The real problem with the Chaos Space Marines Codex

[Chimerical]

Chaos as a whole is kinda popular, but no where near SW, DA, BA, BT or regular SM. Orks, Tau, IG and any of the space marines are all more popular than Chaos.

 

You obviously haven't been in the game for very long. At the tail-end of 4th edition (indeed, through almost all of 4th) you wouldn't have been surprised to see as many combined Chaos armies as loyalist Space Marine ones. That was directly related to their having a strong codex representative of all of the legions. Eldar were all over the place. IG were a rare sight... and GK were rarer still.

 

My point being, the popularity of an army is clearly more dependent on the state of the codex than the other way around. And the state of our new dex is even worse than it was for the last release (remember, Chaos 4.0 was quite strong on its release, even though we lamented its blandness). This doesn't bode well for how many Chaos armies you'll be seeing in a year's time. And it's going to become remembered for being a HUGE missed opportunity for GW, considering the success of the Horus Heresy.

[Panda_]

I think the thread had diverged much from its original post. It was about its internal unit flaws, lack in its design. Now it's more about fluff listing, and comparaison to the 3.5 codex...

 

I have already stated that one hint of codex's lackluster taste was that noone else bother correcting their playstyle to face us.

 

While we have ranged tools to provide a good "distraction", our codex is Assault Oriented but our units are lacking any means to stabilise assaults (aside from Bike deathstars). We seems to rely on "luck", we don't have anything to control it. This is to me our first internal flaw.

 

The second one is that we are relying on Allies to close the gap, but we don't have many allies to choose.

 

To correct and close the fluff complaints, the option to buy the warlord traits Master of Deception, Lord of Terror, Hatred Incarnate, Exalted Champion instead of rolling it would be fine (notice that I mention neither Black Crusader nor Flames of Spite).

[Kol Saresk]

Out of curiosity, is Fear really worth anything as a rule? What armies can still not only be affected, but actually have a chance of failing the related test?

 

@Slayer: that's my primary beef with it. It's not even a list based on fluff but because of its existence, people percieve it to be fluffy.

 

The problem, which of the Legion lists everyone wants are fluffy? How do you show that the Night Lords scout their targets, cut their legs out from under them(e.g. Destroy communications, cut off supply lines and make patrols disappear) and then kill them? Make them FA that simply hits harder than the rest? Give them Nightvision when Night apparently seems such a rarely used thing? Or give them Stealth skills so they only have increased cover, when they are in cover? Is that what a Night Lord is, someone who can see in the dark, moves faster than a speeding nurse and makes great use of cover?

 

And the Alpha Legion, how do you show that years of preparation went into attempting to make this battle a fixed battle? Do you just give them Infiltrate so in the first turn or so, they're practically invisible? Is that their decades or centuries that went into the plan? Or perhaps you give them Cultists, who are the only units who can carry Icons that can summon daemons? So they're sneaky sneakies who rely on Cultists to do everything but fight? What do you do for the battle that catches them offguard? How do you show that without "killing the fluff" of the army?

 

And the Word Bearers? Oh they're easy. You just make them a daemon bomb. Forget the fact that right there in the fluff is the statement that each Host varies depending on the Dark Apostle that leads it. Every Host is the same and they all use Daemons as standard troops. And all of them worship the Dark Gods, but apparently none are willing to recieve their blessing unless it's a Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

 

It's funny how someone made the comment "The Legions were universal in 30k with only a few minor differences. But in 40k they are so much more diverse from each other." So what diversity is new? Seriously, what diversity is new? In 30k, the SoH were egomaniacs who hit hard and fast at the enemy's command structure. The Word Bearers were religious zealots. The World Eaters were crazed berzerkers except for a few moments of sanity. The KSons were more interested in knowledge than fighting. The Night Lords used terror tactics to utterly break an opponent's will.

 

Just to list a few examples. Now let's fast forward that list to 40k. The Black Legion still aims for the command structure first. They're just aiming for Terra and killing everything in their way. The Word Bearers are still zealots. The World Eaters are still berzerkers. There might be less sanity involved but they have to get from Point A to Point B without wiping each other out. The KSons are still primarily interested in knowledge. And the Night Lords still love to use terror tactics. So what exactly has changed enough to make them all go from sharing a base list template with a few different extra entries specific to each "Legion"? Is it Cult Troops? So four Legions get special, unique Troop choices but no longer have Cult Termies for their Elites.

