Axe v. Force Stave?

[Haranin]

For Librarian in termie armor...

 

Is the increased str or ap more important?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Considering it's a force weapon I would say that AP is more important so it can kill characters in 2+ save. But that's just my opinion.

[JamesI]

Having used both, I would always chose the axe when I can.

[march10k]

Generally the axe...if the stave were AP3, then yeah. That said...I did insta-gib a nemesis dreadknight with a stave...S6 is nice for beating on tanks, too!

[IndigoJack]

I would have to disagree with the axe. I think the axe is the worst of the three choices for a DA librarian. Our librarians are I5, one higher than any other librarian. It's one of the reason our libbies are more expensive. Personally, I prefer the stave. With 3 attacks (one higher than other librarians too) wounding MEQ on a 2+ has a decent change of causing an unsaved wound.

[pueriexdeus]

I would have to disagree with the axe. I think the axe is the worst of the three choices for a DA librarian. Our librarians are I5, one higher than any other librarian. It's one of the reason our libbies are more expensive. Personally, I prefer the stave. With 3 attacks (one higher than other librarians too) wounding MEQ on a 2+ has a decent change of causing an unsaved wound.

I will concur with "IndigoJack", the Stave is a much better weapon in "I". The Stave has a higher S and forces an "I" Zero on the OP. S6 vs. S5, is a much better option. Considering that many IC's have Eternal Warrior, a Force Weapon is practically useless. So the more S the better.

[Brother Immolator]

I would have to disagree with the axe. I think the axe is the worst of the three choices for a DA librarian. Our librarians are I5, one higher than any other librarian. It's one of the reason our libbies are more expensive. Personally, I prefer the stave. With 3 attacks (one higher than other librarians too) wounding MEQ on a 2+ has a decent change of causing an unsaved wound.

 

+1 The staff is also concussive, so guess what will happen in a challenge. Its a mini thunderhammer for all I care. Plus a Libby is too much of an investment to loose due to initiate reasons (more so when he haves an already high value). Think this from a company masters perspective: Have you ever fielded one with a powerfist? If not why?

[FerociousBeast]

In a discussion of the Force Weapon's Instant Death ability, Concussive is a bit of a red herring. You need to wound to stun, and if you wound you're usually going to be activating your Force Weapon. So Concussive would only be of benefit in a challenge if you fail the psychic test, the opponent is Eternal Warrior, or if you've already used all your psychic powers for a turn. Not saying these situations would never happen, they certainly will, but I don't think Concussive is a reason to pick the Force Stave over the Force Axe.

 

As for the other benefits, we can solve them with math.

 

Versus MEQ (wound chance x chance to fail armor save):

Axe -- 3/4 x 1 = 3/4 (75%)

Stave -- 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/18 (28%)

 

Versus Terminator:

Axe -- 3/4 x 2/3 (inv save) = 1/2 (50%)

Stave -- 5/6 x 1/6 = 5/36 (14%)

 

Versus T3 4+:

Axe -- 5/6 x 1 = 5/6 (83%)

Stave -- 5/6 x 1 = 5/6 (83%) (and causes Instant Death)

 

Versus Ork:

Axe -- 3/4 x 1 = 3/4 (75%)

Stave -- 5/6 x 1 = 5/6 (83%)

 

So against Orks and GEQ, the Stave is slightly better, while against everything else, the Axe is much superior. Therefore the Axe is better overall for causing wounds. Again, keep in mind this is a pure damage comparison. The wielder of the Axe still has to survive to the Initiative 1 step.

 

The Stave might come in handy against Monstrous Creatures with poor armor saves, though. MCs are such a mixed bag, though, that it's hard to run the numbers for them in any meaningful way.

[Brother Immolator]

Problem is, how are you going to compete with high I units with an axe? In such situations its I and N# of attacks that count not the ap. And frankly I believe that three attacks from a I5 ap4 power weapon are going to score a wound at MEQ, after all that 25% is 25 x3 dice rolls not a single time and before the enemy swings. On the other hand if the libby has an axe, and you are been hit by a chaos sorcerer with a force sword lets say, he has also the same chances of cutting open the libby because he can strike 3 times first.

