The real problem with the Chaos Space Marines Codex

[Wolf Lord Fenrir]

This could potentially be the theme for 6th Edition. Codex books that are not that good on their own, but when combined with another Codex, they become very, very good.

 

6th edition IS the crutch edition.

[the jeske]

and you can enjoy 6th more than 5th, but it is hardly better

You mean in your opinion? :D

no in general . if it was "infinitly" better then you wouldnt have treads about necron scyth wing , 2 errates of characters in 2 months , GW people telling us that chaos will be realy awesome when we can start playing it against 3-4 other 6th ed dex.

 

What I mean about may not have is that if you are facing an "Over Powered Army List", you can theoretically take allies or another detachment to even the playing field and bring your army up to at least the same level of power as your opponent's.

 

only If I can take IG ally and SW can take IG ally , SW are not a 6th ed dex[and wont be for a very long time] have more and better options AND they have IG as brothers , then SW which have the same game play as chaos are a clearly better dex.

there is no leveling of field , if SW do the same stuff as we [including taking an ally] , only better.

 

If necron can build a mindless list and play it and chaos cant ,and necrons are realy not going to get an update soon , then I see a big difference of power between those two . chaos did absolutly nothing to level the playing thing for flyers as our flyers suck at anti aircraft and flakk costs too much and is too easy to counter for the points we can invest in to havocks without making them cost too much.

 

One can claim that chaos is a good army , because it can win when played by a skillfull player. Most armies can win against unskilled opponents or counter builds [like a pure IG gunline against a SW horde] . the problem start when both players have the same game skill . in fact it is worse for the new players , because chaos cant carry them as well as loyalist SW/IG builds.

 

A better, more expansive selection of psychic powers, a realistic way of making vehicles less broken, exciting cimematic combats (with their own inbuilt stategy!), more basic rulebook missions and the removal (mostly) of wound allocation shenanigans.

slowing down the game is never good. mainland europ gets hurt by this a lot , because most tournaments neither allow FW and are played at 1500[because of timer problems people had at larger tournaments] this means when GW balances armies or claims to balance them at 2k[nids for example] , all those people with weaker armies get hurt . I dont know what is good about random charge range. It just addes another random factor to melee over shoting , making melee armies weaker .

And by the way wound allocation was done in 2 armies , 3 if one counts seer council and it is still there in 6th . have you heard about barrag sniping or bullet bending ?

 

 

Hi, just saying, you can't disprove someone's opinion. Personal choice and all that. You could point out examples of where you feel that their logic is flawed, but trying to argue that someone's emotional state toward something is wrong is philosophical, so you may want to let that one go.

oh that is so not true . For example 4th change to 5th change . people may have hated infantry to vehicle spam change . but this is just game mechanics . one could have played the game at 1k or at 2500 and the game was there . inbalanced as always , with dominating builds [as always] . The problem with the 6th is not that is killed assault or killed msu[to be more precise meq av11 MSU] or that it added fortifications/ally[even if nids did get screwed on those]. The change is that it slows the game down . slowing the game down is always bad , because it automaticly makes people play smaller game . Again per se not bad in itself , but when the game is suppose to balance itself more at 2k points and most people play under 2k , then the edition has a huge problem . Same thing with flyer mechanics . this is not the MSU/rending/LoS sniping/rhino rush/hero hammer we had in 2-5th . because there were always more armies that could do those . right now we have 2 armies that do flyer and anti flyer realy good and everyone else who can ally in those armies[or again is nids and sulks in a corner] and saying that it will balance itself out in 1-2 years doesnt help much . because people want to play now and not in 2 years ,hell a lot of the new guys wont be playing the game in 2 years time .

[Agerjag]

Though wound allocation did slow the game down a bit, but as they say "infinitely better" then the old wound allocation bull$%#$ that went on that did not make any sense at all. The fact that you shoot at closest model is amazing. It always bother the hell outa me that when there are 100 orks charging me I always aim for the ones in the back. The best part of this edition, I dont have to buy 1000000000000 transports for every army I own to play at all (I have 3 40k at the moment). You read the SM or CSM fluff they ride transports to the battlefields or use drop pods to get in the fight and then they fight, they dont run around in cans hiding all game shooting out of hatches that was most of last edition.

 

Necrons cant build a mindless list...in fact they only have 1 very specific list that does well consistently and thats Scyth spam. I would argue that its easier to build a mindless chaos list that will do ok then necron list. But I believe its more your point that people can do well with Scyth spam and it takes a good player to overcome how annoying flyers are. They still get beat alot by good players who utilize flyers limited mobility(yeah limited) against them so that they have to spend half the game off the table or fire at suboptimal targets. Once you know these things necron spam just takes the strategy out of the game it becomes can I make enough saves to win which is of course bad for the game in general. That being said this edition is much better then the previous even with that. I hope that they find a way to nerf it as its clearly out of control but thats more a Necron book fault and less an edition fault.