 

And completely different lists? Completely different? Are you sure that's the wording you want to use? Okay, here we go. Here are the six basic troop choices of the Chaos Space Marines army. Basic CSM, Cultists, Berzerkers, PM, NM and KSons. So that means there can only be six different lists that have completely different Troop choices from each other. As you start delving into the other FOC slots, this "diversity" begins to disappear. So you want a shooty list? You can focus around PM, NM, KSons and basic CSM. You want footsloggers? Again, PM, KSons and CSM. You want a CC, mobile army? Berzerkers and CSM. Somewhere, Cultists fit in. Not many different builds are there? Or do you mean lists? Well in that case, every list that existed then exists now. Maybe not in the same form, so it might require some creative thinking to get it working. Like one person, who has a KSons list with Tzeentch Daemon allies. Iron Warriors can ally Traitor Guard artillery. If a Night Lords player is really that desperate for an extra FA slot, ally it in. So despite what people think, the Legion lists, are still there. They may not be exactly the same, and they may work a little differently but they are there. They just require creative thinking.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Maybe it's just me, but Alpha Legion seems to be much more fluffy to me when played using C:SM - not by any fault on the C:CSM, but because that waht they seem fully disguised, tricking the local populace and occasional enemies that they are a loyalist chapter.

 

*ducks for cover*

[Minsc]

Out of curiosity, is Fear really worth anything as a rule? What armies can still not only be affected, but actually have a chance of failing the related test?

 

The main issue with fear, is that those opponents you want to fail their fear-test (i.e other melee-units) are usually ATSKNF or Fearless.

 

Orks are usually fearless. Small boysquads can fail fear, but they are not a threat.

Tau can fail fear, but they usually die the same.

SoB's close combat units are afaik fearless, regular sisters loose to marines in combat all the same.

All Marine-armies ignore Fear.

Tyranids are pretty much fearless across the board.

Necrons have five dedicated close combat units: three of those are fearless, the other two are rarely taken anyway. Also Ld10 across the board.

 

Which leaves Eldar and Dark Eldar as the only armies where Fear can actually help against their melee-units. Both have accéss to fearless though, should they really want it.

 

All in all, no - Fear is not worth anything as a rule, which is seen on our Nurgle Icons. They afaik cost 10 pts across the board, and 5 of those pts are for the +1 CR, which means that we pay 5 pts for Fear.

I'm not how much our Daemonic Engines and Daemon Prince/Possessed/Warptalons/Mutilators/Obliterators pay for fear, but I'm pretty sure they pay something, which is already too much.

 

Fear in 40k is a gimmick and a fluffrule.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, thanks. I was sure it was worthless but since people were so insistent on its existence, I wondered if it actually had any value.

[Hellios]

You could easily solve the fear issues by giving NLs a rule that means units they are fighting against don't get to use ATSKNF, Stubborn, Fearless and the like.

[Slayer le Boucher]

I'm not saying that this was the best for NL, just pointing out that it wasn't that terrible, also they did had the Discretion rule for +1pts IIRC, wich was a bit different back then.

 

A way to add to NL would be a -1 on your foe's reserves rolls, while you get a +1, after all IG's and i think Nids can do this allready.

 

Also after deployment each non-vehicle unit takes 1D6 S4 hits, for ambushes or something.

 

Also they have Fear, but then even the Fear rule needs to be changed...

 

Like it works even on models with ATSKNF, just that they can rethrow the results.

 

For Wordbearers that a tricky one, a real tricky one...

 

Back in 3.5 they emphasied on heavy use of Deamons, the problem nowadays is that even if you can take deamons has allies, there is nearly no interaction/synergie between the two..., or with any other ally when you think about it.

 

Maybe that would be a new thing, having true synergy with units from another dex?

 

Or to avoid the deamon Bomb has you said, make each Champion of the army have Zealot?, but then it might be a "bit" OP..., yeah WB is a tricky one.

