The real problem with the Chaos Space Marines Codex

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah Mali it's pretty painfully obvious that GW favors their "good guys" over their "bad guys". Especially if any of the DA (Ward-like) rumors come to pass with their new codex, it'll be alot like 4th edition. They made the power levels of the codex go down with us but then Ward comes along and jacks them right back up again.....

[Azekai]

To me the "real problem" with the chaos book is that we're painfully mediocre at our supposed specialties. We're the 'close combat' marines, but our troopers aren't exactly the best around at that roll (lack of delivery options, vulnerable morale) and our specialists tend to lack the equipment to really shine in that area (assault grenades, storm shields, decent delivery options, etc), while our HQs are supposedly challenge specialists, but they are at best mid to middle low tier duelists, outclassed by marine HQs that can take relic blades or storm shields or artificer armor or adamantine cloaks, let alone anything truely spectacular in challenges like mind shackles.

 

So we give up a lot of power and effectiveness in other areas of the game in order to not really be any better than anyone else at our few specialties, and that's before you consider that those specialties aren't exactly great anyway (6e heavily discourages close combat in general, and challenges are a debuff to the power of melee characters in the first place, not some awesome ability they have, especially when you're forced to be the one issuing the challenges).

 

Overall, it's just not very well thought out, and is needlessly and excessively afraid of being too powerful, while simultaneously failing to show real ambition or enthusiasm from the design staff, resulting in a book with little to get excited about, where the only real strengths appear to be by accident.

 

The part I am in full agreement with you on is the feel of it being needlessly and excessively afraid of being to powerful.

I get that feel from the codex as well. This is fine with me as long as they ensure codex creep does not rear its ugly head. If everything is cared for like ours, then great, if not, then we are in for a long un-competitive four or five years.

No, if that happens, we are in for the next 4-5 years being stagnant as the armies that are good now will continue to be good without any competition. No new powerbuilds means no effective change in the meta (outside of half-baked WD updates). The stupid buff to screamers and flamers has made a vast difference in the meta, compared to our codex, which no one really cares about. The only time we are taken as serious threats is when we ally with daemons (or more likely, daemons ally with CSM).

[Hellrender]

on the other hand, according to rumours we would have gotten cult terminators, terminator troop options etc.. didnt happen either. i dont trust rumours anymore ;)

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah but our author was Kelly. Theirs is Ward. ;)

[Rain]

What's funny to me is how closely this thread mirrors what was going on when the Gavdex launched. We had the exact same apologist rhetoric about how it was a new direction for the game and that everyone would be similarly "streamlined" and blah blah blah. And we all know how that turned out. Let's just get real, 40k is not meant to be a competitive game and the designers (all like, 5 of them) don't take balance very seriously.

 

Our codex is a hiccup, just like it was in last edition, and although DA might also get a hiccup, with Ward at the helm I would bet against it. As much as I recoil at the thought I now wish he had written our book. At least then I could have just ignored the fluff section but had rules that weren't based on the proven false model of "but if everyone sucks no one does".

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah I agree Rain. It's scary. I don't want to believe it but I know its true.

 

Honestly I would've rather had Ward write the rules and I would've just ignored the fluff too but alas that's not the case for us.

[Smurfalypse]

What's funny to me is how closely this thread mirrors what was going on when the Gavdex launched. We had the exact same apologist rhetoric about how it was a new direction for the game and that everyone would be similarly "streamlined" and blah blah blah. And we all know how that turned out. Let's just get real, 40k is not meant to be a competitive game and the designers (all like, 5 of them) don't take balance very seriously.

 

Our codex is a hiccup, just like it was in last edition, and although DA might also get a hiccup, with Ward at the helm I would bet against it. As much as I recoil at the thought I now wish he had written our book. At least then I could have just ignored the fluff section but had rules that weren't based on the proven false model of "but if everyone sucks no one does".

 

It does sorta mirror that in a way, HOWEVER we were not the first codex in 4th that had that generic feel to it. There were two others that came before us, Eldar and DA, so to think that that was going to be the general build for all armies was reasonable. They changed that obviously after the Daemon codex when they did Orks and then scaled it even more with the SM codex. Sales were probably down for all of those codexs and people rightfully up in arms, so they changed their format.