 

I dont feel that CSM and SW were at all designed to do the same thing. You can certainly tailor squads to be similar and despair about point differences but i have found that I just play to our strengths and have always been on pretty even footing with SW.

 

EDIT: also how can you blame the edition for people playing smaller games? People will play whatever points level they want. Of course im from US and most tournaments that I see are 2000 or 2500 points. Each round is 2.5 or 3 hours and it usually works out fine as long as people dont play stupid slow. Just call a judge if they are stalling. You can also use a chess clock if you are really worried about it. Learn the rules thoroughly and play quickly, its really not that bad.

 

You know you dont have to let people tell you how many points you play right? Also i personally dont even think you are really playing 40k under 1850. The game is much more breakable the lower points you get. Also apocalypse are like real 40k battles and 2000-2500 are like skirmishes, less then that seems more like an accident where a couple of guys accidentally ran into a couple of other guys, not armies at all.

[Brother Ambroz]

Necrons cant build a mindless list...in fact they only have 1 very specific list that does well consistently and thats Scyth spam. I would argue that its easier to build a mindless chaos list that will do ok then necron list. But I believe its more your point that people can do well with Scyth spam and it takes a good player to overcome how annoying flyers are. They still get beat alot by good players who utilize flyers limited mobility(yeah limited) against them so that they have to spend half the game off the table or fire at suboptimal targets. Once you know these things necron spam just takes the strategy out of the game it becomes can I make enough saves to win which is of course bad for the game in general. That being said this edition is much better then the previous even with that. I hope that they find a way to nerf it as its clearly out of control but thats more a Necron book fault and less an edition fault.

 

I dont feel that CSM and SW were at all designed to do the same thing. You can certainly tailor squads to be similar and despair about point differences but i have found that I just play to our strengths and have always been on pretty even footing with SW.

 

Sorry I don't agree with either of the above. 'Crons have way more than one single list that does well. That's surely the most infamous (and probably the hardest to beat), that's true but they've got alot of choices. Almost all of their units are very very good. Doing a quick search through the forums, almost every one of our forums has a "how to beat Necrons" or "need help vs Necrons" and they're not just facing flyer spam.

 

Secondly, people say that because they are a great deal alike. Their best HS slot is Long Fangs and ours is Havocs. We have princes or juggerlords, they have TWC with frost weapons or TH/SS for half the cost. I'm not going to break down every unit but you should get the gyst of it. Almost everything we can do, they can do a bit better or SW can do it in a fashion that fits our perception of what CSM should be able to do.

[the jeske]

ditto more then one list . they have a very good slogger list , their non flyer hvy support choices are also good . If flyers ever get nerfed they can build something else .

Though wound allocation did slow the game down a bit

first of all it only mattered for 2 max 3 units in the whole game[paladins , nobz and seer councile] and it didnt slow down the game as much as being forced to roll one dice at a time . technicly you could roll all , but it is less effcient. I have seen a WG termi leader with totem poped absorb the shoting of 1 20+ orc units and a unit of lootaz and a wagghed up dakka jet. with each roll being done one by one . checking range means your constatly checking if your in charge range , is your opponent going to be in double tap range [before you had to do all this in your mind , now you check to be sure] , then you have position models properly[sgts/weapons/non tank HQ at the back with one dude infront of them in case someone can bullet bend them at the back].

 

 

 

 

You can certainly tailor squads to be similar and despair about point differences but i have found that I just play to our strengths and have always been on pretty even footing with SW.

ok and what are those strenghts suppose to be , considering the only difference between our csm and their GH is that we can take hvy weapons. I mean your surly not claiming that a csm gunline works better against other armies then short range csm list ? or is it something else every chaos player around the world is missing .

 

 

 

The fact that you shoot at closest model is amazing

do you know what 6th ed bullet bending is ?

[Agerjag]

Sorry I don't agree with either of the above. 'Crons have way more than one single list that does well. That's surely the most infamous (and probably the hardest to beat), that's true but they've got alot of choices. Almost all of their units are very very good. Doing a quick search through the forums, almost every one of our forums has a "how to beat Necrons" or "need help vs Necrons" and they're not just facing flyer spam.

 

Secondly, people say that because they are a great deal alike. Their best HS slot is Long Fangs and ours is Havocs. We have princes or juggerlords, they have TWC with frost weapons or TH/SS for half the cost. I'm not going to break down every unit but you should get the gyst of it. Almost everything we can do, they can do a bit better or SW can do it in a fashion that fits our perception of what CSM should be able to do.

 

Cron slog is much easier to deal with then cron air, I have never had any problems with any of my armies taking down crons with little to no flyers. That includes 3rd Company Dark Angels who are STRICTLY worse then vanilla marines and dont take advantage of ravenwing or deathwing as troop options. I had more trouble with monolith spam last edition then what they can do now. If they lost night sycths how many do you think could made it at tournements vs SWs, GK or even CSM? let alone something like tzeench daemon spam.