 

For Alphas, i must admit that i'm a bit to a lose has what to do with them...

 

Like you say, they are much more then Cultists using guys...

 

Now a thing poped in my mind, in various occasions through the fluff and books, Alphas use infiltrated agents, that when the times comes, do what they where told to do years before.

 

So why not have a special Elite unit, 3 to 10 models, Chosen stats and options, but they only get on the table the same way a Callidus assasin?

 

Don't remember the rule exactly but something like, you can assigne one to three models of the unit to a ennemy unit, each turn you can reveal up to 6 models, those models are deployed 1" away from the ennemy unit wich they where assigned, they can move, shoot and assault as normal.

 

If you reveal a Dormant Agent the targeted unit is in panic and dissaray, they have to make a Pinning test when the Dormant Agents are revealed.

 

Dormant Agents can take drugs, and use mimisise technique to such degree that they can even perform their tasks and mission admist the most strange and alien creatures be it Tyranids or Orks.

 

Ok its a bit weird...

 

Or simplier, each turn you can force a ennemy unit to take a Pinning test, the ennemy soldiers becomes so disthrustfull of their comrades that they don't do anything but watching their back for themselfs, if a unit is Fearless, they instead lash out at each others, each model in the unit makes 1 melee attack against is own unit.

 

 

Its simple tricks, but i'm no game designer and while in Know everything about WE i'm a bit of a lose when it comes to others Legions, but yeah i understand what you mean, we need much more then just 3 lines of text & rules to make a legion, and its not something easy.

[Vesper]

Oh it would be so freaking easy to make some legions "traits", that's what is shameful. Here's some ideas, from the top of my head :

BL : Got a Chaos version of ATSKNF + Abaddon can take a retinue of Chosen terminators that is part of the HQ slot he takes.

NL : Fear, Leadership modifiers, Night Vision, Stealth Adept (like in 3.5), and why not something to force a Night Fight (to illustrate their tendancy to engage a fight when they have the upper hand).

AL : Rerolls its failed reserve rolls if wished, -1 to the enemy reserve rolls, better cultists/renegades (giving them a USR or something), can flank, HQ got the Master of Deception trait, better chance to rob the first turn maybe...

WB : Elite units got the Zealot USR, better Dark Apostle (3HP, more options like terminator armor and stuff), maybe get a bonus when allied with daemons.

IW : Tank Hunters from 3.5, better Chaos tech guy (3HP, more options, etc), can trade one of their FA choice for a HS one, if they wish.

WE/TS/DG/EC : A buff of cult units, or something like basic CSM with the mark of Slaanesh in an EC army get the bonus from the icon without having to purchase it. Or more simple, those armies just get access to their god's wargear and tweaks, like in 3.5.

 

Just rushed the whole thing and it's surely imbalanced or something, but as you can see, with a little work, that's far from impossible.

[Kol Saresk]

And yet they are options rather than lists. Might only be a technical difference, but still a difference.

[Brother Ambroz]

I really do think all the legion rules could be easily resolved with veteran skills. It'd allow players to play whatever aspect of their legion they want. You want stealthy AL or NL? Give them infiltrate or stealth. You want your AL (for whatever reason) to be seige specialists like IW? Give them the tank buster one. Wouldn't even have to be these rules in particular, could be new ones altogether. Just make them purchaseable by all marine like units.

[Smurfalypse]

I am usually the type to take the path of "If I have nothing nice to say, I wont say anything at all" in regards to posting. This next reply with not add much of anything to this thread, but I feel I must say it.

 

 

Get over it. This is the codex you have, and I understand a little bit of angst because you didnt get exactly what you were hoping for. No cult Terms, no legion specific stuff (Thank god), and some units are inserted and have no real place (news flash, all codexs have units that are trash and poorly inserted into the whole of their codex).

