The real problem with the Chaos Space Marines Codex

[Sanctimonius]

What would be the answer, in people's minds? I've seen a lot of dissatisfaction with the codex, and I agree, it is a missed opportunity - we wanted legions represented in the rules, but what we ended up with was codex: Black Legion.

 

Do we need a larger codex, with options to tailor your army to certain legion-specific rules and limitations/allowances? Should we be satisfied with this one for now, and hope for Chapter Approved Rules at a later date (and all the arguments that entails at local gaming stores where people argue they aren't 'real' rules)? Or do we ask for legion specific codeces, a la SW, BT, BA and all that jazz?

[Brother Aiwass]

@Kol;

 

*snip

Fair enough, I can see how I was misunderstood. They're not Legion lists the same way that IA and 3.5 legion lists were Legion lists. Instead of "You pick this Legion, you have this specific base list with only these options." Heresy has it as, this is the base template. As you pick your Legion, you unlock this Elite unit, these HQ SCs, and get these rules for your army." That makes sense to me. If people want something similar to that, I will live with it. But I don't want to see a flashback to 3.5. Sorry, I just don't want to.

 

I also don't want the 3.5, nor the 6th (which is not a bad generic book [aka Black Legion], but it's very crappy at Chaos Legiones fluff/lists). I will use the CSM dex, but also the generic Legion list (or even, funny enough, the Betrayal Black Legion list to field NL until the 2nd HH book comes out.

 

We play Warhammer 40k, not 30k. [...]

Those glory days are gone.

It's almost sadistic to bring out HH1 and C:CSMeh at the same time. As long as my opponent is okay with it, I'll rather play 30k, thank you. It is a supplement for 40k, after all, maybe imbalanced, but so is 40k. And there is still so much more to come (first official mechanicum army, anyone?)...

Point is: playing what you really want to play* is simply more fun than complaining about what could have been!

 

I can't agree more. 'Chaosy' Legion list with Mechanicum support? Yes please. Even, eventually, an actual Mechanicum list.

[space wolf]

Is will probably never happen, but with the changes to WD, they could just add new rule without having to fully commit it to. Codex.

[meeper]

I think we would have just been happy with an ernest attempt.

[Vesper]

Every Chaos codex that leaves the legions behind is, sadly, a waste of time for most players, as many of said players picked Chaos thanks to the legions and their fluff (let's face it, 80% of the Chaos players play a legion). The Chaos codex just fails to make every attempt to play fluffy fun and rewarding. We've waited five or six years in pain while the gavdex was on the shelves, and we are given (at a friggin high price) what is finally an okay codex that is nothing but a list when people wanted much much more.

[techsoldaten]

Every Chaos codex that leaves the legions behind is, sadly, a waste of time for most players, as many of said players picked Chaos thanks to the legions and their fluff (let's face it, 80% of the Chaos players play a legion). The Chaos codex just fails to make every attempt to play fluffy fun and rewarding. We've waited five or six years in pain while the gavdex was on the shelves, and we are given (at a friggin high price) what is finally an okay codex that is nothing but a list when people wanted much much more.

Our ideas about the new Codex may change over time. Something worth considering is that this is the first 6th edition Codex, and may be setting a standard for others to follow.

 

I see a lot of options in personalizing a list through the use of Allies, in terms of how they can be used to address gaps in our own army. This is a way of addressing the legion gap besides using a list itself, and likely the most useful one for the time being. What is more Alpha or WB than bringing in some traitors from another force? What is more IW than a bunch of IG Tanks? What is more Nurgle than Epidemus? What is more WE than a bloodthirster and some hounds? Etc...

 

Encouraging people to think creatively here. We are not limited by the Codex, we are challenged to overcome it's deficiencies.

[Vilicate]

I laugh that people think that individual chaos legions have enough of a following that GW is going to waste one of their 2-3 new army slots a year giving them an entire codex to themselves, no less for each legion.

 

Chaos as a whole is kinda popular, but no where near SW, DA, BA, BT or regular SM. Orks, Tau, IG and any of the space marines are all more popular than Chaos.