 

So your basically saying were just like every marine, which while certainly true when compared to tyranids or something. Hey i can take devs and tac squads in dark angels too.... We have alot more options then just havoks that are viable. Last codex we hardly even ran havoks becuse we had obliterators and they were somewhat overcosted when compared to oblits. Havoks are very good at 115 points but hardly our only option. I think you need to change your perception of what you think chaos is doing. Also we have access to cheap troops in codex via cultists which they do not. It was very different last edition and saying that because a few things changed were now space wolf clones but worse is kinda sad. We have many options they they do not and while some are less viable then others its pretty divergent from SW. Just look at our bike options and raptor or any of the cult troops. Ive killed "thunderlord units" last edition and i find it even easier now with my volume of str7 and str 8 shots(this is plasma edition). In fact id say last few games my mvp vs SW was my forge fiends. Just the volume of high str shots these guys can put out is great. Sometimes I just blew out their quad gun so my fliers had no trouble or dropped their rune priests with instant death (i usually run two of the things so i can chew through squads and LoutS) rerolls to wound are pretty great vs AV14 or when you really need to make sure wounds get in. You almost make it sound as if you regret them not misprinting your entire codex with C: SW and that we should just slit our wrists and be done with it because GH are better then CSM, that kind of negative attitude will never get you anywhere, if you already assume youve lost then why even play the game? Ive been doing some experimenting with different CSM squads with different marks, Icons and loadouts and have found some really varied units that fulfill different roles that do quite well. Ive gone toe to toe with GH and done very well even when they outclass me in some way or another because I became more specialized. We shouldnt try to be SW but to play our own codex. Yes they have a very efficient codex in a few ways and yes you can spam those options, but that doesnt really change anything about how we should play or perceive our options because they really are not the same. Can they take a helldrake which with good positioning can kill half or all of a GH squad in one turn? Do they have 20 point bikers that are as good as ours?

 

The real problem with the chaos codex is that over time we have felt entitled to a broken codex after 3.5 or just from a few imbalanced units in other codexs. Im even more suprised that nobody has gone into how broken our allies daemons are right now. flame templates that ignore armor? wait weve seen that, its like the brand, except cheaper...and has two wounds and can deepstrike and shoot itself...oh it also glances vehicles...and i can get 9 of them, which can all overwatch.

 

 

Also just to let you know im not a super casual player who just likes shiny things.

I tend to metagame alot, I math-hammer, i check out tourney lists, i read battle reports. I try to get every last point out of the models that I play. I still play alot of models that are very hard to utilize(Tsons for example). I make lists all the time, almost wherever I am for fun. In line at the DMV? perfect.

Ive entered most tournaments in my area and every year used to do 'ard boyz (before it died) in both 40k and WFB. Made it to regional quite a few times. Some players from my store went further, we have a pretty solid group skill wise. Been playing since 3rd with some hiatuses in between.

 

Lastly I dont really have time to go into alot of detail on the play taking longer, but from the sounds of it, you or your opponents are stalling, checking and rechecking distances unnecessarily. Rolling one dice at a time also does not take long and there are many ways to make it faster (rolling all and doing left to right in a box for example).

[Vesper]

The real problem with the chaos codex is that over time we have felt entitled to a broken codex after 3.5 or just from a few imbalanced units in other codexs. Im even more suprised that nobody has gone into how broken our allies daemons are right now. flame templates that ignore armor? wait weve seen that, its like the brand, except cheaper...and has two wounds and can deepstrike and shoot itself...oh it also glances vehicles...and i can get 9 of them, which can all overwatch.

 

Technically speaking, 3.5 wasn't broken, it just had many viable stuff (but maybe that's broken now that players are allowed to have only one decent thing per slot).

The Daemons are another topic, and since there's a build that just mess their mechanics to the point they can't even put a miniature on the board, well, they're not a real topic as they can't play at all. Then, we've bought codex : Chaos Marines here, not Chaos : Daemons. If we have to use allies to get competitive, well, that means our book is poorly designed.

The CSMs are decent, but far behind easy-mode no brainer codices that have instant win buttons : IG, Necrons, SW and GK. That does not mean our codex suck, that means the design team is retarded. Which is why the game is pretty bad.

[Smurfalypse]

The real problem with the chaos codex is that over time we have felt entitled to a broken codex after 3.5 or just from a few imbalanced units in other codexs. Im even more suprised that nobody has gone into how broken our allies daemons are right now. flame templates that ignore armor? wait weve seen that, its like the brand, except cheaper...and has two wounds and can deepstrike and shoot itself...oh it also glances vehicles...and i can get 9 of them, which can all overwatch.

 

Technically speaking, 3.5 wasn't broken, it just had many viable stuff (but maybe that's broken now that players are allowed to have only one decent thing per slot).

The Daemons are another topic, and since there's a build that just mess their mechanics to the point they can't even put a miniature on the board, well, they're not a real topic as they can't play at all. Then, we've bought codex : Chaos Marines here, not Chaos : Daemons. If we have to use allies to get competitive, well, that means our book is poorly designed.

