alive by game end. You get +1VP if he is dead by game end.

- Callidus: Phase sword is AP2. Can charge from Reserve on the turn she arrives via Polymorphine.

- Culexus: Speculum range changes to 24", Assault 4

- Venenum: Phage-gun: Range 18", S1 AP2, Blast, Poisoned (3+), Rending Poisoned (2+) melee weapon, rad grenades, psychostroke grenades, blind grenades, replace 'Stealth' special rule with 'Shrouded'.

- Vanus: Enemy must re-roll all successful Reserve rolls, D3 enemy units count as being in difficult terrain on Turn 1. Special rule 'Infocyte': one friendly unit within 6" may re-roll failed rolls to hit and to wound. Combi-needler, needle rifle is range 36", S1 AP5, Sniper, Heavy 1

 

Thawn is 50 points

 

Strike/Interceptor/Purgation halberds are free, hammers and falchions are 5pts, incinerator is free, warding stave is 15pts on a Justicar

 

Land Raiders all replace twin heavy bolters with twin psycannons

[spartan249]

Uh... what? We already have it extremely good with most close combat upgrade prices. Halberds might be worth about 2~3 points instead of 5 on strikes/interceptors, but other then that, those suggestions are ridiculous.

 

I may agree with Ordo Hereticus stuff being kind of stupid, but Ordo Xenos has fun grenades and beamers bro. Both are very useful.

 

Ignoring Cover is a bit much on purgation squads... just ignoring LOS restrictions would be enough to put them back into contention (along with the standardized weapon pricing).

 

Most of those kinds of changes are a pipe dream... Probably never going to come true man.

[Gentlemanloser]

Strikes need Infiltrate (no transport) or Scout (with transport) and not Deep Strike.

 

It's the only way to let them fulfil thier 'fluff' role.

[Morollan]

- Vindicare Assassins need some way to circumvent cover and a way to get around LO,S. Night Vision is a must, and replacing Stealth with Shrouded would probably be kosher. I'd say that all LO,S attempts only pass on a 5+, even for ICs. This would restore his role as a sniper (instead of the anti-tank gun he is right now).

 

Not going to comment on most of the changes that are being proposed as they generally seem to be rather unbalancing and often attempt to fix things that aren't broken (at least not in the direction that some posters seem to think) but definitely agree on the above change. LO,S makes snipers in general completely redundant and whilst the Vindicare at least has his tankbusting to fall back on, most others do not.

[DinoDoc]

Mordrak - give him 'independent character'; keep ghostknight-retinue as option which takes his 'independent character'-rule and instead of stealth (makes no sense for me) give that squad 'counter-attack' or something along the lines to represent their urge for vengeance

Wouldn't the easiest and most effective change here be to allow range upgrades to the Ghost retinue?

 

You mean like beeing able to equip psibolters and stuff?

If that is a funny word for Psycannons, yes.

[Aethernitas]

If that is a funny word for Psycannons, yes.

 

Yes it is. The german name for the psycannon. I never understood the whacky german translation -.-

[Valerian]

Appreciate the good discussion going so far fellas. It seems like some of the recommendations might be going a little bit too far, however, and might perhaps make units too good (tipping them to out-of-balance in the other direction).

 

Anyway, just to add to the discussion, here are a few ideas that I've had for units, as well as comments and questions:

 

Teleport - Give all Grey Knights units the ability to Deep Strike via Teleportation. Most units already have the ability, but a handful of characters and units do not.

 

Servo Skulls - Change the rules such that they don't go away when approached by the enemy. Perhaps increase cost to 10 points each to off-set this. It would be nice to be able to make good use of them, and enable Grey Knights to be a more precision Deep Strike force (even if they can't assault from Deep Strike, etc.).

 

Mordrak - Would simply making him an Independent Character be enough? Would it tip the balance too far in the other direction? How would you integrate that with First to the Fray? For example, would this mean I could attach him to the hypothetical 10-man Paladin Squad and precision strike in the first turn a few inches behind the IG motor pool?

 

Crowe - Would simply making him an Independent Character fix the issues? I think that is definitely the first start, then would recommend a clarification for no Rending on his Cleansing Flame, give him 4 base Attacks to use in lieu of the Perfect Warrior, and clarify that Rapier Strike works against all Characters (not just Independent Characters) and Monstrous Creatures. Oh, and I'd put the Daemon Sword on his back (no change to granting those bonuses to enemy that charge him), and let him use an Anointed Blade. I think that would fix a few rules as well as fluff issues with him.

 

Brotherhood Champion - Move him to the Elite section. Give him 2 Wounds and 3 base Attacks to use in lieu of the Perfect Warrior, and clarify that Rapier Strike works against all Characters (not just Independent Characters) and Monstrous Creatures. Give him an option to take a Personal Teleporter for +30 points. Increase his base cost to about 125 to offset the improvements. This fixes some issues, puts him in a better slot, makes him a more attractive choice, while also making it feasible to transform Interceptors into a dedicated assault force, if he is attached.

 

Brother Captain - Give a choice between Terminator Armour and Articifer Armour. If in AA, give an option to take a Personal Teleporter for +30 points. This helps differentiate him vice Grand Master, and adds another path to making Interceptors into a more viable assault force.

 

Techmarine - Give him 2 Wounds and increase to 100 points base price.

 

Interceptor Squad - Give the Justicar an option to take a Teleport Homer (allows them to get into position, and then call in the rest of the force). Seems to make a hell of a lot more sense than giving it to the Purgation Squad's Justicar.