 

Simply put, the librarian can and must act as a challenge buffer with a staf, IMHO among his other duties, in a terminator unit. The rest of them can and will be dealt with some powerfisting-hammering.

[Gillyfish]

To my mind, an important question is what is your foe and what unit will be supporting your libbie?

 

If you have a squad terminators with power fists and/or hammers then the axe becomes less useful and the stave more attractive (as you may want to have a chance to reduce the number of incoming attacks before you get to hit back). In addition, if you're expecting lots of PA or terminator opponents then the axe may be the better choice. Another consideration would be whether you want the libbie to fight any challenges - that's likely to be highly circumstantial though.

 

At the moment, I'm leaning towards the staff for the increase in strength at I. I'll have to give axes a go though and see whether I like them.

[IndigoJack]

In a discussion of the Force Weapon's Instant Death ability, Concussive is a bit of a red herring. You need to wound to stun, and if you wound you're usually going to be activating your Force Weapon. So Concussive would only be of benefit in a challenge if you fail the psychic test, the opponent is Eternal Warrior, or if you've already used all your psychic powers for a turn. Not saying these situations would never happen, they certainly will, but I don't think Concussive is a reason to pick the Force Stave over the Force Axe.

 

As for the other benefits, we can solve them with math.

 

Versus MEQ (wound chance x chance to fail armor save):

Axe -- 3/4 x 1 = 3/4 (75%)

Stave -- 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/18 (28%)

 

Versus Terminator:

Axe -- 3/4 x 2/3 (inv save) = 1/2 (50%)

Stave -- 5/6 x 1/6 = 5/36 (14%)

 

Versus T3 4+:

Axe -- 5/6 x 1 = 5/6 (83%)

Stave -- 5/6 x 1 = 5/6 (83%) (and causes Instant Death)

 

Versus Ork:

Axe -- 3/4 x 1 = 3/4 (75%)

Stave -- 5/6 x 1 = 5/6 (83%)

 

So against Orks and GEQ, the Stave is slightly better, while against everything else, the Axe is much superior. Therefore the Axe is better overall for causing wounds. Again, keep in mind this is a pure damage comparison. The wielder of the Axe still has to survive to the Initiative 1 step.

 

The Stave might come in handy against Monstrous Creatures with poor armor saves, though. MCs are such a mixed bag, though, that it's hard to run the numbers for them in any meaningful way.

Concussive is a red herring, but not for the reasons you gave. Your I5, and unless your opponent is also, you're always going to strike first. With the great options available for psykers now combined with the fact that our libby only has one warp charge, we're rarely going to activate our force weapons. Most of our psychic power options are better force multipliers than the force weapon.

 

You're not counting number of attacks into this, which will help put those numbers in perspective. With 3 attacks (assuming the libby didn't get the charge) He has a 56% chance to land an unsaved wound. Against WS4 MEQ, 42% against WS5. Against TEQ, It goes down to 28% vs. WS4 and 21% vs WS5. If you have prescience cast on yourself, these numbers will be higher. True, the axe will do better but the point is the stave and sword strike before the axe. That's the advantage of the sword and stave over the axe. Axe vs PF/TH means you're probably going to die and you might take them with you. With Axe vs Axe it comes down to who rolls better. If it comes down to dice rolls, I'd rather take the chance and try to kill my opponent before he kills me. Against GEQ (and orks) the stave actually performs better than the math hammer reflects. Sure, both kill about the same number but the stave does it before they can, meaning you'll take less damage when the strike.

[elphilo]

After trying both out I kind of surprised my self with liking the staff more than the axe. I really did like the S6 at I5 than the S5 at I1. The axe is probably better in the long run, but I just liked him striking at that high initiative. Mainly because in my Deathwing lists I have Belial with TH/SS, so instead of giving up two HQ slots to have a low initiative I only gave up one. And on that note, I don't think you can just look at the Librarian weapon load out in a vacuum. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see a Librarian as that powerhouse HQ choice, I see him as a support. While he might be able to take down a big baddie, that isn't his job. His job is to buff/debuff. So in order to really choose his load out you need to take a step back and see what niche he needs to fill in combat, does he need to be that high initiative striker or does he need some anti MEQ stuff? At least that's how I approach the weapon choices for a Librarian. The only downside to the DA Librarian is he is Mastery Level 1, so he can't really fulfill that support role as well as he should be able to.