The CSMs are decent, but far behind easy-mode no brainer codices that have instant win buttons : IG, Necrons, SW and GK. That does not mean our codex suck, that means the design team is retarded. Which is why the game is pretty bad.

 

I cant even read this without laughing, not trying to be a jerk but seriously....That codex was the single most OP thing every created by GW, and I am not exaggerating. It lead up to the current codex and one of the worst codexes every written right before it.

 

I am NOT defending the current one, and I am certainly not defending the previous one but if you cannot objectively look at that codex and see how wrong it was, then you cannot see anything clearly. It dominated way harder in its hayday than anything we have EVER seen in 40k, and it did it with 4 or 5 viable builds, all greater than anything else anyone could hope to field.

 

What bothers me about the current rendition of our codex is how fail everyone knew the previous one was and how they kept that "template" and used it again even though there was very little to like about it from their customer base. This is is MUCH better than the last one, but it still feels a little...Bland. Especially when put up next to the Necron one (which was build for 6th).

[Minsc]

I am NOT defending the current one, and I am certainly not defending the previous one but if you cannot objectively look at that codex and see how wrong it was, then you cannot see anything clearly. It dominated way harder in its hayday than anything we have EVER seen in 40k, and it did it with 4 or 5 viable builds, all greater than anything else anyone could hope to field.

 

I played a pure Thousand Sons army back then. I wouldn't exactly call them OP, neither by 2004 or by 2012 standards. :P

 

3.5 was fine except for heavy support-spamming Iron Warriors and some certain combos/builds. It was abuseable though, so I partially agree with you. If someone brings up 3.5, they must be objective.

Personally I would not want to go back to 3.5. I like being able to field different cult-troops in the same army.

[Azekai]

Heavy spamming IW was broken? So they get a lot of basilisks- so what? IG can do that now, and no one is howling about their crazy artillery squadrons of doom.

[Vesper]

I am NOT defending the current one, and I am certainly not defending the previous one but if you cannot objectively look at that codex and see how wrong it was, then you cannot see anything clearly. It dominated way harder in its hayday than anything we have EVER seen in 40k, and it did it with 4 or 5 viable builds, all greater than anything else anyone could hope to field.

 

Stuff like Nidzilla and Eldar Circus were doing fine against Daemon Bomb (the only OTT build of 3.5, among dozen possibilities). The game was fine, back then. If you think that its the most broken book GW ever printed, I've got some useful links for you :

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1380029a

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...dId=prod2010055

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1140056a

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...dId=prod330011a

 

The reason the game is a piece of crap at this very moment is that some armies can break the mechanics of the game to make sure they win.

Necron flyer list in a game where most armies can't even get Flakk without making use of allies ? Most retarded thing ever.

GK spell that prevent any daemon unit to make it to the table ? Someone just missed the gaming part in the concept of "game".

And so on.

Needless to say, throw some indecent prices, in $ and in points, a vain edition that is poorly made with some of the worst ideas ever (challenges !), silly new designs (dreadknight, our fiends and flyer, thunderwolves...), no playtesting, retarded release policy... and the game just feels like a freaking waste of time and money.

 

Personally I would not want to go back to 3.5. I like being able to field different cult-troops in the same army.

It was perfectly doable with the base list. I admit it was an error to put mark restrictions to legion lists, but hey, can't be perfect.

 

In the end, let's not turn this topic in another 3.5-related talk.

[Minsc]

Heavy spamming IW was broken? So they get a lot of basilisks- so what? IG can do that now, and no one is howling about their crazy artillery squadrons of doom.

 

No one is complaining about a 3.5 today.

In fact, 3.5 today would've been much weaker than our current codex (albeit with alot more flavour.)

 

Smurfalypse spoke about comparing 3.5 to other codecies at the time when it was used, and back then, it was probably one of if not the best codex.

[Minsc]

*Doublepost*

[Brother Ambroz]

Cron slog is much easier to deal with then cron air, I have never had any problems with any of my armies taking down crons with little to no flyers. That includes 3rd Company Dark Angels who are STRICTLY worse then vanilla marines and dont take advantage of ravenwing or deathwing as troop options. I had more trouble with monolith spam last edition then what they can do now. If they lost night sycths how many do you think could made it at tournements vs SWs, GK or even CSM? let alone something like tzeench daemon spam.

 

Then really you must be playing some pretty bad players. I've made plenty of lists for my friend who plays 'Crons (of which he only has one flyer, of which he rarely uses) and even as a newer player does well against seasoned vets. Yeah if they had the right lists they could stand up to any of them.