 

This current codex is not soulless like the previous one, it is not bland nor boring and it has a lot of options unlike the previous one. The real issue will be balance, it is obviously not balanced with SW/SM/Necron/IG but besides those four, who all really is? I mean, how many BA players do you see owning up on the tourny scene? There are four codexs right now that can really hang hard vs eachother and the rest of us are out in the cold right now, I am sure that is something that GW sees and wants to change, but who knows until we see the next few codexs.

 

Either way, this codex is not the "epic fail" it is being made out to be. Could it have been better? Sure. Are there mistakes? Sure. But damn, the sky isnt falling yet, we wont know for a few years.

[Brother Ambroz]

We'll see once the next codex hits.

[Smurfalypse]

We'll see once the next codex hits.

 

Well, it will take a few. The next two codexs are probably already done and ready to be shipped ect ect, so we wont know for about a year after three or so books. But yeah, I very very much hope they adopt the WFB approach and keep things in line and balanced.

[Brother Ambroz]

Not necessarily a few. If the next one is really strong I think it'll become apparent.

 

I definitely hope you're right though.

[Sception]

Yeah Mali it's pretty painfully obvious that GW favors their "good guys" over their "bad guys".

 

This I don't agree with. After all, necrons are one of if not the baddest dudes on the block right now, and they're definitely 'bad guys'.

 

No, I think we've got a combination of things here. One, I think they actually intend to try and start reigning in power levels. Unfortunately, with GW's level of rules writing & play testing, that doesn't result in balance, it just results in weaker. After all, the internal balance in our book now isn't that much better better than any other book out there. And besides, external balance is purely relative - a book can't be 'overpowered' on its own, and while Knights and Necrons are a cut above, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Imperial Guard are all nearly on the same level, and all the other books are the ones due for sooner new releases, so would it make more sense to balance the weak stuff up? After all, nearly everyone likes getting stronger, and nobody enjoys a nerf.

 

Two, I think they're still shell shocked from the 3.5 chaos book, which was way over the top in every way imaginable. That book caused a lot of confusion and through the meta entirely out of wack. It was like chaos was playing one game, and everybody else was just playing some entirely other game. People still talk about how broken daemon bombs and untargetable princes and guaranteed alpha rushes and iron warrior heavy support spam were, and any chaos player who asks for something more is even now accused of trying to bring back the brokenness of 3.5.

 

Three, I think our codex writer just didn't care as much about chaos. You can always get that feel when reading a book that the writer was just excited about, and while Phil Kelly was all about Space wolves, this time around I don't feel that love, I just feel I guy earning a paycheck. The production quality of the book is very nice, there's good art, and some of the fluff's ok, but the rules and unit concepts feel like something scribbled out over a long weekend and stamped 'good enough'.

 

 

 

Even if we are the 'new balance', that others will be adjusted down to, that doesn't help our internal problems and it doesn't help that we don't have the tools to be good at our job, and it especially helps that our choice of specialty put us at a disadvantage right from the start in 6e. And it especially doesn't help that the two biggest bruisers on the block, grey knights and necrons, are also two of the newest books - so those match ups won't be getting any better on the opponents end until 6e is basically over. Necrons in particular must have been written with 6e in mind, making the entire premise that we're the new normal pretty far fetched anyway.

[Minsc]

I think our codex writer just didn't care as much about chaos. You can always get that feel when reading a book that the writer was just excited about, and while Phil Kelly was all about Space wolves, this time around I don't feel that love, I just feel I guy earning a paycheck.

 

This can't be said enough times.

He was also all over Dark Eldar and Eldar (and to some extent, Orks), and it shows.

Kelly cared about Space Wolves/Dark Eldar/Eldar (Orks), and those codeci are steaming with his passionate writing.

With the CSM codex however, it feels like he did it because he was told to / because it was his job.

I'm certain Kelly will come out in afew years time and admit that he never wanted to work on CSM and/or that he didn't get to do it the way he wanted.

 

Necrons in particular must have been written with 6e in mind, making the entire premise that we're the new normal pretty far fetched anyway.

