Gentlemanloser Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 EW on Crowe is kinda wasteful, as he only has 2W. I can't think of any other 2W Eternal Warriors in the game. Techmairnes are *too* expensive for a 1W model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3224721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 @spartan249 - So for Crowe what you effective mean is... Crowe needs to lose the key element of his backstory and become an IC. Problem instantly solved. :ermm: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3224725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 @spartan249 - So for Crowe what you effective mean is...Crowe needs to lose the key element of his backstory and become an IC. Problem instantly solved. <_< Love the delicate phrasing :) I agree - you can't take away the key element of a character. In Crowes case you would pretty much have a W2 Brotherhood Champ... which I think would be a reasonable change for all BCs anyway. Brotherhood Captain is NOT fine imo. Normally it's quite hard to compare the net utility of units but the GM and the BC are so similar that for me it seems kinda obvious that the point costs just don't add up. I really like the Idea to either give the GM fixed grand strategy for 3 units and the BC the same for just one OR some other ability to reflect his role as battlefield leader. As of now, jeffersonian's propositions are the most reasonable. I don't agree. Eternal warrior for each and everyone as well as purgation squads ignoring cover and armour saves sounds not very sophisticated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3224784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Yes, you can read between the lines. I think Crowe needs to be completely reworked in terms of fluff, as it's stupidity incarnate. Doesn't work when you try to protect a "key element" when it's a heaping pile of refuse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3224795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 As of now, jeffersonian's propositions are the most reasonable. I don't agree. Eternal warrior for each and everyone as well as purgation squads ignoring cover and armour saves sounds not very sophisticated. I misread the Purgation Squad thing.. I thought he said ignore cover saves, which would be good. The EW, I find ok. EW is just another special rule, like Rage or Slow and Purposeful. It doesn't have that special aura anymore and can be given around like any other SR. It's a great rule to offset some of the disadvantages of not having IC on a character (like character sniping, which is wayyyy too easy on a lone character). Mordrak and Crowe shouldn't lose IC. It would not only break the the fluff, it would break the way they were specifically designed. Some might not like the fluff with Crowe, but that's the way he is, so not much that can be done about that. And putting him in a unit would be stupidly good. Same for the possibility to have Mordrak as an IC (and thus bombing that deathstar Paladin squad on turn one with no drawback whatsoever). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3224811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I did say that FTTF had to go. Just have the ghosts do it, since they can't do jack on the drop. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3224825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 The EW, I find ok. EW is just another special rule, like Rage or Slow and Purposeful. It doesn't have that special aura anymore and can be given around like any other SR. [...] Some might not like the fluff with Crowe, but that's the way he is, so not much that can be done about that. And putting him in a unit would be stupidly good. Same for the possibility to have Mordrak as an IC (and thus bombing that deathstar Paladin squad on turn one with no drawback whatsoever). Eternal warrior has become "just another special rule" cuz of the fact that GW kinda handed it out like candy. As far as I'm concerned they should slowly try and make it something special (cuz it is -and mighty too) again. In fact they semm to try that already cuz as recall correctly the Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldar each have only ONE eternal warrior character and the Necrons lack any of those. A step in the right direction. I personally really like the fluff surrounding Crowe as for me there really is a (ingame fluff) logic to giving a seductive deamon weapon to someone utterly uncorruptable to keep it (or actually all the others) safe. I also agree it's not as easy as jsut giving IC to Crowe and Mordrak and there have to be some other slight changes to make them work and not snowball out of balance. That said I think Crowe could really work as IC with minor changes like taking the rending from his cleansing flame (utterly stupid anyway). Mordrak on the other hand would imo need some major overhaul. edit: What does "FTTF" mean? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3224841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 edit: What does "FTTF" mean? First To The Fray Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3224844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 First To The Fray aah thx :) I think some kind of FTTF option should go to the Brother Captain as his own lil Grand Strategy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3224847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I personally really like the fluff surrounding Crowe as for me there really is a (ingame fluff) logic to giving a seductive deamon weapon to someone utterly uncorruptable to keep it (or actually all the others) safe. Apologies, mini rant incoming. ;) Crowes' fluff is stupid. It's nonsenesical and isn't internally consistent. The premis isn't too bad. Undestructable uber evil daemon weapon, can only be safely held by the most uncorruptable of uncorruptable Grey Knights. And this is where is starts to fall down. First, if you're uncorruptable, you're uncorruptable. No need to add shades of grey to an absolute. Actualy, it's not possible to add shades of grey to an absolute like this. Next, the Grey Knights aren't the Paladins in space most expect. They're not the Silver Knights. ;) They are utterly pragmatic, and will do anything to get the job done. Like murder a bunch on innocent SoB, for example. Why am I mentioning this? Well, the sheer folly of allowing Crowe to leave Titan. Crowe has a