 

So your basically saying were just like every marine, which while certainly true when compared to tyranids or something. Hey i can take devs and tac squads in dark angels too.... We have alot more options then just havoks that are viable. Last codex we hardly even ran havoks becuse we had obliterators and they were somewhat overcosted when compared to oblits. Havoks are very good at 115 points but hardly our only option. I think you need to change your perception of what you think chaos is doing. Also we have access to cheap troops in codex via cultists which they do not. It was very different last edition and saying that because a few things changed were now space wolf clones but worse is kinda sad. We have many options they they do not and while some are less viable then others its pretty divergent from SW. Just look at our bike options and raptor or any of the cult troops. Ive killed "thunderlord units" last edition and i find it even easier now with my volume of str7 and str 8 shots(this is plasma edition). In fact id say last few games my mvp vs SW was my forge fiends. Just the volume of high str shots these guys can put out is great. Sometimes I just blew out their quad gun so my fliers had no trouble or dropped their rune priests with instant death (i usually run two of the things so i can chew through squads and LoutS) rerolls to wound are pretty great vs AV14 or when you really need to make sure wounds get in. You almost make it sound as if you regret them not misprinting your entire codex with C: SW and that we should just slit our wrists and be done with it because GH are better then CSM, that kind of negative attitude will never get you anywhere, if you already assume youve lost then why even play the game? Ive been doing some experimenting with different CSM squads with different marks, Icons and loadouts and have found some really varied units that fulfill different roles that do quite well. Ive gone toe to toe with GH and done very well even when they outclass me in some way or another because I became more specialized. We shouldnt try to be SW but to play our own codex. Yes they have a very efficient codex in a few ways and yes you can spam those options, but that doesnt really change anything about how we should play or perceive our options because they really are not the same. Can they take a helldrake which with good positioning can kill half or all of a GH squad in one turn? Do they have 20 point bikers that are as good as ours?

 

Yes, basic CSM are VERY similar to GH, minus the ATSKNF and a few other abilities they get for free. I never said we didn't have more options besides havocs, I did say that was an example. You don't need to tell me about that, I've reread each unit description probably a hundred times already. Cheap troops yeah with how many good upgrades? And SW don't have access to their IG brothers in arms (who have far better upgrades than cultists)? Where the :P are you getting all this from the paragraph I wrote? I need to change my perception of chaos? You have no clue what my perception is. I play this codex, just like I played the last three and just like I'll never use "counts as", despite its benefits. I realize it's different but our codex is still very similar. You've killed thunderlord units? Good for you. They're not invincible but they're still very good for their points and most would still stomp our CC HQs in our forced challenges. Do you realize where you are typing this? The Chaos forum, where we've almost all had negative attitudes for years, it's essentially part of being/playing chaos. You're coming out with all these "slitting wrists" or reprinting C:SW with a new name; C:CSM, where the :P is that coming from? I get you're a powergamer and that's cool but don't pretend to know a codex better than the chaos-lifers. Don't get me wrong I don't mind the new dex as it's far better than our last but it is still lackluster. That's what we're complaining about and it's chaos, so until we get a decent codex (one in line with loyalists if that ever happens....) then we'll keep complaining most likely.

 

 

The real problem with the chaos codex is that over time we have felt entitled to a broken codex after 3.5 or just from a few imbalanced units in other codexs. Im even more suprised that nobody has gone into how broken our allies daemons are right now. flame templates that ignore armor? wait weve seen that, its like the brand, except cheaper...and has two wounds and can deepstrike and shoot itself...oh it also glances vehicles...and i can get 9 of them, which can all overwatch.

 

We don't feel entitled to a broken codex. We just want one on par with all the OTT codex books from 5th and yeah they said they're trying to tone it down but if the sounds of what DA are getting are true, then that's likely not going to happen. Yeah all from a damn WD update which I for the life of me still can't find.

[Azekai]

Heavy spamming IW was broken? So they get a lot of basilisks- so what? IG can do that now, and no one is howling about their crazy artillery squadrons of doom.

 

No one is complaining about a 3.5 today.

In fact, 3.5 today would've been much weaker than our current codex (albeit with alot more flavour.)

 

Smurfalypse spoke about comparing 3.5 to other codecies at the time when it was used, and back then, it was probably one of if not the best codex.

Right, but the only comparison I am drawing between old and new codices was that having a lot of basilisks =/= really strong list. Back then having 4 basilisks wasn't that good, like nowadays how people can have 9- but so what? IW heavy artillery spam was just not that good- if you were unprepared, it was brutal, but same goes for nidzilla and a bunch of other lists, then and now.

 

By the way, Vesper and Tanith Ghost should be called Dark Apostles, because they are preachin' it! :P

[Brother Ambroz]

By the way, Vesper and Tanith Ghost should be called Dark Apostles, because they are preachin' it! :lol:

 

Sigging for awesomeness.

[Rain]

Heh. You guys realize that Iron Warriors couldn't actually take 4 Basilisks right? Basilisks and Vindicators were both 0-1 back then. They could however take defilers with indirect fire, but then so could everyone. The main power of the list was in the 9 oblits combined with the fact that oblits were an elites choice. But yeah, Chaos players just want options we can feel excited about. Stuff that really hits you and makes you go "woah, I wanna see this in action" stuff that yeah, maybe starts out a bit overpowered, but ends up being about even with the other tricks that other armies can bring to the table. That's what makes this game fun, not this asinine obsession with "balance" if you want balance go play chess. And the designers obviously agree given that they let Matt Ward within 20 miles of the design studio.

