The real problem with the Chaos Space Marines Codex

[Minsc]

Excessus and Smurf seem to be having good success without using allies. But maybe they're the exception rather than the rule. Dunno.

 

To be fair, so have I so far. I got like 6 wins and 1 loss with the new codex, however the meta at my LGS is quite friendly.

I dread to think about how those of you fare where the meta is much more competetive and tourney-focused.

 

I'm gonna start using allies in the future though (the concept is still new to me), however it won't be Manticores and Vendettas, but some units from the Daemons-Codex because it's fluffy and add some new playstyles to the CSM-codex.

[Brother Amarel]

The Daemon Prince is less of an issue than it has been made out to be. I have only run him once I admit, but he went berzerk on my opponent and killed about triple his points cost. I was in absolute shock at how easy it was for him to kill an entire unit of anything. I did get a bit lucky on my psykic powers and ended up with Iron Arm from Biomancy (had an 8 toughness turns two and three).

That's 310pts :) (assuming cheapest Mark and Wings).

 

I've been running the Black Mace DP and although he kills things dead (whole units in a single phase is not unknown), he will then be killed the following turn as he's invariably out in the open (even if he doesn't wipe them all, Combat Tactics lets them shift out and leaving him hanging in the wind). This can definitely be a boon for the rest of the army (safe for a turn from gunfire), but it also seems a little wasteful.

[Smurfalypse]

Excessus and Smurf seem to be having good success without using allies. But maybe they're the exception rather than the rule. Dunno.

 

To be fair, so have I so far. I got like 6 wins and 1 loss with the new codex, however the meta at my LGS is quite friendly.

I dread to think about how those of you fare where the meta is much more competetive and tourney-focused.

 

I'm gonna start using allies in the future though (the concept is still new to me), however it won't be Manticores and Vendettas, but some units from the Daemons-Codex because it's fluffy and add some new playstyles to the CSM-codex.

 

I have played mostly friendly games as well, but I have also played two pretty hard tourny players and won both fairly handily. Not complete wipes and I did have to work with it, but I won none the less.

 

Part of it is that they do not know all the little things of the codex so they would get surprised from time to time at how hard something hits or how hard it is to kill something in particular (Bikers with Invis cast on them ;)).

[Smurfalypse]

The Daemon Prince is less of an issue than it has been made out to be. I have only run him once I admit, but he went berzerk on my opponent and killed about triple his points cost. I was in absolute shock at how easy it was for him to kill an entire unit of anything. I did get a bit lucky on my psykic powers and ended up with Iron Arm from Biomancy (had an 8 toughness turns two and three).

That's 310pts ;) (assuming cheapest Mark and Wings).

 

I've been running the Black Mace DP and although he kills things dead (whole units in a single phase is not unknown), he will then be killed the following turn as he's invariably out in the open (even if he doesn't wipe them all, Combat Tactics lets them shift out and leaving him hanging in the wind). This can definitely be a boon for the rest of the army (safe for a turn from gunfire), but it also seems a little wasteful.

 

lol yeah. I ran one the other night that was 370pts (mastery level 3 psyker) and it was insane. Was a Daemon of Nurgle and would consolidate behind cover giving myself a 3+/5++/3+cover, was great. Between that and casting Iron Arm on myself he was pretty much impossible to kill. I also rolled up the one that gives you a wound back when you inflict a wound with that power in the shooting phase (forgot the name off hand). He was an absolute monster. Killed about 800pts worth of enemy models and soaked a HUGE amount of fire, never died.

[Azekai]

lol yeah. I ran one the other night that was 370pts (mastery level 3 psyker) and it was insane. Was a Daemon of Nurgle and would consolidate behind cover giving myself a 3+/5++/3+cover, was great. Between that and casting Iron Arm on myself he was pretty much impossible to kill. I also rolled up the one that gives you a wound back when you inflict a wound with that power in the shooting phase (forgot the name off hand). He was an absolute monster. Killed about 800pts worth of enemy models and soaked a HUGE amount of fire, never died.

That . . . does sound pretty awesome . . . ;)

[techsoldaten]

I've been running the Black Mace DP and although he kills things dead (whole units in a single phase is not unknown), he will then be killed the following turn as he's invariably out in the open (even if he doesn't wipe them all, Combat Tactics lets them shift out and leaving him hanging in the wind). This can definitely be a boon for the rest of the army (safe for a turn from gunfire), but it also seems a little wasteful.