weapon in hand the he must resist and contest with every second of every day. And only he can do so. If he fails, not only will the Sword corrupt the rest of the Gry Knights around it (that's why only Crowe can hold it...) but it actively draws warp entities and cultists to it. Yet the GK allow him to jaunt off to the depts of space, with a hadful of battle brothers, where a stray lascannon to the head ends any hope the GK have of controlling said sword. Prognosticaor: Castellan, we have scoured the Emperors Tarrot and Abbaddon will try to break though again, here, at this time. Crowe: I will gather 20 of my Purifiers, and travel to the edge of the galaxy to stop him. No. The Grey Knights would sollemly task Crowe with holding the blade, and then lock him in the depths of Titan for eternity. In a statis field. Or a Dreadnought when his astartes body fails (if ever). I'm assuming that being based on the Emperors gene seed, like the Astartes of old, GK are ageless. And *that* scarifice, taking the purest Purifier the GK have, and sealing him away for eternity to safeguard the most potent daemonweapon in existence, *that* is a story worth telling. Not having Crowe run off to be killed and allow the sword to fall into the hands of the enemy. And lastly, there is *no* reason for Crowe to actually use the blade in combat. None. He would have an Annointed Blade, just like every other Brotherhood Champion, if not a better, named, version, becuase he's not only the head of the Purifier Brotherhood, but thier Champion as well. He's the most uncorruptable GK and the Brotherhood Champion to end all Champion. He. Would. Not. Use. A. Daemonblade. In. Combat. Ever. If the fluff was that the only way to control the Blade was to feed it (more shades of Grey), then he *still* wouldn't be allowed out to do so in battles. He would (like another parrallel to the Emperor) still be locked away, and like Psychers fed tot he Golden Throne, sacrifices would be bought to him, and the blade satisfied that way. No, Crowes' fluff is rubbish. totaly up there with the unbeleivability of Draigo. And not fitting for the Grey Knights. Phew, rant off. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3225135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Apologies, mini rant incoming. ;) Bracing myself... Phew, rant off. ;) well... that wasn't so bad. I totally agree with you about all of the mentioned points and giant plotholes. Thing is that I realized I haven't really thought it through besides him beeing the 'keeper of the cursed sword'. Anyway - I still like the underlying idea and I wish it could be fixed in a way it makes sense. If that means Crowe is not playable anymore and we get someone else instead that would be okay for me. btw Crowes fluff is still nowhere near that :P :P of :cuss which Draigos fluff represents... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3225284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Draigo: I'm-a gonna go punch Khorne in the Face! Yee Haw!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3225303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 The only thing missing to Crowe's fluff is a legitimate reason for him to carry the sword around. If, for some reason, that sword leached other demonic thing's power and might go critical (thus exploding Titan), Crowe might have to bring it away every once in a while. If that weapon was the key to bringing Draigo back once and for all, Crowe might try to go around and use it to open a door for the Supreme Grand Master. Etc. Apart from that, I find Crowe a perfectly playable character, with nice bonuses and difficult drawbacks, the way SCs are meant to be in my opinion. "Generic" HQ are more balanced (with less extreme bonus-drawbacks). Same for Mordrak. SCs being less than optimal (WAAC-wise) are a good way to not have them in EVERY game! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3225322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I wasn't suggesting giving out ET like candy, I stated that in my opinion, Mordrak is lacking one or two abilities normally found on Special Characters that are armed with Initiative 1 weapons: good invul save and Eternal Warrior. His Ghost Knights were obviously intended to be his "good invul save", however, Mordrak is not an IC and there for does not have a 2+ LoutS. 4+ LoutS is not a "good invul save". Lack of ET means he is vulnerable to getting crushed in challenges, which defeats the whole purpose behind have Ghost Knights defend him in the first place. It really does look like Special Characters were supposed to have the same LoutS as ICs, but the ball got dropped. Regardless, not have ET is a huge handicap for an initiative 1 Special Character with a potential 320pt retinue to dies with him. As to Crowe, again, he is a Special Character that lacks basic defense found in all Special Characters. No "good invul save", cannot be LoutS'd. Can die too quickly and has only a miner chance to take his opponent with him. There are cheaper SCs out there that guarantee a kill when they die, some of which even come back to life. Crowe is fine with his lack of IC status if and only if he can survive without an extra wound pool to draw from, which he totally lacks at the moment. As to Astral Aim, it’s "Zen Archery". They fire into the air, and then their rounds fall onto target. Yet their rounds do not ignore cover, while oddly providing cover. If their 4+ provided cover save replace any cover save and was unmodifiable, that would be one thing. If their psychically guided rounds sot weakness (another "Zen Archery" trait), it would be another thing. I'm just recommending for Astral Aim to allow targets to only be able take a unmodifiable 4+ cover save regardless of armor (invul still applies as normal). That makes Astral Aim worth taking. As it current stands, Astral Aim is situationally useless. As to Techmarines, Servitors are failed Marines candidates (mostly). Failed GK candidates die, meaning no servitors. Do you want broken, mindless Psykers attached to heavy weaponry running around loose? I don’t! I mean yes, servitors armed with Psycannons or Silencers sounds good in theory, but not so much in fluff, and this is a fluff driven game (despite what the RAW crew has to say). SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3226683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 ... servitors come from any human who otherwise couldn't serve