[the jeske]

I cant even read this without laughing, not trying to be a jerk but seriously....That codex was the single most OP thing every created by GW, and I am not exaggerating. It lead up to the current codex and one of the worst codexes every written right before it.

and yet circus and nidzilla were wining more . demon bombs were rather unstable and IW gunline had bad match ups with eldar. again your also forgeting that a lot of people played something else then BL khorn /IW/demon bombs. chaos dex was not a 5th ed sm .

 

We have alot more options then just havoks that are viable.

in what builds. to run AV stuff like preds we have to play mecha and if we ever get av12 transports and/or other armies start playing mecha too , it will be the bomb . sadly it aint the case . forgefiends in csm armies die too fast[low av] , preds are like not flying vendettas ,that dont help against flyers. LR "work" if the opposing army has problems with dealing with over av12 , now am not saying that people dont build armies like that , but those are not good armies .

oblits went from no brainer , to weapon switching units . They force us to have above avarge rolls[turn one las open stuff.. turn two fire plasma etc].

 

In fact id say last few games my mvp vs SW was my forge fiends.

and what kind of a SW army was that . only thing that could hurt by forges is SW MSU spam armies , but that is a 5th ed build . a6th ed SW horde or drop pod army can deal with IG firing at it and that is more fire power then even 3 forgefiends.

also how can you blame the edition for people playing smaller games? People will play whatever points level they want.

also how can you blame the edition for people playing smaller games? People will play whatever points level they want.

in tournaments its all about time . when a game takes too long without stalling smaller games are played . not everywhere in the world can one play 1+ hour games per round . and what is played in tournaments is later played by people at shops.

If the enviroment caps points at 1999 , most people dont build/buy dual FoC armies . If the eviroment says no to FW people wont have as many FW models , as in the UK where it is a free for all on a lot of tournaments . And that is just the tournament stuff, people dont want to play a 3+hours game at 2500pts just because their opponent happens to play a 250+ models IG army.against a good friend , maybe , but not against strangers . After that comes the flyer inbalance . dual FoC can do some realy horrible stuff with necron/IG/SW or mix of them , and doesnt do as much for other armies . People view bigger games as more unbalanced and there for dont play them and because they dont play them they dont have armies to play dual FoC high points games . And if they dont have armies for those games , they dont want such standards supported and the circle closes.

 

 

Ive been doing some experimenting with different CSM squads with different marks, Icons and loadouts and have found some really varied units that fulfill different roles that do quite well.

a unit can do 3 things . it can shot , it can assault or it can go to the ground . enlighten us how does the addition of marks/icons and the rise of costs of csm units above what GH cost without stuff GH get[pods/atknf, hidde power ax , their own chaos icons etc] , make our csm squads work different from markless/iconless csm or GH with close to the same gear set up . I would realy like to read about that.

 

 

Can they take a helldrake which with good positioning can kill half or all of a GH squad in one turn?

puting the why take GH on foot aside . yes they can , they can take outflanking hellhounds with creed.

[Prot]

When I really think about the OP's question: What is real problem? I think originally I was perturbed at the lack of Legion rules.

 

The conversation has become muddled in meta-talk and 'how do you do this' kind of conversation. Back to the original point of the thread I've zeroed in on my biggest issue with the codex:

 

- Too many 'bad' new units.

 

- Invalid named HQ's.

 

- The 'Chaos-y' options kind of stink (makes me think a Legion(s) book is on the way).

 

Those are my big three. I WANT to use Warp Talons but even on paper they're a trash unit. I don't see even Raptors pushing Bikes off the 'go to' Fast Attack choice. Mutilators, Warpsmith, Dark Apostle...? I don't get it. There's a lot of junk units in what is a big launch for a new, 6th edition codex.

 

I always loved playing cool, 'epic' HQ's and understandably because of their fluff they aren't always competitive. But the new Chaos? I thankfully have always been a 'Huron' guy, but what else???? Maybe in a massive game you got a good chance of using Abe to some success, but that's it for me. Usually I'm used to seeing characters change with the ebb and flow of editions, and meta-play but there's a lot of junk there.

 

In this category I am severely disappointed a new HQ didn't come out of it.... like a real Warsmith! An Alpha Legion dude, or just fill in the blank.

 

Finally in my games, and testing I am finding less and less reason to put any 'chaos' into my units. No marks, definitely no icons... it's just fluff. I started playing games with lots of marks, and a few icons. Then I moved to no icons, and fewer marks. I'm now down to one unit with a mark (Bikes with MoK).

 

It's just too inefficient vs. the stronger armies. If you want to be fluffy, it will cost you feet on the table and you may reap no reward for it.

 

So those are my big 3.