Maybe it's just me, but this does sound like a bad choice of tactics moreso than a problem with the Daemon Prince. Situations will arise where a unit is out in the open after abusing another unit, and that's understandable. But a DP is part of an army, and should be used when the model can have the most affect.

 

How about holding the DP back a round or two until other units can get into place to support him? If he is going to go down, how about setting up a threat that will make your opponent suffer for coming at him?

 

I realize a winged DP has a lot of mobility, but mobility allows you to dictate where the battle is going to be. I have seen so many games where a DP is brought racing at the nearest enemy unit, only to be 12 inches ahead of the rest of his army and have no support once he has finished being awesome. It's kind of sad that the mechanics of the game encourage this.

[Emperors Immortals]

I always kind of liked that dynamic, its the only thing holding back the return of HeroHammer.

 

-edit- im also going to try the spawn rush this weekend against IG, lets see how it goes :D

[Brother Amarel]

Maybe it's just me, but this does sound like a bad choice of tactics moreso than a problem with the Daemon Prince. Situations will arise where a unit is out in the open after abusing another unit, and that's understandable. But a DP is part of an army, and should be used when the model can have the most affect.

 

How about holding the DP back a round or two until other units can get into place to support him? If he is going to go down, how about setting up a threat that will make your opponent suffer for coming at him?

 

I realize a winged DP has a lot of mobility, but mobility allows you to dictate where the battle is going to be. I have seen so many games where a DP is brought racing at the nearest enemy unit, only to be 12 inches ahead of the rest of his army and have no support once he has finished being awesome. It's kind of sad that the mechanics of the game encourage this.

Thank you for the assumed lack of ability on my part. However, lets make a couple of safe assumptions:

 

** The board is set-up in a fairly standard way with a couple of larger pieces of scenery (hills, woods, buildings) and then a few smaller bits (a short barricade or two, some chainlink fences, the odd pile of barrels).

** Your opponents know the game well enough to be aware of big threats, or are at least savvy enough to be worried about a big threat once they realise what it is.

 

If you're going to throw him forward in the first round or two (as you suggest I may be doing) then he's dead before he even makes it to the opponent's army. Even Swooping he'll get taken out by Skyfire or weight of shots from small arms fire. Yes, you've possibly bought an early turn of safety for the rest of your force, but there are cheaper ways to do that.

 

So you'll likely spend a couple of turns shifting him around the board to positions of safety to threaten your opponent and force his movement somewhat, whilst hopefully preventing him from fully committing to his plans. When there is a decent target in range, you go for that, however once you do this you will likely have a Monstrous Creature out in the open unless your opponent is a terrible player and left a tasty target marooned without any support even within firing range or right next to a handy piece of big scenery to consolidate into. As I've noted already, this will give the rest of your force a break and this can be vital in terms of getting them into better positions / keeping them alive.

 

You can, of course, hold him back until the end game and let him pick off stragglers, but that assumes that the rest of your force can make enough of an impact to do this without his 300pts of help, which isn't guaranteed.

 

Of course any of this is adapted on a game to game basis, but knowing what he'll likely achieve in a game is a very important part of army building.

 

I'm happy to listen to any particular tactics you might have to keep this guy safe (who has worse armour than a Terminator), but please don't assume that I run my DP out in front like an idiot (which is what you've done so far) or that my opponents are unable to play the game.

[the jeske]

Where are Cult Terminators? Why are Chaos Terminators (arguably the meanest, most brutal chaos marines out there), not fearless? Was it not worth considering merging this option into the chosen option and having a very custom build unit entry that covered many various options (term, bike, raptor, etc.) in one sitting. Another spot where chaos could have received flesh metal armor on a unit as old as time. I'd feel safer paying the points cost and for the 2A base and throwing them into melee. Where is the exotic chaos terminator weaponry that could be envisioned? What about power scourge terminators? (2x Str, specialist, same attack deductions).

yeah . imagine we had no terminator entry . just chosen with the option to buy bikes , termi armor and packs. they would cost a lot more then other armies bikers and termis and bit more then sang guard jump packers without the +2sv . but man whole 3 new builds just through taking abadon . mind blowing.

[Spacelizard]

I only partially agree with you. I do agree that Chaos has a lot of depth in terms of different legions and such but at the same time this codex only needed a few more lines of text and it would have encompassed everyone.

