Blast weapon question

[RastlinD]

Today while playing a game I fired a long range range battle cannon shot. I could only see one model however the shot scattered and ended up hitting four other models too. My question is two fold, 1st what cover save could all of these models claim since I could only see one model and did not elect to focus fire. The second part is could these four models all die. I am familiar with only being able to kill what you can see, however the blast weapon entry states that it can scatter and hit models not in line of sight. Thanks for helping clear up this 6th edition question.

[Seahawk]

1. See #2.

 

2. Page 16, specifically OUT OF SIGHT.

 

The long and short is, you can't kill what you can't see. Just because Blasts can hit stuff out of LoS, that doesn't mean they can kill those models. Basically, you're just producing extra chances of killing the few you can see.

[jeffersonian000]

Blasts can scatter on to models not in LoS as well as out of range, and still hit every model covered by the blast marker. Cover save is given based of the direction the shot came from. However, if the blast was a barrage, then cover is only counted as if the shot came from the center of the blast marker, meaning that only area terrain or going to ground can provide cover from a barrage.

 

SJ

[dswanick]

RAW - Models out of LOS can be hit, can be wounded, but can't be removed as casualties.

RAI - GW makes it pretty clear That they think a scattering heavy weapons shell is perfectly capable of killing dudes the firer can't see.

 

House rule - my group has house ruled it that a scattering shot can kill dudes out of LOS, but those dudes get a +1 to whatever cover save they are eligible for (to appease the WAAC RAWists).

[Raeven]

Not to start this debate again, but where do you come up with the concept that you can wound a unit out of sight, but cannot remove them as a casualty? Wounds = 0 = removed as casualty.

 

Here is how Blast works in the group I game with.

 

You set your blast marker centered over a single enemy visible to firer, then roll for scatter and move marker accordingly, and count up number of hits as normal. (pg 33)

 

You then start allocating wounds to the model closest to the firer, regardless of whether the model is out of sight and regardless of where the blast marker landed. If wounds are reduced to 0, remove as casualty. (pg 15)

 

Blast specifically states that it can wound models out of sight and out of range "In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat)", it is an advanced rule that overrides Out of Sight on pg 16 (pg 7).

 

 

Cover saves are less cut and dry. Models out of sight get a cover save. I would call it just a 6+, unless they are in area terrain or garner cover from some other bonus.

[Seahawk]

Well, except that it says "Any unsaved Wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack."

 

You cannot allocate wounds on models out of LoS and thus they cannot die, as per my first post.

[Raeven]

Yes, you can. Blast says so. Out of Sight is a seperate rule which, as I showed above, is overridden by Blast in situations when the models are out of sight.

 

Wound allocation states nothing about line of sightm just the order in which wounds are allocated and how saves are handled. Out if Sight is an exception rule to the normal wound allocation which, again, blast overrides being an advanced rule.

[Calnus]

I can't recall where in the rules I read this, but at some point I remember seeing a blurb about cover to models that are partially or completely out of LoS being a 5+. I know its bad practice to follow when I can't even remember whether it was under cover, blasts, or some other section, but if I'm recalling it correctly, that would cover the possibility of assigning wounds to models that the firing unit cannot see (usually via blasts or things like Soul Blaze).

 

So while I agree with how Raeven plays it, I really think he should be giving the typical 5+ cover save when models are out of LoS (unless they are blocked by ruins or part of the board, then its a 4+ per the obscured rules)

[Kierdale]

So long as there is at least one model in LOS then you can shoot at the enemy unit.

However page 16 clearly states models out of LOS cannot have wounds allocated to them.

Wounds must be allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

If there are no visible models then all remaining wounds are lost.

 

So...

Your target unit has six models in it. Five out of LOS, one in LOS.

Your blast is centered on the one visible guy. It scatters off him and onto the other six.

You roll to wound. Lucky you: six wounds.

Now, these six wounds can't be allocated to those six guys because you can't see them, as per page 16.

Thus the one visible guy is allocated six wounds.

Let's say he saves one, fails the second one and dies.

Four wounds remain...and are lost.

 

Right?

[Seahawk]

Right, because even though Blasts can hit and wound models out of LoS they are still bound by the normal shooting rules, which say that models out of LoS cannot be allocated unsaved wounds.

[pyroknight]

This has been debated before.

 

The end result is that the RAW is flaky and everyone must house rule it. (And before you tell me how perfectly clear it is, look above at all the people arguing against you.)

 

My group has chosen a rule similar to dswanick. You should discuss your opinion on the ruling before you play an opponent.

[Raeven]

The only problem with the argument that RAW is flaky is the advanced rule that says, "In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight."

 

Normal is only referring to wound allocation and casualty removal. Out of Range, Out of Sight, and Instant Death are modifiers to the normal rule, not part of the main rule itself. Exceptions to the norm, not the norm. Blast tells you back to back in the same sentence, hits are worked out *as normal* and that you can hit and wound Out of Range and Out of Sight.

[dswanick]

Blast tells you back to back in the same sentence, hits are worked out *as normal* and that you can hit and wound Out of Range and Out of Sight.

Yes, but what it doesn't say is that you can allocate those wounds to models out of line of sight. Go back to the shooting phase rules, read them thoroughly and at each step ask yourself "does permission to hit and to wound models out of line of sight matter at this step?". When you reach the rules for allocating wounds you will find yourself being instructed to allocate wounds to models in line of sight with no permission to do so.

[Raeven]

If that is true, then blasts cannot hit friendly units, hit units tied up in close combat, or hit units out of range.

[dswanick]

If that is true, then blasts cannot hit friendly units, hit units tied up in close combat, or hit units out of range.

Blasts can hit those units. Blasts can wound those units. Blasts don't allow the wounds to be allocated to those units. There is a difference between hitting and wounding those units and hitting and wounding (as defined on Pgs.14&15 of the BRB).

[Seahawk]

Exactly the point I was making, dswanick. The extra hits and wounds simply mean that the dudes you are allowed to allocate unsaved wounds to are more likely to die, a good repesentation of blasts.

[Venemox]

So, if my blast template lands Out of Range, then I can rack up extra 'hit and wounds' to make it more likely to kill a unit I cannot allocate any wounds to?

[Raeven]

Yep. Don't forget to roll all the hits and wounds on the unit that you can't even see, that the blast managed to scatter over, as well.

[Morollan]

Ah, the good old OR forum!

 

Most people, when reading this:

 

Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond the weapon's maximum or minimum range and line of sight. This represents the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random events. In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat)

 

will simply roll for scatter, roll to wound and remove casualties as that is absolutely, positively, clearly the intent. Here in the OR though we can't possibly be that sensible and we get into the situation where "Blasts can hit those units. Blasts can wound those units. Blasts don't allow the wounds to be allocated to those units."

 

Now I don't mind that for the purposes of debate but there seem to be one or two people here who actually think that this is what they are supposed to do, rather than a somewhat strange quirk of a poorly thought out sentence.

 

And that really boggles my mind. :)