 

I do want to say the codex does have some merit with me. I think it's flexible. I think in the hands of a good player it will give you chance. I really believe this, but it will be work. There's no "I win" button in this codex. Most codexes feature at least ONE list that is feared in most meta's. I just don't see it yet unless we are talking some goofy Spawn + Zombie from hell list. (which I won't use).

 

Personally I'm glad it doesn't have an I Win button, but those three things still bother me for such an important codex.

[Warp space]

To me Codex:CSM failed on many levels but real problem isthat it is BLAND.

There was yet anouther push away from legions and towards renegade CSM's, with the reduction of Leadership across the board. what angers me about that is they keep pushing the resently betraied chapter angle yet not a single one of these chapters brought a Assault cannon, thunder hammer, storm shield, Psychic hood, LR varient anything none perheresy. What do all these weapons disaper magically when a SM turns to Chaos. If you want to push renegades great give me renegade options.

for the most part to me this dex was just a weakened down version of the last dex with a bunch OK extras thrown in. I was really hoping for somthing to be excited about and I just can't be.

[Lepaca]

Anyone else think that our codex feels more like a xenos codex that a marine codex?

[Agerjag]

and what kind of a SW army was that . only thing that could hurt by forges is SW MSU spam armies , but that is a 5th ed build . a6th ed SW horde or drop pod army can deal with IG firing at it and that is more fire power then even 3 forgefiends.

 

in tournaments its all about time . when a game takes too long without stalling smaller games are played . not everywhere in the world can one play 1+ hour games per round . and what is played in tournaments is later played by people at shops.

To be exact the space wolf armies I play are mostly Horde, Grey hunters and Longfangs en mass. Sometimes thunderwolf cav, sometimes just priests joining units, occasionally outlflankers and droppods. Almost always an aegis. They vary some things but mostly stick to horde. Most weekly games are around 1850-2k.

 

If the enviroment caps points at 1999 , most people dont build/buy dual FoC armies . If the eviroment says no to FW people wont have as many FW models , as in the UK where it is a free for all on a lot of tournaments . And that is just the tournament stuff, people dont want to play a 3+hours game at 2500pts just because their opponent happens to play a 250+ models IG army.against a good friend , maybe , but not against strangers . After that comes the flyer inbalance . dual FoC can do some realy horrible stuff with necron/IG/SW or mix of them , and doesnt do as much for other armies . People view bigger games as more unbalanced and there for dont play them and because they dont play them they dont have armies to play dual FoC high points games . And if they dont have armies for those games , they dont want such standards supported and the circle closes.

Understandably there are many people that base most of their games on the local tournaments as practice for said tournaments, I do this myself quite often. But how we got to the point where 1500 is the new 2000 seems a bit crazy. 1850 games take about the time 2000 games used to take and once you get double FOC things do get a little crazier 2000 points depending on lists can take as long as 2500 used to, especially if players are new and still unused to this edition.

 

a unit can do 3 things . it can shot , it can assault or it can go to the ground . enlighten us how does the addition of marks/icons and the rise of costs of csm units above what GH cost without stuff GH get[pods/atknf, hidde power ax , their own chaos icons etc] , make our csm squads work different from markless/iconless csm or GH with close to the same gear set up . I would realy like to read about that.

GH dont come with +1 I or FNP or Rage. We have a variety of options that they do not. Yes these things come with a price tag which is why you have to be careful about what you choose. Ive run some efficiently cheap khorne csm with double melta, trade for ccw with pw on champ for example that have done well in objective games. Especially good in games like the relic where you can expect your opponent to send up troops.

 

puting the why take GH on foot aside . yes they can , they can take outflanking hellhounds with creed.

Which are ap 4 and even if they catch our entire squad because we failed to space them out thats only a couple marines on average. It also not being a flier makes it much easier to take care of. Anyway we are really comparing PA to PA here (which with the SM population is pretty common).

 

By the way, Vesper and Tanith Ghost should be called Dark Apostles, because they are preachin' it!

If you mean Dark Apostles preaching the opposite of Chaos Glory because were suboptimal to other codices. Then yes...totally dark apostles. I can hear it now "Dont fight for chaos those Space Wolves will just plain mess you up, the gods are not worth the kind of effort we would need to give to beat them!"

 

Chaos lifers? If you dont like it so much why would you choose it as your lifestyle? unless your just really into being miserable or something, I guess you can share that with CSM cause they havent destroyed Terra yet, and are pretty upset about it. You know its most likely because the SW and IG are so OP. And know the codex better? we must read it differently, my many readings of it are obviously flawed so I cant understand it as well as you....I must not have read the last 2 either because my understanding is so poor.....

 

As i said before I prefer to play dark angels, but over the last couple of years have been playing predominately chaos because at least they have a chance. You want a poor codex go try DA. They havent been even half as competitive as chaos even with our last dex. Given to be competitive we played double lash prince, min unit plague rhinos with double plas and a couple units of oblits.

 

 

And back to the topic at hand.