 

It takes a lot of effort to create an entire new book with legion rules! It's not going to happen. If you want to make up your own rules, I'm sure GW would support house-ruling the crap out of their book. They love that sort of thing. But as far as official products go, you're stuck with what they've provided. Wishlisting, complaining and dreaming aren't going to get you a book.

 

Just sayin'.

[the jeske]

yeah but what does popular mean . If there are no rules and models to support army X , then it is not popular. were GK popular when they had the old dex ? are sob popular ? were DE popular ? were DA as popular pre faq as they were post faq ?

 

EC ,IW , WB and BL had huge fandoms durning the 3.5 times . then EC went more or less extinct because of crappy rules and right now it doesnt look like , just because there is a new dex they will become more popular . Were PMs or DG as popular under 3.5 as they were under the gav dex ? no they werent , they were the top choice and were spamed.

 

saying that legion players are laughable or that legion following is small and inconsequestial[by the way you just offended 4 out 6 chaos sub forums] and that this means that they are somehow not worth rules or GW noticing that people want to play legions is at best false.

 

Our ideas about the new Codex may change over time. Something worth considering is that this is the first 6th edition Codex, and may be setting a standard for others to follow.

where you there when people were saying the same when JJ made DA and gav made chaos ?

[Azekai]

I laugh that people think that individual chaos legions have enough of a following that GW is going to waste one of their 2-3 new army slots a year giving them an entire codex to themselves, no less for each legion.

Well, save your scorn. I have seen way more people play Death Guard/Nurgle aligned CSM alone than, say, eldar or dark eldar. Khorne/WE armies are pretty common too. And if the latest codex offering is any indication, I really don't think it saps too much from GW to produce one of these things. Plenty of other gaming corporations update/release new material that rivals (or surpasses) GW's in quality; it can be done, and it is not insanity to ask for it.

 

Encouraging people to think creatively here. We are not limited by the Codex, we are challenged to overcome it's deficiencies.

That is . . . a very positive way to view our current situation. :) It's just that coping is not the position we wanted to be in, certainly not after getting a $60 book.

[Minsc]

It's just that coping is not the position we wanted to be in, certainly not after getting a $60 book.

 

With several printing-errors in it.

 

Also, after wishlisting for 4 years, I was hoping it would take me more than a month post-release before I started wishlisting again, I was wrong. :P

[Killax]

Well the codex looks cool, it's more of an artbook to me than anything else.

 

I still think the codex has what it needs to be competitive, it's not your easy cut and paste list but requires some thought.

What is a bit sad is the rather limited choices we have in units that are actually good (not unit upgrades, we've got to many of that).

 

There is a lot in our book and certain units should or will never be used outside of friendly/fun games.

 

In short, the book is not a real upgrade but rather an "akward" update on what we knew.

[Vilicate]

yeah but what does popular mean . If there are no rules and models to support army X , then it is not popular. were GK popular when they had the old dex ? are sob popular ? were DE popular ? were DA as popular pre faq as they were post faq ?

 

Popular means sales driven. Or, if you want a local example, check out the post counts on the various faction subforums. That should let you see how much more popular those factions are then ours. And those are just subfactions of marines. Any one of those has more posts all of ours (with the exception of BT, but they're up for renewal soonish most likely). I've been a chaos player, it was my first army, and I'll continue to love chaos. They're not my favorite faction anymore (that honor goes to eldar), but they're still pretty awesome.

 

EC ,IW , WB and BL had huge fandoms durning the 3.5 times . then EC went more or less extinct because of crappy rules and right now it doesnt look like , just because there is a new dex they will become more popular . Were PMs or DG as popular under 3.5 as they were under the gav dex ? no they werent , they were the top choice and were spamed.

 

Well, the last book killed legions, and more or less killed the chaos player base. I tried to play with that book completely unsuccessfully for 6 months. I gave up. I played Iron Warriors, and had small WB, WE and BL armies as well. I was working on 1ksons, but that didn't pan out. I also had a Flawless Host army in the works when I quit chaos under the last book.