 

If you really look at it with regards to the specific legions the only one that really got left out is the Night Lords. All they needed to do was make biker lords make bikes troops and jump pack lords make raptors troops and Night Lords would be covered. The only other legion that sort of got the shaft is Iron Warriors and even then if they had just made warpsmiths alter the force org to let you take more heavy support it would have been perfect.

 

Every other legion can be fielded in a fluffy manner:

World Eaters - Khârn & Berzerkers as troops

Thousand Sons - Ahriman or Sorcerer HQ and Thousands sons as troops

Emperor's Children - Lucius & Noise Marines as Troops

Death Guard - Typhus & Plague Marines as troops

Word Bearers - Dark Apostles, cultists, possessed, Daemon allies

Alpha Legion - cultists and counts as Huron and Ahriman to give infiltrate

Black Legion - Abbadon + anything in the codex since they are undivided

Red Corsairs - not a legion but still a popular army that can easily be fielded fluffy since they are undivided and can take Huron.

 

Traitor/renegade guard can also easily be fielded by taking guard allies with CSM or Daemons.

 

All in all I really feel like the only thing that this book lacks in terms of depth is the ability to take bikes and/or raptors as troops with the appropriate lord.

[Boshea]

I think most people already expressed most points I'd want to make. People want to play their legions, just like loyalist want to play the original chapters. However the fluff keeps wanting to push that the only forces that exists now are non-descript warbands and the Black Legion. So their is no benefit to doing something thematic or trying to play a warband of your legion since you get no benefit on the self-imposed restrictions. The ideal solution is the legion rules getting broken into separate books, but considering the number of codi, or more specifically power armor codi, that already exist it makes keeping everything update a nightmare due to GW's updating process. The only likely way you'll see legion rules is by Forgeworld doing something in an imperial armor (Odds are slim unless you play nurgle, or maybe khorne), or announcing that you can use the HH legion rules outside of 30k games (which is very unlikely).

 

The new book is decent, but I'll agree with jeske that all the new models are very lacking compared to what we've seen done with other books. As always, I'm just bitter over World Eaters going from a decent theme force to near garbage as a combination of all the assault nerfs in the BRB along with +1A changing to Rage+Counterattack. If the rumors are true about DA getting WS5 Deathwing among other silliness, then I'll probably say that this book is worse than 4e.

[Vilicate]

I've been running the Black Mace DP and although he kills things dead (whole units in a single phase is not unknown), he will then be killed the following turn as he's invariably out in the open (even if he doesn't wipe them all, Combat Tactics lets them shift out and leaving him hanging in the wind). This can definitely be a boon for the rest of the army (safe for a turn from gunfire), but it also seems a little wasteful.

 

They don't automatically get away Brother Amarel, they just get to automatically fail their test. They still have to take a I test opposed to yours. And the DP has what, like I8? So only if they roll a 6 and you roll a 1 do they get away.

 

Statistically you won't kill the whole squad in one turn, usually. But it's not super far fetched.

 

I don't disagree with you about getting stuck out the open. He's a dead daemon if that happens.

 

Seriously though, what armies bring enough Anti-Air to kill him in the sky? I'd understand if you got a little unlucky and they knocked him down right off the bat and then pelted you with small arms fire, but that's not something that happens a ton.

 

To be fair, most of my recent FMC experience has come from my Lord of Change, so maybe my view is skewed.

[Brother Amarel]

They don't automatically get away Brother Amarel, they just get to automatically fail their test. They still have to take a I test opposed to yours. And the DP has what, like I8? So only if they roll a 6 and you roll a 1 do they get away.

A touch of over-dramatisation based on a recent experience :).

 

Statistically you won't kill the whole squad in one turn, usually. But it's not super far fetched.

I'm as good at rolling Daemon Weapon rolls as I'm bad at rolling Plasma shots. With VotLW & AP2 on the charge and a good roll you're not leaving much, if anything, behind (and there's something horrible about being sad that you killed that last guy :)).

 

I don't disagree with you about getting stuck out the open. He's a dead daemon if that happens.

Yup.

 

Seriously though, what armies bring enough Anti-Air to kill him in the sky? I'd understand if you got a little unlucky and they knocked him down right off the bat and then pelted you with small arms fire, but that's not something that happens a ton.

They just need to get lucky once to bring him down and putting him out there makes for a very tempting target.

[SamaNagol]

The Chaos Space Marine codex is the perfect example of why there are different Loyalist Chapter Codexes. You cannot fit everything in one book and make it balanced and competitive without over costing it out of fear of making something utterly broken.