[Tamwulf]

Due to the Mastery Level of 1 on our Librarians, I haven't fielded a DA Librarian yet- but that will change when I get my Gunslinger squad finished.

 

My gut tells me the Staff is the way to go. The things you will be challenged by, or getting into a challenge with, are I5+, have invulnerable saves, or a I1 attack. They usually have two out of those three. The AP value on the Axe is it's most appealing feature, but don't get trapped by it. It's unwieldy, so you'll be going at I1 along with all those Power Fists that will instakill the DA Libby (no invulnerable save for us). At best, you will kill each other (he with a P-fist, you with an axe). At worst, you'll die to some Lightning Claw or Power Weapon armed Sergeant or high initiative special character.

 

The strength of the weapons should have little bearing on vehicle assaults. Meltabombs cost nothing and are much, much better vs. vehicles.

 

The higher initiative on the staff gives you some flexibility- you'll strike first at I7, and then all it takes is one failed armor save from your 4-5 attacks (3 base, +1 for BP/Staff, +1 for charge). THEN it's a quick LD test of 9 or less if you haven't already burned off your Warp Charge this turn...

 

;) Wait a minute. Why is your Librarian in a challenge to begin with?!?!

[librisrouge]

In all seriousness, the Force Sword that Ezekiel already comes with is the clear winner.

 

Between the options presented though, I'd choose the Axe. Terminator armor makes you very hard to kill baring AP2 weapons, which are very rare in CC. This means that you'll almost always get to swing back. That in mind, the AP2 means you can take down just about anything.

[FerociousBeast]

Concussive is a red herring, but not for the reasons you gave. Your I5, and unless your opponent is also, you're always going to strike first.

Yeah, for two to four more months. When the imminent DA dex does drop, count on your Librarian going I4 like all the rest. I wouldn't base many conversions on an I5 at this point...

 

Concussive is a red herring, but not for the reasons you gave. Your I5, and unless your opponent is also, you're always going to strike first. With the great options available for psykers now combined with the fact that our libby only has one warp charge, we're rarely going to activate our force weapons. Most of our psychic power options are better force multipliers than the force weapon.

So... your point is actually that Concussive is not a red herring at all, but a definite benefit on a Force Weapon, given the fact that DA libbies won't often have any Warp Charge left to spend. A valid point. However, Concussive still isn't worth that much. Let's assume a number of different scenarios:

 

1) Librarian w/ Stave and higher initiative than opponent. He strikes first, causes a wound, and ... the opponent strikes second, just like he would have anyway. Stave is therefore of no benefit in a challenge, and of only occasional benefit in those rare combats with several multi-wound opponent models and several I4 allies.

 

2) Librarian w/ Stave and equal initiative to opponent. Both strike at the same time, resolve wounds etc. If the enemy takes a wound AND both survive, next round he'll strike at I1.

 

3) Librarian w/ Stave and lower initiative than opponent. If the Librarian survives his opponent's attacks, and then goes on to wound but not kill his opponent, next round he'll strike at I1.

 

WAY too many requirements for each scenario to make the Stave generally more useful than the Axe.

 

I say this regretfully, as I really want to like the Stave/Mace. I put a Power Mace on my DA Master, after all, and really like the conversion. I just don't see the benefit over the Axe or even the Sword against the majority of enemies you're likely to face.

 

You're not counting number of attacks into this, which will help put those numbers in perspective.

I don't count attacks because they're equal for both weapons. Yes, the Mace's attacks will thin out attackers before they get a chance to hit, but as the numbers show we're talking about 1, maybe 2, enemy models. Negligible when comparing the two weapons.

[pueriexdeus]

I am hearing lots of talk about the op striking after he receives a wound from a Libbi Stave. Doesn't Concussive prevent that?

 

***edit SP***

[Brother Immolator]

Concussive turns the opponents I to 1 after they have been hit once. Think of it as if it was a TH without the PF rules but a set of its own.

[FerociousBeast]

Unsaved wound, actually. Not just a hit.

[Brother Immolator]

Unsaved wound, actually. Not just a hit.

 

Thats what I meant, I just didnt elaborate.