 

This codex is not THAT BAD. It certainly isnt the 3.5 that all of you are wishing for, but no codex will ever be. Get over it, you basically have four or five codexs to work with (allies) to help make this one a little bit more fun. I have played a dozen games now with it,12-0 at this point, with very little effort on my part. This is me using units I would NEVER use in a competative environment and part of it is the fact that most people have no idea what the new CSM codex does. Once people understand what is happening I am sure it will be much harder for me to win <_<

 

The more important part is that I find the CSM codex fun. There are 3 very viable HQs we can choose from (Sorcerer, Lord, Prince), 2 rock solid troop choices (CSMs and Cultists), 4 fast attacks that are playable (Spawn, Raptors, Bikers and the Hell Drake), a bunch of heavies that are playable (Forgefiend, Oblits, Predator, Land Raider, Vindy is okay, Defiler, Havocs), the elites are a bit tight and this is somehow now our weakest slot (terms are great, the rest are not so great but a few other playable things out there. Zerkers are okay, PMs are good as usual, Noice Marines are okay, Chosen are average at best but playable).

 

Point is, there are a TON of options for the casual gamer (which most of you are). Because you did not get exactly what you were wanting (3.5 codex) does not make this codex a failure. There are things that are not good I admit and some things I wish they had done different, again I admit. But every codex is like that and THIS exact thread as been at the top for what seems like a very long time.

 

Here is my list of issues.

Mark on the Prince is forced, do not like that at all.

Mutilators do the same thing and have nothing special over terminators. Spot was wasted.

Forgefiend/Mauler are both a bit over priced for what they do.

No new transport options (This is the one thing I wish they had added for us).

A few more Daemon Weapons (very minor complaint here).

 

That is it, nothing major is wrong. Get over it, the 3.5 codex is NOT coming back ;)

[meeper]

I am usually the type to take the path of "If I have nothing nice to say, I wont say anything at all" in regards to posting. This next reply with not add much of anything to this thread, but I feel I must say it.

 

 

You should have gone with your first instinct. <_<

 

 

This codex is not THAT BAD. It certainly isnt the 3.5 that all of you are wishing for, but no codex will ever be. Get over it, you basically have four or five codexs to work with (allies) to help make this one a little bit more fun. I have played a dozen games now with it,12-0 at this point, with very little effort on my part. This is me using units I would NEVER use in a competative environment and part of it is the fact that most people have no idea what the new CSM codex does. Once people understand what is happening I am sure it will be much harder for me to win

 

Where does this false accusation that anyone wants the 3.5 codex back? We wanted a codex with effort put in to it. Its clear that this entire codex, while not bad, is half hearted at best.

[Vesper]

And yet they are options rather than lists. Might only be a technical difference, but still a difference.

 

I'm not asking for more.

 

Yet you'll notice that slight bonuses like I previously proposed tend to focus legion game play in a perticular direction (which is the point), and that give birth to lists.

But if you want true lists, and individual codices, that shouldn't be that hard. If Dark Angels or Black Templars can have a codex, it should far from impossible to make a codex per legion.

 

EDIT : But, of course, nothing really new will ever happen to Chaos, because that would require too much work and playtesting. And GW likes to rush things. Example : the numerous retarded printing errors in our brand new 60$ hardback kickass codex, and the obvious lack of playtesting in the codex-writing process.

[Smurfalypse]

I am usually the type to take the path of "If I have nothing nice to say, I wont say anything at all" in regards to posting. This next reply with not add much of anything to this thread, but I feel I must say it.

 

 

You should have gone with your first instinct. ;)

 

 

This codex is not THAT BAD. It certainly isnt the 3.5 that all of you are wishing for, but no codex will ever be. Get over it, you basically have four or five codexs to work with (allies) to help make this one a little bit more fun. I have played a dozen games now with it,12-0 at this point, with very little effort on my part. This is me using units I would NEVER use in a competative environment and part of it is the fact that most people have no idea what the new CSM codex does. Once people understand what is happening I am sure it will be much harder for me to win

 

Where does this false accusation that anyone wants the 3.5 codex back? We wanted a codex with effort put in to it. Its clear that this entire codex, while not bad, is half hearted at best.

 

Everything that is "missing" are thinigs that the 3.5 dex had and NO OTHER CSM Codex has. So yeah, people are certainly saying that they want the 3.5 dex back, you can agree or not, but that is the truth of it.

 

Far from half hearted, but I guess we will just have to disagree with that <_<

[Agerjag]

And yet they are options rather than lists. Might only be a technical difference, but still a difference.