the imperium. They don't have to be marines (reference the T3 servitors in this very codex). It's not a matter of fluff, it's a matter of :lol: common sense. Consistency across all servants of the AdMech would be nice for freaking once. There is no risk associated with servitors. They become inert and lack any will. Only certain very powerful psykers can control them, and they would probably just control the grey knights instead of derp servitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3226719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 What I find interesting is that, although we haven't yet come to consensus on exactly how to fix them, there does seem to be a consensus being established for those units that really could use some work. There are several options that are clearly out-of-balance and that are suboptimal for army list inclusion. Fortunately, there is more than enough "good" in the current codex to make up for the "poor" design, and plenty of ways to create strong and fun, yet varied, armies. However, I would hope that someone out there is paying attention and taking notes, so that improvements are made and a better product is the end result with the next release (years away though it will be). So, back to Mordrak, how about this: Independent Character that can only attach to Ghost Knights, but other IC's can't also attach. Ghost Knights get all of the options as standard Terminators, but come with the Stealth special rule (or, hell, maybe even Shrouded - since they are Ghosts, after all). Characterful, useful, but without going over the top? V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3227139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Anything really. As long as you don't lose 200 points of minis when Mordrak dies. There is no other unit in game that has such a massive downside. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3227258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Just take FTTF out, make him IC, and have Ghost Knights as a seperate command squad like selection of modified terminators. All problems solved. It's freakin Ward making :cuss rules to try to represent a somewhat interesting concept. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3227304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 But FTTF is cool, fun to use, flavorful, and worth the extra points Mordrak costs over a regular GM. If Mordrak had ET or a 2+ LoutS, I'd be totally happy with him. As it stands in 6th, with Challenges and blast-marker-sniping, his 4++ save and 4+ LoutS just don't cut it for an Initiative 1 Special Character with a retinue that mass suicides when he gets crushed. Back in 5th, Mordrak could hide in his squad, as he was "just" an upgrade character. But in 6th, Mordrak lacks the ability to survive a str 8 AP 2 hit that every other Initiative 1 SC can. If your dice are hot, he's safe. If not, you are out 400pts. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3227315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monodominant Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I agree... Mordak doesnt need IC status... it needs either an extra rule saying he cant be targetted until his BODYGUARDS die or Eternal Warrior and 2+ Look out sir. And that is all! The problem with Crowe is that he is a BrotherHood Champion that cant help his friends like a normal Brotherhood Champion can... if the rule Brotherhood Champion rule that is like a chaplain was given ala bubble instead of to the unit he is joined I guess we could have him walking along... now he pays points for abilities he cant use... That along with the fact of that in 6th you pile-in in steps means that he can at most get -1- attack ON THE CHARGE... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3227346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 FTTF is the reason why the Ghost Knights can't have anything good. Without FTTF, Ghost Knights could have Psycannons/Incinerators, which would immediately put them in contention. As it is, FTTF is cute, but ultimately inconsequential and detrimental to the options that the Ghost Knights are allowed to have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3227349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 The only real change I'd make is to make Henchmen FOC choices when taken as Troops with Coteaz. I'd quite like to be able to build an Inquisitorial army with Coteaz at it's head but as Henchmen don't take up a Force Organisation slot, they still can't fulfil the compulsory Troops choices in any army ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3227384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Uh... what? That's old news, they take up slots. Reference the FAQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3227388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Uh... what? That's old news, they take up slots. Reference the FAQ. Indeed you're right, I hadn't realised. I don't get to check the FAQ's often; I have 3 kids, a disabled wife and a degree to study for. You'll forgive me if I'm a little behind with the times. Thanks for the information. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3227394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 FTTF is the reason why the Ghost Knights can't have anything good. Without FTTF, Ghost Knights could have Psycannons/Incinerators, which would immediately put them in contention. As it is, FTTF is cute, but ultimately inconsequential and detrimental to the options that the Ghost Knights are allowed to have. I really was hoping we could figure out a way to fix Mordrak without having to ditch FTTF, since I personally think that is a pretty nifty ability, however, I think you've got me convinced that it just has to go. That certainly would resolve the biggest issues. So, Mordrak becomes an IC, loses FTTF. Ghost Knights stay as an option, but now get all options that other GKT get. Ghosts Knights no longer disappear when Mordrak is removed as a casualty (they stick around to protect him, or his remains until the battle is over), and still generate new members if he takes Wounds. Ghosts Knights have the Shrouded special rule. Fair and Balanced now, while still unique and in keeping with his fluff? V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/page/2/#findComment-3228079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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