 

Necrons was written with 6th Ed. in mind. It clearly shows. (Preferred Enemy on a shooting unit? Cheap dedicated flying transports? Most of the Cryptek wargear?)

This is one of the reasons I dread what's to come. Will Dark Angels just be SM (or CSM) +1, or will they actually be balanced? Can Mat Ward NOT go over the top for once?

 

Fun fact: WFB is "reknown" for having very good external balance between the newer armybooks since 8th Ed. was launched. Ward wrote the 8th Ed. Rulebook, but he hasn't touched a single armybook in WFB in 8th Ed. Maybe the guy simply can't do balanced codeci, and that's why he's not getting any new work in WFB?

[Brother Ambroz]

To be clear I didn't include Necrons in the "bad guy" category. In my opinion they're more neutral, BA and Crons fistbumping?

 

We're the bad guys. We're the archenemy, the guys the Imperium is supposed to be fighting a losing battle with. That's what I mean by "bad guys".

[Smurfalypse]

The point about the Necron codex being written for sixth so that throws off the whole "reigning in the codex creep" thing is a very very valid and concerning point.

 

Tanith Ghost

Posted Today, 03:21 PM

 

To be clear I didn't include Necrons in the "bad guy" category. In my opinion they're more neutral, BA and Crons fistbumping?

 

We're the bad guys. We're the archenemy, the guys the Imperium is supposed to be fighting a losing battle with. That's what I mean by "bad guys".

 

Necron are the bad guys, you cant just say we are the ONLY bad guy. That is silly, Chaos is by far the most "personal" bad guy, but not even close to the biggest threat. Fact is that WE are fighting a battle we CANNOT nor WILL NOT be allowed to win against an enemy whos is more technically advanced, out numbers us, out guns us, just about out everythings us.

[Brother Ambroz]

Honestly I don't think Ward could ever do a balanced codex but hopefully I'm wrong and we're the newest of the balanced codeci.

 

Necron are the bad guys, you cant just say we are the ONLY bad guy. That is silly, Chaos is by far the most "personal" bad guy, but not even close to the biggest threat. Fact is that WE are fighting a battle we CANNOT nor WILL NOT be allowed to win against an enemy whos is more technically advanced, out numbers us, out guns us, just about out everythings us.

 

 

Edit: Notice I never said we're the only bad guy. Just that we're the MAIN ones. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying.

 

Additionally, who ever said we were outnumbered? Most of that is debatable there but that's OT.

[Brother Ambroz]

Edit: Double post.

[Marshal Goderic]

I'll echo the paycheck comment. The book reads like a bad checklist; 'have we got the old stuff?' 'yeah.' 'ok, some new stuff?' 'yup, got that.' ' some fluff?' 'it's in there.' 'we have something involving daemon weapons right?' 'pretty sure,' 'what about that dark mech stuff that people have been whining about for years?' 'yeah we copied zoids, that'll shut them up.' 'got something for the old legions players who wont stop complaining for who knows what reason?' 'yeah we put in VotLW so they can't complain now.' 'ok good, there are special characters too right?' 'oh yeah skads of em, heck we even gave them a warpsmith and dark apostle, which is exactly what WE and IW players want & they're almost specials.' 'well great no one can complain since we covered all the basics then, and its not like anyone is gonna complain after the last wreck of a chaos dex, so, lets go home, job well done.'

 

not...

 

yeah its better but theres a huge difference between better and good, like hey stepping in gum is better than stepping on a nail right? nevermind the fact that noone wants either.

 

'crons needed the creep hands down but then if thats where it's stopping then everyone else needs to stop at the same place, and we are no where close to that.

 

not the best $50 i've ever spent thats for sure, not by a long shot

[Hellios]

Necrons may have been the bad guys when they were soulless machines harvesting food for their masters. Now they are an ancient Empire defending/reclaiming territory from those lesser races that now infest what is 'rightfully' theirs.

 

Now they are more grey... Like the Eldar in many ways.

[Sanctimonius]

Aren't we past the 'bad' guys and 'good' guys debate? Really the only good guys are the Tau. The Imperium is a repressive theocracy (something the Emperor fought against...), CSM fight for revenge, DE fight for souls, Eldar fight to preserve their people, Necrons are reclaiming a past empire and Tyranids are just hungry. I can see the CSM and DE being the bad guys, but there aren't really any good ones.