[Captain Idaho]

You know, I didn't mean for this thread to go in this direction! It was actually recognition about whether GW could fully support Chaos in the two books it has, or whether it should have three like Fantasy does!

[Prot]

You know, I didn't mean for this thread to go in this direction! It was actually recognition about whether GW could fully support Chaos in the two books it has, or whether it should have three like Fantasy does!

 

I know you didn't intend for it to this way, but considering the name of the topic and how a lot of people feel since Gav-dex, it's kind of expected. Still I think it's been more positive this time around.

 

We're still learning it to a great degree, and testing it out in various scenarios. If we are talking strictly about 'fully' supporting chaos in this codex? Heck no. Can you represent your legion? That's too broad a term... a paint colour could do that. :lol:

[Captain Idaho]

You know, I didn't mean for this thread to go in this direction! It was actually recognition about whether GW could fully support Chaos in the two books it has, or whether it should have three like Fantasy does!

 

I know you didn't intend for it to this way, but considering the name of the topic and how a lot of people feel since Gav-dex, it's kind of expected. Still I think it's been more positive this time around.

 

We're still learning it to a great degree, and testing it out in various scenarios. If we are talking strictly about 'fully' supporting chaos in this codex? Heck no. Can you represent your legion? That's too broad a term... a paint colour could do that. :)

 

I don't mind of course, it's an open enough topic for people to enjoy themselves. :tu:

[Vilicate]

The book adequitely fulfills what GW considers to be Chaos Marines at this time. I'm not going to argue how much of their IP is applicable. Legion warbands with different rules are a thing of the past.

[Smurfalypse]

I think most people already expressed most points I'd want to make. People want to play their legions, just like loyalist want to play the original chapters. However the fluff keeps wanting to push that the only forces that exists now are non-descript warbands and the Black Legion. So their is no benefit to doing something thematic or trying to play a warband of your legion since you get no benefit on the self-imposed restrictions. The ideal solution is the legion rules getting broken into separate books, but considering the number of codi, or more specifically power armor codi, that already exist it makes keeping everything update a nightmare due to GW's updating process. The only likely way you'll see legion rules is by Forgeworld doing something in an imperial armor (Odds are slim unless you play nurgle, or maybe khorne), or announcing that you can use the HH legion rules outside of 30k games (which is very unlikely).

 

The new book is decent, but I'll agree with jeske that all the new models are very lacking compared to what we've seen done with other books. As always, I'm just bitter over World Eaters going from a decent theme force to near garbage as a combination of all the assault nerfs in the BRB along with +1A changing to Rage+Counterattack. If the rumors are true about DA getting WS5 Deathwing among other silliness, then I'll probably say that this book is worse than 4e.

 

Just to point out the DA rumor thing, we had EXACTLY the same rumors right before our codex was released. 2W Chosen Terminators, WS5, ect ect. It was literally the same litany of BS that was thrown out for us, so I wouldn't get to bent out of shape as that stuff is probably just a pile of trash.

 

Though if it happens, I will have to be wondering what happened to us as well :P

[Lepaca]

Just to point out the DA rumor thing, we had EXACTLY the same rumors right before our codex was released. 2W Chosen Terminators, WS5, ect ect. It was literally the same litany of BS that was thrown out for us, so I wouldn't get to bent out of shape as that stuff is probably just a pile of trash.

 

Yeah but Ward is doing the DA codex. So I remain pessimistic.

[Brother Ambroz]

Just to point out the DA rumor thing, we had EXACTLY the same rumors right before our codex was released. 2W Chosen Terminators, WS5, ect ect. It was literally the same litany of BS that was thrown out for us, so I wouldn't get to bent out of shape as that stuff is probably just a pile of trash.

 

Yeah but Ward is doing the DA codex. So I remain pessimistic.

 

I agree with Lepaca, if even half of those rumors are true then the're not toning down the codex levels at all. The rumors also do sound like Ward-level bull :cuss so there's a possiblity they could be true. Our rumors were never that crazy, for example the rumor about Belial has him at 2+/2++, EW and some special relic blade. None of our rumors were ever that nuts.

[techsoldaten]

Thank you for the assumed lack of ability on my part. However, lets make a couple of safe assumptions:

Man, I did not mean for that to come across sounding like a personal attack. I was deriding the use of DPs in general, and the 'rush at all costs' mentality I see so often. Please forgive me for coming across as if I was trying to say you are a bad player, that was not my intent.