 

saying that legion players are laughable or that legion following is small and inconsequestial[by the way you just offended 4 out 6 chaos sub forums] and that this means that they are somehow not worth rules or GW noticing that people want to play legions is at best false.

 

The amount of people who would buy legion rules if they came out is probably decent. However, the amount of people who will buy a new Tau army when it comes out is greater. Why would they waste their time producing an item that generates less sales when they could just pump out an entire new army for people to play with? It's just a cause for more heartache to continously pine for new legion rules when they're not coming. They didn't come with/after the last book and they're probably not coming now.

 

If you want to play with the 3.5 dex or the IA rules, then ask your opponent. I'm sure they'll understand why your brand new rules that you're throughly played with are WAY too generic for you to theme your army.

 

 

 

I guess all I'm saying is that we as a Chaos Community should be looking at the book with fresh eyes. Yeah, okay, so it didn't contain legion rules. Yeah, that's probably disappointing to a lot of people (me too!). But what we do have in a book with a lot of options for our basic troopers, and some neat unit and character combinations that are brand new, and for the first time since 3.5, we have the option to take real daemons in our armies again as allies!

 

I think instead of looking at the bad in the book, concentrate on the good and making some neat combinations. Especially exploring allies, and some of our new units.

[Nehekhare]

I see a lot of options in personalizing a list through the use of Allies, in terms of how they can be used to address gaps in our own army.

 

But what does chaos actually bring to the table other than gaps?

[Kol Saresk]

I see a lot of options in personalizing a list through the use of Allies, in terms of how they can be used to address gaps in our own army.

 

But what does chaos actually bring to the table other than gaps?

A lack of logical order. A.k.a., Chaos.

[the jeske]

But what we do have in a book with a lot of options for our basic troopers,

I think we are looking at 2 different dex.

 

you have one actual works horse troop the csm and one bubble wrap the cultists . 1ksons are bad, zerkers are outperformed by khorn csm , same with NM and MoS csm [sonic make no sense and syren isnt worth losing 2 plasma guns]. pms can camp , but to take them one either have to play tyfus or a nurgle lord.

 

out of all the new unit fiends under perform , maulers suck[have to run the whole army to use them and even then they are hth walkers in a shoty edition with low ws and few attacks] , talons suck [high cost meq stats ,sm venguard without DI], hth oblits are so lol being in the same slot as chaos termis . the drake is a flamer delivery weapon with a higher cost then cheap flyers and less killines then higher cost flyers , as a dakka platform it has to low bs and is too random to counter other flyers not to mention ground targets. the apostol and chaos techy may as well have no existed .

 

bikes got better and that is it . raptors and spawn technicly too , but siting in the same slot as bikers means they never get used . The codex is better then the last one , but again that is hardly a feat . And viability or many combionations you talk about arent there .

 

SW have 3 lists with different game play. drop pod , slogger and mecha[am not counting the odd ball stuff like TWC builds or LR rush etc] . How different in game play are a chaos armies right now ?

 

 

Popular means sales driven. Or, if you want a local example, check out the post counts on the various faction subforums. That should let you see how much more popular those factions are then ours. And those are just subfactions of marines. Any one of those has more posts all of ours (with the exception of BT, but they're up for renewal soonish most likely). I've been a chaos player, it was my first army, and I'll continue to love chaos. They're not my favorite faction anymore (that honor goes to eldar), but they're still pretty awesome.

ok still dont understand you then . the sales are created by options to play it , armies that suck or have few options dont have large communities . one cant say that legion communities are worth just a lol , because they are small . what the hell are they suppose to be after gav dex ? after the jj dex , GW had to revitalize chaos with IA articles because no one was playing chaos .

 

 

 

 

 

I dont get the fresh eye comment . People knew how the good builds will look like as soon as they got their hands on the dex or leaks which , where there half summer . If some sort of genius 1ksons or NM build existed it would have been posted and it would be steam rolling tournaments right now .