 

I'm not asking for more.

 

Yet you'll notice that slight bonuses like I previously proposed tend to focus legion game play in a perticular direction (which is the point), and that give birth to lists.

But if you want true lists, and individual codices, that shouldn't be that hard. If Dark Angels or Black Templars can have a codex, it should be kinda far from impossible to make a codex per legion.

 

EDIT : But, of course, that will never ever happen, because that would require too much work and playtesting. And GW likes to rush things. Example : the numerous retarded printing errors in our brand new 60$ hardback kickass codex, and the obvious lack of playtesting in the codex-writing process.

While not hard it is not really a good financial choice as that increases their developement cycle at least 2 years and nobody wants that.

[Vesper]

Only if they a keep a game-design team composed of three guys.

[Vilicate]

Everything that is "missing" are thinigs that the 3.5 dex had and NO OTHER CSM Codex has. So yeah, people are certainly saying that they want the 3.5 dex back, you can agree or not, but that is the truth of it.

 

Yup. Been barking up this tree. People completely wanted this to be a return to 3.5 land, and while that ride was fun, I'd prefer a balanced book that still allows for lots of options. Which is something that this book clearly does, but it being a little generic means people are going to complain.

 

I wouldn't worry, if the new Fantasy books are anything to judge by, I think once books get redone this edition is going to be balanced as all hell. Which is great!

[meeper]

It is pretty half hearted. Which is a shame because our demon weapons had a decent backstory behind each of them, it just seems like they left out a page.

 

Dark Apostles? Copy and Paste chappys from the SM codex with the same marks we have had since 3rd.

 

Chaos Lord with no viable AP2 CC weapon outside of the Axe that forces one to take a mark? No attempt whatsoever to give demon weapons to slannesh or nurgle? Pretty lazy. A khorne lord is pretty much the go to HQ in this edition.

 

Sorc- Nurgle and Slaanesh lores are useful in their own particular ways while the tzeench lore is laughable. The mark of tzeench does less than it in did in the gav dex as far as the asp sorc is concerned, not sure why it had to be nerfed.

 

Chosen- Veteran SM, copy and pasted, this would have been the PERFECT unit for veteran skills. It practically screams it.

 

Termies- same exact options that they have had since last edition, not that they needed much of a change. I actually kind of like the fact that the icons for khorne and slannesh make them borderline cult termies. Nurgle and Tzeench banners are pretty useless however.

 

DP- with no access to eternal warrior or conventional marks, they got creative with the demon dedications, yet this is the one unit that could have benefited from having access to normal marks (except for slannesh).

 

Tsons- Do I really need to go there?

 

Possessed- So much potential with the new chaos gifts chart yet were hamstrung into the pitiful 3 mutation chart. and has been said, no frag grenades.

 

Warp Talons- WAYYYYYYYYYYY overpriced for what they do, this unit would have been better as a single model upgrade to a raptor rather than given its own unit.

 

I think they had a lot going for the codex in terms of the synergy with the marks and banners. Yet they started off with some great ideas but just sort of abandoned it for safer options.

 

as Maili as said in so many words this codex had great potential but falls short in such puzzling ways that make it all the more frustrating.

 

but it being a little generic means people are going to complain.

 

take out the word little and you would have hit the nail on the head

[Smurfalypse]

It is pretty half hearted. Which is a shame because our demon weapons had a decent backstory behind each of them, it just seems like they left out a page.

 

Dark Apostles? Copy and Paste chappys from the SM codex with the same marks we have had since 3rd.

 

Chaos Lord with no viable AP2 CC weapon outside of the Axe that forces one to take a mark? No attempt whatsoever to give demon weapons to slannesh or nurgle? Pretty lazy. A khorne lord is pretty much the go to HQ in this edition.

 

Sorc- Nurgle and Slaanesh lores are useful in their own particular ways while the tzeench lore is laughable. The mark of tzeench does less than it in did in the gav dex as far as the asp sorc is concerned, not sure why it had to be nerfed.

 

Chosen- Veteran SM, copy and pasted, this would have been the PERFECT unit for veteran skills. It practically screams it.