 

Purgation Squad - Cover Your Brothers: Maximum ranges for Storm Bolters, Psilencers, and Psycanons are increased to 36” in hands of Purgation Squad members when they remain stationary during the Movement phase. Perhaps treat Incinerators as firing like Heavy Incinerator when stationary, too. Automatic ability, not a psychic power.

 

Astral Aim: Little is hidden from the gaze of a Grey Knight Purgation Squad. Marshalling ancient sorceries, they can mystically guide their shots to the chosen target. This power can be used during the Grey Knights' Shooting phase. If the Psychic test is passed, the unit (and any accompanying character) can shoot at any enemy unit within range, even if they do not have line of sight to it or it is outside the distance they can see in a night fight. The target automatically has a 4+ Cover Save (which cannot be modified by any means) against this attack. Terrain that would normally give a better save, or special rules like Stealth that would normally improve a Cover Save do not work for units targeted by a Purgation Squad using Astral Aim. The squad cannot target an enemy unit that is embarked within a transport vehicle.

 

That's enough for now. I've still got to go back through and sift through some of the other posts.

 

Valerian

[Valerian]

- Vindicare Assassins need some way to circumvent cover and a way to get around LO,S. Night Vision is a must, and replacing Stealth with Shrouded would probably be kosher. I'd say that all LO,S attempts only pass on a 5+, even for ICs. This would restore his role as a sniper (instead of the anti-tank gun he is right now).

 

Not going to comment on most of the changes that are being proposed as they generally seem to be rather unbalancing and often attempt to fix things that aren't broken (at least not in the direction that some posters seem to think) but definitely agree on the above change. LO,S makes snipers in general completely redundant and whilst the Vindicare at least has his tankbusting to fall back on, most others do not.

 

I like this, too. Perhaps a compromise, like reducing LoS! attempt by 2, so when shot by a Vindicare and IC LoS! roll is successful on a 4+ (instead of 2+) and a regular character on a 6+.

 

V

[Valerian]

Strikes need Infiltrate (no transport) or Scout (with transport) and not Deep Strike.

 

It's the only way to let them fulfil thier 'fluff' role.

 

What about giving them a First to the Fray type of Deep Strike (land 1st Turn)? That would work as well as either Scout or Infiltrate, I should think. Especially if combined with Servo Skulls that don't disappear when the enemy gets too close.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Maybe instead of Infiltrate, sure. :P But it would be little help if they were in a Rhino/Razor! :)

 

Mordrak - Would simply making him an Independent Character be enough? Would it tip the balance too far in the other direction? How would you integrate that with First to the Fray? For example, would this mean I could attach him to the hypothetical 10-man Paladin Squad and precision strike in the first turn a few inches behind the IG motor pool?

 

It's not First that would be the issue, but rather his Retinue.

 

Add him to a 10 man GKT Squad, let him take a wound and bam, 11 Terminators. That now have Stealth. ;) Of if he's in a unit of DCA, and you spawn 3 GKT to add to them.

 

Personally, I love his spawn on a wound ability. fun, unique and useful. Lose them when he dies, by all means. Losing a squad you paid 200 points for when he dies, garbage. Utter tripe that should never have seen light of day.

[jeffersonian000]

All Mordrak needs to be functional is Eternal Warrior, or for all Special Characters to have a 2+ LoutS (rather than just ICs only). Mordrak is currently the only Special Character with a Thunderhammer that does not have ET or a Storm Shield. Granted, his Ghost retinue is his "Storm Shield", but they are not his "Eternal Warrior".

 

Stern should either be kept as is for 175pts, or have his Zone of Banishment should effect only enemies.

 

Brother Captains are fine, in my opinion, and maybe should just be reduce in price to 125pts.

 

Crowe really just need Eternal Warrior. His lack of IC fits his fluff, in my opinion.

 

Brotherhood Champions just need Rapier Strike errata to be usable versus any characters, ICs, and/or MCs.

 

Techmarine is fine, no changes needed.

 

Apothecary, 25pts cheaper.

 

Purgation Squads need Astral Aim to be useful, I'd like to see it errata'd to ignore all saves except Invul. Given all the limitation with their weapon choices as well as slot priority, this is a reason fix for their crap ability.

 

SJ

[boreas]

As of now, jeffersonian's propositions are the most reasonable. They are simple and easy, without distorting the obvious purpose of the original entry. I'd possibly add the option of a personnal teleporter to either the champion or the BC... Apart from that, I consider our codex pretty A1.

 

Phil

[thraxdown]

I agree with making wounds from the vindicare unable to be Los! Or at least more difficult to Los!

 

Paladins should be characters again. The new Los! Makes it where you can't shift wounds around to the whole squad anymore. Maybe a rule where you can only make a Los! For one model per phase, so there are no shenanigans. Since they are basically bodyguards it makes sense that they can all offer or accept a challenge. At the very least allow one model to be a character so they can challenge or precision shot like almost every other marine unit.

[spartan249]

Techmarines need servitors and the ability to prevent mindlock. This would make the horrendous implications of mindlock more manageable.

 

We can't just hand out eternal warrior like candy. It cheapens the special rule and is a crutch way of dealing with character design issues. Crowe needs to lose the stupid daemon weapon and become an IC. Problem instantly solved. Mordrak should let the ghost knights manifest as an elites choice that doesn't take up a slot and has the FTTF and Stealth rules. Then, have mordrak spawn more ghosts on a set roll every turn instead of when he takes wounds so you don't have to do suicide missions just to take advantage of ghost knights.