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

But what we do have in a book with a lot of options for our basic troopers, and some neat unit and character combinations that are brand new, and for the first time since 3.5, we have the option to take real daemons in our armies again as allies!

 

I think instead of looking at the bad in the book, concentrate on the good and making some neat combinations. Especially exploring allies, and some of our new units.

Try looking at the book from a Thousand sons player perspective, and I challenge you to not be as bitter, disappointed and frustrated at it as an Iron warrior when his favorite siege engine is destroyed by imperial fists, especially when you look at the either of the SW, BA or grey knight lists and their psykers.

[Vilicate]

But what we do have in a book with a lot of options for our basic troopers, and some neat unit and character combinations that are brand new, and for the first time since 3.5, we have the option to take real daemons in our armies again as allies!

 

I think instead of looking at the bad in the book, concentrate on the good and making some neat combinations. Especially exploring allies, and some of our new units.

Try looking at the book from a Thousand sons player perspective, and I challenge you to not be as bitter, disappointed and frustrated at it as an Iron warrior when his favorite siege engine is destroyed by imperial fists, especially when you look at the either of the SW, BA or grey knight lists and their psykers.

 

I'm sorry, but do you expect your sub faction (one of four or more!) to have as many options and abilities as a mainline book?

 

I don't disagree entirely. Tzeentch got the short end of the stick in this book. I've been playing a 1ksons list with tzeetnch daemon allies, and have been undefeated thus far in our local league. I know it's circumstantial evidence, but hey, that's been my experience. The lore sucks though. no arguments there. Tzeentch should have the best psykers marine-wise. Now they just have the most <_<

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I wasn't expecting that, I was just expecting them not to get nerfed via the pathetic, miserable stillborn failiure of a lore we got saddled with, that alone was a kick in the crotch for us, the fact there are still no options beyond melta bombs and what force weapon the Asp. sorcerer has is just stupid, would giving the thousand sons anything other then bolters been that bad?

And before anyone says "You get AP3, getting anything else is broken." Really? Compared to grey knights or Blood angels? AP3 is not even that good, most loyalist marine players (and chaos) are now taking as many terminators and other 2+ save as they can, plus there is cover, and non power armour armies, and guess what? If you catch a tactical squad/crisis suit team in the open, it won't be wiped out, you'll be lucky to kill 4 tactical marines with 10 ruberics as S4 means that the AP3 ain't that great.

All we wanted was the same level of options plague marines/noise marines/berserkers get, yet it seems that was too much to ask of GW.

[Lexington]

A lot of things did not have rules back then, but that doesn't mean that when people were forced to make due it was 'better.' Anyway, 2nd ed was a long time ago, and to be given new definition in the form of varied and colorful legion rules was positive. By the same token, to have those choices removed was a step in the wrong direction. Now we have nothing even roughly analogous, short of FW.

Thing is, very few of these choices are actually gone when you look at the new book and 6th Ed overall. The Alpha Legion got its Cultists back. Iron Warriors have their Vindicators, and can even get ahold of some Traitor Basilisks for nostalgia's sake. Word Bearers can once again Daemon Bomb to their heretical hearts' content. Night Lords can fill their FA slots with as many Raptors they ever could, and they've even got a "Fear" special rule to keep the Kurzeies warm at night. Cult Legion players can now brand every single power-armored butt in the army with a Mark of their choice. The Legion Lists are alive and kicking*, and you don't even have to give anything up to use them.

 

This should make people jump for joy, and it feels like the reason it doesn't is because no one's being told specifically that they have a Word Bearers army or a Death Guard army or whatever. It confuses me.

 

_{* Yes, I'm aware that there's still some 3.5 armies that can't be made - Noise Marine Big Bands and such - but the majority are there, and I don't think there's a single army in the game that's come through the 4th-to-5th translation without losing something.}

[Emperors Immortals]

I agree with Lex, in that I think this ed. will be focused on casual gameplay and fluffy lists, because strictly tournie lists sucked the fun out of last ed.