 

Termies- same exact options that they have had since last edition, not that they needed much of a change. I actually kind of like the fact that the icons for khorne and slannesh make them borderline cult termies. Nurgle and Tzeench banners are pretty useless however.

 

DP- with no access to eternal warrior or conventional marks, they got creative with the demon dedications, yet this is the one unit that could have benefited from having access to normal marks (except for slannesh).

 

Tsons- Do I really need to go there?

 

Possessed- So much potential with the new chaos gifts chart yet were hamstrung into the pitiful 3 mutation chart. and has been said, no frag grenades.

 

Warp Talons- WAYYYYYYYYYYY overpriced for what they do, this unit would have been better as a single model upgrade to a raptor rather than given its own unit.

 

I think they had a lot going for the codex in terms of the synergy with the marks and banners. Yet they started off with some great ideas but just sort of abandoned it for safer options.

 

as Maili as said in so many words this codex had great potential but falls short in such puzzling ways that make it all the more frustrating.

 

I agree with most of what you posted here as far as the issues go.

I think the Chaos Lord is fine with the Mace or even the Lightning Claw/Power Fist setup. I use the Mace all the time and he just brutalizes anything he comes across.

 

The Daemon Prince is less of an issue than it has been made out to be. I have only run him once I admit, but he went berzerk on my opponent and killed about triple his points cost. I was in absolute shock at how easy it was for him to kill an entire unit of anything. I did get a bit lucky on my psykic powers and ended up with Iron Arm from Biomancy (had an 8 toughness turns two and three).

 

Those are the two things I have minor disagreements with. Nothing huge obviously, just from what I have played (The Lord A LOT, the Prince NOT so much).

 

Here is the overall issue with what people are posting and why it is a little annoying to see it up at the top for a week or so :D

You listed things and truthfully they are such a small number of things in the overall scope of things that it is not abnormal in comparison to other codexs. Every codex has units that are trash and nearly unplayable, even the best ones. Just feels like it got to the point of whining and figured I would throw in some counter weight to it all.

 

I am playing very competitively right now, have played a few regular tourny players and put the boots to them medium style. Played a few games that were more fluffy and fun, used their codex as toilet paper. That obviously means others will not get the same results, but truthfully I find it rather fun (I am a purist Word Bearer player as wel, no marks). I can run my army just fine, with or without Daemons allies.

[Son of Carnelian]

I really like the new codex. I do not think it suffers from a lack of identity. I think it's chaotic and varied, which suits an army with the word "chaos" in its name just fine. If you want to do the things you say, like have a focused list from a certain legion, the book has ways for you to do it (unlike 4th). Nearly everything can be marked and there are almost no restrictions on what you can do. How can that be a problem?

 

In fact, with Veterans of the Long War, I think the book has one great unifying factor despite all the options. Is it a perfect book? Of course not. I would love legion rules and some new special characters. But lack of identity? No way.

[Vaz]

I would have liked a rulebook that to match its flexibility of options ensured all options were valid and reasonable when compared to the existing army books available to players of the game. A book that considered what the list already had and was historically known for and built complementary additions to this foundation, as well as took time to revamp previous ideas that were not popular or needless.

 

Did Chaos really need ANOTHER melee specialist? Product driven move to eventually pop out a plastic kit with Oblits and Mutilators.. also both units lack fearless... why? These units are mutated and infused with demonic powers... and are only a point of LD above Orks. Now had obliterators been an ENDURANCE based melee specialist (our answer for TH+SS) they would not been competiting against our other choppy units and actually have a place in the book.

 

Icon sniping was something popular in 5th already, why further perpetuate the problem? Why not take a cue from Fantasy and allow a regular squad member within 2" pick up the Icon? From what standpoint does it make sense, fluff wise? risk vs return wise?

 

The utter shame that is the Chaos armory. It's like the Black Mace was finalized, a pat on the back issued, and then the rest of the armory forgotten. For an army that has 10,000 year old veterans of countless battles with the power of the gods behind them this part of the book is disappointing and really does feel half fished and lack luster.