 

** The board is set-up in a fairly standard way with a couple of larger pieces of scenery (hills, woods, buildings) and then a few smaller bits (a short barricade or two, some chainlink fences, the odd pile of barrels).

** Your opponents know the game well enough to be aware of big threats, or are at least savvy enough to be worried about a big threat once they realise what it is.

 

If you're going to throw him forward in the first round or two (as you suggest I may be doing) then he's dead before he even makes it to the opponent's army. Even Swooping he'll get taken out by Skyfire or weight of shots from small arms fire. Yes, you've possibly bought an early turn of safety for the rest of your force, but there are cheaper ways to do that.

I have seen this over and over again in 5th edition armies. The idea was to get the DP stuck in before he can get shot up. The thing that is different is, most 6th edition armies don't have a ton of skyfire options. The risks of being in the air, imho, are often better than those that come with being on the ground. But point taken.

 

So you'll likely spend a couple of turns shifting him around the board to positions of safety to threaten your opponent and force his movement somewhat, whilst hopefully preventing him from fully committing to his plans. When there is a decent target in range, you go for that, however once you do this you will likely have a Monstrous Creature out in the open unless your opponent is a terrible player and left a tasty target marooned without any support even within firing range or right next to a handy piece of big scenery to consolidate into. As I've noted already, this will give the rest of your force a break and this can be vital in terms of getting them into better positions / keeping them alive.

Well, there will possibly be a Monstrous Creature caught out in the open. This assumes the DP is assaulting out in front of the rest of the army and there's no one else there to provide him a flank. With a little coordination between units, there are other ways that can come down.

 

I mean, this is 6th edition and we have really tough biker units with almost the same movement who could assault in the same turn to away opportunities for other units to attack once the DP finishes his business. Then there are terminators, who have a really good chance of deepstriking on turns 3+, who could intercede and cut off shots. Then there are Rhinos, I would rather have an opponent eat up 35 points of APC weakness than my 300pt DP. Then there are cultists, a well timed attack that puts them between an enemy and the DP could make a big difference.

 

You can, of course, hold him back until the end game and let him pick off stragglers, but that assumes that the rest of your force can make enough of an impact to do this without his 300pts of help, which isn't guaranteed.

 

Of course any of this is adapted on a game to game basis, but knowing what he'll likely achieve in a game is a very important part of army building.

 

I'm happy to listen to any particular tactics you might have to keep this guy safe (who has worse armour than a Terminator), but please don't assume that I run my DP out in front like an idiot (which is what you've done so far) or that my opponents are unable to play the game.

I get your point that a DP can come in, wipe out a unit, and be left vulnerable. I have seen that often myself and get tired of watching the big guys go down like that. I am really just attempting to encourage some creative thought about ways to keep him alive past his initial assault, and hope my comments are understood in that spirit.

 

From my POV, the tactics for keeping a DP alive and useful on the board are very different than they were in the previous edition. I disagree with the idea that skyfire is an effective defense against DPs, it relies on people hitting him and there are often limited options available for how to do this. I have not played a DP under 6th edition rules, but I have seen numerous games where he's shrugged off skyfire while zooming around the center of the board. So, for one thing, I would keep him in the air at all times until he is ready to strike. Cover is just cover, it means enemies can still shoot at you so long as you are on the ground. Flying means people are going to waste a lot of shots trying to take you down.

 

Secondly, it's important to focus on coordinated strikes in 40k in general. The specific kinds of coordination necessary for a DP to avoid one-and-out type assaults would have to rely on other units engaging simultaneously, either by assaulting or by simply putting themselves between the DP and their attacker. In either case, the DP is less vulnerable because he is under cover from another unit, or because there is another threat presenting itself at the right time. 6th edition rules give us a lot more mobility in general, and it seems like this tactic is at least a little more realistic under this set of rules. We have the units that can move and are tough enough to get there.

 

Finally, and most importantly, tactics are generally part of an overall strategy for how to win, and the greater mobility we enjoy under 6th edition rules should be allowing us to decide where and when a DP is going to strike. You mentioned the idea of dropping in on a lonely, straggling unit as if it was a rare occurrence. I have played many opponents who leave their big guns / psykers / HQs at the back, undefended but for the space between them and the opponent. A strategy built around bringing a DP in on someone's rearguard could actually be a pretty good one, there are a lot of situations where it would deny the enemy the opportunity to counterattack and leave the DP free to come in against other units afterwards. It might mean waiting a few turns before setting out with the DP, but think about the reaction an opponent is going to have when the DP soars past all the units sent to attack him to go take on his real target. This could be very unsettling and ruin the battle plans of a pure footslogger.