 

CSM will surprise us in everything less then cut-throat competitive circles, and even then reports of respectable palcings are filtering through slowly (InsanePsychopath comes to mind, littlbitz' IW tournie thread as well).

 

Yes, we didnt get what I would expect as equal treatment for my other loves, SW and BA but were doing better then the red-haired step child that is the Eldar dex.

 

Only 6th ed. can prove how good we will be.

[Kol Saresk]

Ugh, Raptor Legions. *Jim Carrey voice* Is that all we're good for?

 

Actually to a degree those lists still can be made, they're just not as powerful as they once were.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Thing is, very few of these choices are actually gone when you look at the new book and 6th Ed overall. The Alpha Legion got its Cultists back.

 

Sigh. This again. The only reason anyone took cultists in a 3.5 Alpha Legion army was to gain access to daemons. The cultists were not what made an Alpha Legion army in 3.5. That honor goes to Infiltrate for 1 point per model. Give me that back, and I'll shut up and put the dex in the win column.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Ugh, Raptor Legions. *Jim Carrey voice* Is that all we're good for?

 

Actually to a degree those lists still can be made, they're just not as powerful as they once were.

 

Well to be honest a NL with 3-4 Raptors units, was quite troublesome.

 

Raptors where better in many ways, They caused LD malus and had Hit&Run, wich wasn't that bad when looking at it.

 

Now i know that a full of Raptors NL army is a bit of the easy/lazy way to do it, but their where worse stuff elsewhere when looking at it really.

[Prot]

I think some of us are getting lost in debates about old codex vs. the new one.

 

The bottom line is if someone asks me where I think the codex missed the boat, it's with lack of Legion support. That's a HUGE, glaring hole no matter how competitive you think it is or isn't. The last two codexes have clearly gone backwards in this regard.

 

10 Years ago you could see 3-4 COMPLETELY different chaos armies at a tournament. And I don't just mean paint colours. That was the result of IA articles, and a diverse codex.

 

The second major 'problem' I have with this codex is the amount of stillborn units. The codex is loaded with units, and loaded with new models. Granted some models are simply following a trend to have dual roles to make you buy more boxes, but this idea isn't going to work because the units are not only not competitive, they simply aren't functional enough to take that role in your army.

 

On the other hand some of the new units are good, and some older Codex duds were obviously sitting in warehouse rafters and got a much needed boost. So those are two positives.

 

I'd love to see how many tournaments feature Mutilators, Warp Talons, Dark Apostles, .... just too many (new) garbage units for a brand new codex, in a brand new era.

[Praetor of Calth]

With all due respect to anyone who thinks otherwise, there is a massive demand for Legion rules. The majority of the Chaos fanbase plays a Legion (I play Word Bearers myself) and GW should cater to their fanbase, afterall their fanbase drives miniatures sales and more sales = more cash in GW's pocket. Chaos could quite easily be one of the biggest selling armies in 40k equal to that of space marines, but the lack of support for a large part of their fanbase is too be quite frank embaressing. I quite ofte hear the argument that chaos is diverse and that no warband is the same, and yes your right it is, but you could apply the same logic to space marine chapters and they get special rules for individual chapters. To be honest it when I cry for legion rules I dont mean anything on a large scale just something like this;

 

Alpha Legion- D3+1 Units may infiltrate

Nightlords- Gain Nightvision and fear if modelled with terror markings/trophies.

Word Bearers- Zealot, and Daemons don't scatter with 6" of a Icon.

World Eaters- Cult Termies/Dread

EC- ""

DG- ""

TS- ""

Iron Warriors- Move Through Cover Trenches/Ruins.Craters. May take two fortifications. (2nd fortification may not be over 100pts)

BL- May rally even below 50% in numbers.

 

See it's really not hard, it doesn't need to be anything huge just a couple of rules that could potentially replace Warlord Traits or even come tacked on to a SC, jsut something to cater to the Legion fanbase.