 

Then there is the tax on all unit champions for having access to the chaos boon table, therefore having to pay character level equipment prices for everything and being stuck having to challenge no matter what. I understand and appreciate the thought that went into the table and the idea behind the table. I feel this is a very one dimensional look at a chaos champion and think it serves as a handicap as much as a boon. If you could purchase the option to roll on this table and in the same regard earned the right to be fearless, that would be neat. Also not having special rules omitting Special Characters from the table seems like a lack of thought, why would these venerated dark-heroes of chaos suddenly change on this one battle? Frankly I feel the table is a great idea for a campaign system but on an individual battle level is unreasonable/unnecessary. I really feel like purchasing upgrades through demonic rewards would have made more sense.

 

Why is there no Chaos artificer armor? I remember seeing flesh metal in some of the teasers and thinking, oh a Chaos 2+, great! WRONG. Chaos cannot do better than 3+ on power armor, this shuts a door on all cool modeling potential for a regular PA lord. Here's your terminator armor, NEXT. In an edition that you make it very clear that 2+/3+ was night and day in close combat, wasn't this a consideration?

 

Wargear options for Warpsmiths and Dark Apostle, where are they? They are just about as customizable as unit champions. Pathetic.

 

Where are Cult Terminators? Why are Chaos Terminators (arguably the meanest, most brutal chaos marines out there), not fearless? Was it not worth considering merging this option into the chosen option and having a very custom build unit entry that covered many various options (term, bike, raptor, etc.) in one sitting. Another spot where chaos could have received flesh metal armor on a unit as old as time. I'd feel safer paying the points cost and for the 2A base and throwing them into melee. Where is the exotic chaos terminator weaponry that could be envisioned? What about power scourge terminators? (2x Str, specialist, same attack deductions).

 

Where was the hot as hell chosen plastic kit to match your amazing DV models? I could go on, and on.

 

What I would have liked with this book is an actual attempt to put forth a credible piece of work that reflected not only the fluff but the meta in which the book lives. GW already disappointed players of this army with the last codex. For an army that has strong Forgeworld support through both the 40k projects, and now legions covered in the 30k projects, I feel there could have been more revenue opportunities. As a passionate collector of Chaos miniatures I am disappointed by this book to a great extent. As a businessman in my personal life, I am disappointed to see lost revenue opportunities for a company I have and will continue to support moving forward. This book is playable, and I am sure I will have enjoyable games with it. I however feel that a lot more could have been done with this book, especially being the first book to set the tone to which 6th edition moves forward in. I can definitely see where GW could have made better business decisions on what units they added, and kits they picked to publish. So as a collector, consumer, and a gamer, all I can do is scratch my head at this product and say "?"

[Hellios]

The reason people reference the 3.5 codex isn't because they just want that again but because it is the only half decent modern chaos space marine codex. I'm sure some us would be happy to bring in slaves to darkness and the like into this... but the game has changed so much that the comparison isn't that simple.

 

 

Me... I want real rubric terminators...

[Minsc]

I don't want 3.5 back, I really liked it but it's playstyle was way to one-dimensional. Most of my armies (Thousand Sons / World Eaters) looked the same nomatter the pts-size, with some variety in wargear for HQ's/Sergeants.

 

I do however want a modern CSM-codex which is competetive without being overpowered, which has alot of choices which all are viable, with plenty of cool and funky wargear, and with good internal and external balance.

Sadly, our 4th Ed. codex was as vanilla/boring as they come, and while our new codex is a great improvement over our last one, it still falls short on all my wishes.

It's not competetive without allies, it can't even be overpowered even if it tries (3x Heldrakes, then what?)

There is a severe lack of funky wargear, and most of it is rather crappy, and the internal balance is still bad, with several sub-par choices.

 

Will I play with the new codex? Sure, I'll probably enjoy it as well, to some extent. I will still be saddened when I think of "what might have been" though.

Am I pleased with the new codex? No, not really. It feels too much like 4.5, and not 6.0.

Does it annoy me, knowing that I'm stuck with this half-assed (because it is) codex for at least 4-5 years? Yes.

 

At least I still got my Orks and Eldar to play with once I got bored with loosing to cookie-cutter lists.

Either of those two codeci are bound to get an update soon.

[Kol Saresk]

Excessus and Smurf seem to be having good success without using allies. But maybe they're the exception rather than the rule. Dunno.