@Prot

I agree that many of our new units (warp talons, mutilators especially) are pretty subpar. I wish that all codices had internal balance, though we have never seen that before. We did get some "new to us" things in terms of spawns and bikes though as they were not very viable before.

 

As for characters, some of ours became more viable. Typhus and Ahriman I would say are better costed for what they do. While even then I would much rather take a lord and kit him out for much cheaper or a sorcerer. Another named would have been great, though i feel like we would have had to lose one as we have more then alot of codex these days.

 

I would have personally been more happy if we did not get those new units and they just made some of our many other choices actually viable. Im glad they did this for bikes, but things like possed and TSons which have been pretty suboptimal for some time and could have used some work.

 

I dont think that legion rules are the direction that 40k is going. The legions are not really together anymore. Heck taking Ahriman and a TSons army is odd because he was exiled. Its fun to play some heresy games, but I think that warbands and crusades are the direction things are going. As we have seen for the last few years. In one sense it lets you make your warband whatever you want, your not really held down by the fluff to any degree and you can specialize and make your own story. My favorite army for example (non-tournament of course) is ahriman and his band of misfit exiles that hes won over or manipulated into helping him with his quest for knowledge. You can really go any direction. I dont think that "Chaos" is meant to be as structured as the loyalists. Sometimes that leads us to some unfortunate random rules. Random charts is synonymous to chaos type of thing. But overall I like the direction. Forge World looks to be doing some great heresy stuff so if thats your cup of tea then thats what I would suggest.

[Brother Ambroz]

If you mean Dark Apostles preaching the opposite of Chaos Glory because were suboptimal to other codices. Then yes...totally dark apostles. I can hear it now "Dont fight for chaos those Space Wolves will just plain mess you up, the gods are not worth the kind of effort we would need to give to beat them!"

 

Chaos lifers? If you dont like it so much why would you choose it as your lifestyle? unless your just really into being miserable or something, I guess you can share that with CSM cause they havent destroyed Terra yet, and are pretty upset about it. You know its most likely because the SW and IG are so OP. And know the codex better? we must read it differently, my many readings of it are obviously flawed so I cant understand it as well as you....I must not have read the last 2 either because my understanding is so poor.....

 

As i said before I prefer to play dark angels, but over the last couple of years have been playing predominately chaos because at least they have a chance. You want a poor codex go try DA. They havent been even half as competitive as chaos even with our last dex. Given to be competitive we played double lash prince, min unit plague rhinos with double plas and a couple units of oblits.

 

Unless you're extremely careful with your points, then yes we are suboptimal in many aspects. Since you seem to only take bits and peices of what I write I assume you can't read that well so I'll say it again, the codex isn't terrible it's simply lackluster. There's pretty much no one here that plays chaos just for the rules. We all play it for the modeling purposes or because we love the fluff. As for your readings, see the above.

 

I've played DA as an ally and as an opponent.

[Prot]

@Prot

I agree that many of our new units (warp talons, mutilators especially) are pretty subpar. I wish that all codices had internal balance, though we have never seen that before. We did get some "new to us" things in terms of spawns and bikes though as they were not very viable before.

 

As for characters, some of ours became more viable. Typhus and Ahriman I would say are better costed for what they do. While even then I would much rather take a lord and kit him out for much cheaper or a sorcerer. Another named would have been great, though i feel like we would have had to lose one as we have more then alot of codex these days.

 

I confess to not trying Ahriman out yet. But I'm in an area that predominantly plays 1500 pt tournies so that's what we all practice for and I can't see him making the cut. Yea, I don't know why they couldn't have done a 'cheaper' named Sorc. That would have filled a gap nicely.

 

Personally I'm sticking out the codex. It has a lot of issues but I still prefer it to Gav-dex. I'm lucky though that I have a LOT of chaos to use so it's easy for me to bounce from list to list, trying things out.

[Hellios]

I dont think that legion rules are the direction that 40k is going. The legions are not really together anymore. Heck taking Ahriman and a TSons army is odd because he was exiled. Its fun to play some heresy games, but I think that warbands and crusades are the direction things are going. As we have seen for the last few years. In one sense it lets you make your warband whatever you want, your not really held down by the fluff to any degree and you can specialize and make your own story. My favorite army for example (non-tournament of course) is ahriman and his band of misfit exiles that hes won over or manipulated into helping him with his quest for knowledge. You can really go any direction. I dont think that "Chaos" is meant to be as structured as the loyalists. Sometimes that leads us to some unfortunate random rules. Random charts is synonymous to chaos type of thing. But overall I like the direction. Forge World looks to be doing some great heresy stuff so if thats your cup of tea then thats what I would suggest.

 

Ahriman was joined by a number of other sorcerers from the 1ksons and the Rubrics they control, because many of the sorcerers in the 1ksons were dissatisfied with Magnus's leadership. Hence why so many of them secretly joined with him to cast the Rubric... Although obviously he would have lost favour with some of these when the Rubric went 'wrong'. Ahriman probably has the second largest group of 1ksons under his control, second to those who still call the planet of sorcerers home.