 

Not saying any of this is the right way to use a DP in your force, but that it would be a good idea to reevaluate what he can do in the 6th edition. I just think too many people still use him to get to the enemy quick and tear them apart, there are more nuanced ways of making him effective. Apologies for causing offense with my previous comments.

[the jeske]

it relies on people hitting him and there are often limited options available for how to do this.

it takes 6 shots on avarge from anything to force a grounding test on him . flying MC are a lot worse actual flyers . a hit flyer still has hull points , still has av 12 a flying MC that gets grounded is a dead HQ . ah and if your taking a 300pts HQ then is your only HQ , if you also try to run rhinos and terminators or bikes [no HQ support for either] , that are a treat big enough to draw fire too , then the points you can spend on troops and long range support are realy small .

 

also as "low" skyfire goes . I have yet to see a tournament list that is loyalist and doesnt run ravens/talons or valks . If you play against demons they will have more flying Mc then you and yours will get grounded first . Orcs and nids play shoty lists , both will ground him too . You are talking a lot about the difference in how chaos plays in 6th from how it was run in 5th . I agree with you . But you fail to see or it maybe a question of meta game , that a single uber killy DP[am not going to argue with that . mace DPs kill stuff] is only good against melee based armies . 6th is not a melee friendly edition most armies are shoty . All good armies are build in mind with opponents having 2 flyers , so one can claim that a single DP will just waltz in and clear the field with a unit of bikes or terminators supported with a second wave of rhinos .

It wont fit in to a 1500 army [points limit] and it wont work for a 2k+ army , because for those armies arguments like low skyfire/flyers just arent true.

[Sception]

To me the "real problem" with the chaos book is that we're painfully mediocre at our supposed specialties. We're the 'close combat' marines, but our troopers aren't exactly the best around at that roll (lack of delivery options, vulnerable morale) and our specialists tend to lack the equipment to really shine in that area (assault grenades, storm shields, decent delivery options, etc), while our HQs are supposedly challenge specialists, but they are at best mid to middle low tier duelists, outclassed by marine HQs that can take relic blades or storm shields or artificer armor or adamantine cloaks, let alone anything truely spectacular in challenges like mind shackles.

 

So we give up a lot of power and effectiveness in other areas of the game in order to not really be any better than anyone else at our few specialties, and that's before you consider that those specialties aren't exactly great anyway (6e heavily discourages close combat in general, and challenges are a debuff to the power of melee characters in the first place, not some awesome ability they have, especially when you're forced to be the one issuing the challenges).

 

Overall, it's just not very well thought out, and is needlessly and excessively afraid of being too powerful, while simultaneously failing to show real ambition or enthusiasm from the design staff, resulting in a book with little to get excited about, where the only real strengths appear to be by accident.

[Smurfalypse]

To me the "real problem" with the chaos book is that we're painfully mediocre at our supposed specialties. We're the 'close combat' marines, but our troopers aren't exactly the best around at that roll (lack of delivery options, vulnerable morale) and our specialists tend to lack the equipment to really shine in that area (assault grenades, storm shields, decent delivery options, etc), while our HQs are supposedly challenge specialists, but they are at best mid to middle low tier duelists, outclassed by marine HQs that can take relic blades or storm shields or artificer armor or adamantine cloaks, let alone anything truely spectacular in challenges like mind shackles.

 

So we give up a lot of power and effectiveness in other areas of the game in order to not really be any better than anyone else at our few specialties, and that's before you consider that those specialties aren't exactly great anyway (6e heavily discourages close combat in general, and challenges are a debuff to the power of melee characters in the first place, not some awesome ability they have, especially when you're forced to be the one issuing the challenges).

 

Overall, it's just not very well thought out, and is needlessly and excessively afraid of being too powerful, while simultaneously failing to show real ambition or enthusiasm from the design staff, resulting in a book with little to get excited about, where the only real strengths appear to be by accident.

 

The part I am in full agreement with you on is the feel of it being needlessly and excessively afraid of being to powerful.

I get that feel from the codex as well. This is fine with me as long as they ensure codex creep does not rear its ugly head. If everything is cared for like ours, then great, if not, then we are in for a long un-competitive four or five years.