 

Oh, and Orks fight because....well, that's what they were bred to do. Nobody calls a snake evil for biting someone. They're evil in the same way Alexander and Ghengis Khan were.

[Brother Ambroz]

Not really a debate. I just mentioned we were the Imperium's main enemy. At least in their eyes.

[Hellios]

Aren't we past the 'bad' guys and 'good' guys debate? Really the only good guys are the Tau. The Imperium is a repressive theocracy (something the Emperor fought against...), CSM fight for revenge, DE fight for souls, Eldar fight to preserve their people, Necrons are reclaiming a past empire and Tyranids are just hungry. I can see the CSM and DE being the bad guys, but there aren't really any good ones.

 

Oh, and Orks fight because....well, that's what they were bred to do. Nobody calls a snake evil for biting someone. They're evil in the same way Alexander and Ghengis Khan were.

 

Man you need to read the Tau Empire's background if you think they are good guys. The craftworld Eldar are closer to good than the Tau but the statement you made about there being no good guys is correct, I think.

[Ifrit446]

Not really a debate. I just mentioned we were the Imperium's main enemy. At least in their eyes.

 

Gents, I think what Tanith is saying is that we are the Ultimate Enemy to the universe (hence the "Archenemy" title). He never once said that noone elsewas bad, just that we are the darkest shade of black and the main antagonist of the series. And who so ever thinks of a 50 Shades of Grey comment, so help me God I will find you.

[Sanctimonius]

Ew. Fifty Shades of Abaddon.

[Minsc]

I'll second Hellios statement. If any race is to be considered "good" (as in good meaning "for the good of the galaxy"), it would be Craftworld Eldar, but just barely.

Why? Because they act just like modern day humans usually do: "Leave us alone, and we won't bother you (unless you try to build a house on our ancestors grave, where grave means crone-world)".

They don't try to conquer other spieces just for the sake of conquer, and they try to keep "evil" forces at bay. Ulthwé guard against Chaos, and Alaitoc guard against Necrons. Usually for their own benefit, but other races benefit as well.

 

Obviously CW.Eldar are selfish self-centered bastards, but so are all races in 40k. CW.Eldar just don't chase you down for no good reason and tell you to kneel/submit/surrender/convert/die.

 

Tau are not "good". Unlike most of the other races in the galaxy, they don't kill you on sight, but they are conquerers, and they demand that you submit to their will or they will kill you. (and even if you submit, they sterilize you = "killing of" your would be offspring. They essentially commit genocide, but in a more sofisticated manner.)

 

On the other hand, arguing what race is good / neutral / evil is very hard, even in a fictional universe, because we are all humans, and we contemplate our own ethics and moral values even if we try to look on things from the perspective of an Eldar or an Ork. It's hard to show empathy to a race you don't really know.

 

And while this debate is very interresting, this is now way offtopic however.

[the jeske]

Necrons may have been the bad guys when they were soulless machines harvesting food for their masters. Now they are an ancient Empire defending/reclaiming territory from those lesser races that now infest what is 'rightfully' theirs.

 

Now they are more grey... Like the Eldar in many ways.

more so . In their new fluff they actualy want order and arent all about harvesting the living . If a planet/race surrenders and the necron see them as useful , you will get harvested at the very end of this galaxy . They are greater good guys , but not for everyone like tau want , greater good just for necrons .

 

Maybe the guy simply can't do balanced codeci, and that's why he's not getting any new work in WFB?

well he did kill 7th ed with his demon dex . And am not joking here. He killed a whole edtion .

 

 

because they act just like modern day humans usually do: "Leave us alone, and we won't bother you (unless you try to build a house on our ancestors grave, where grave means crone-world)".

you mean modern they western humans . We here are all about expansion .

 

 

 

 

 

By the way you guys should be happy . Imagine you would have seen the dex 3-4 months ago and couldnt talk about it , couldnt write about , you could just rage inside . A community meh about a codex is a lot more healthy imo . Besides Ill with the balance and streamline comments till new eldar comes out .But on the other hand I probably am going to be sad, that people wont remember their chaos comments then .