The real problem with the Chaos Space Marines Codex

[Minsc]

well he did kill 7th ed with his demon dex . And am not joking here. He killed a whole edtion .

 

I wholeheartedly agree.

He really did kill 7h Ed. (who was a wonderful edition pre-DoC) with his Daemons.

 

you mean modern they western humans . We here are all about expansion .

 

I'm not if I should laugh at your joke, or get afraid over the fact that you might as well be truthful. You russians are intriguing that's for sure.

 

Ура мой противный другу ^_^

(Not sure if that came out right, if it sounds wrong I blame google translate.)

[the jeske]

Well I was more thinking about far and middle east or even latin american . Russians always were a peacful nation.

 

 

In the end it comes down to one thing and one thing only . legion rules , fluff , even models it doesnt matter. someone who wants his own fluff will make it , people can do conversions and legions can be anything with counts as . The problem I have with this dex is that it doesnt slap me in the face and says play me , I give you different things the other dex. I keep making lists and then end up thinking I could do it with sm/BAs/SW . But as I told it a few years ago , this dex is based on the gav dex and while better[hard to do worse] it is still build on a weak base . The future of SW is glorious . Will there be people whining about their new dex ? of course . will BC probably be better then GH ? probably . will no man ever touch long fangs ? same thing. But man there are going to be 3 different builds minimum . And in the end options to make builds is the only thing that matters in the long run . good dex age well , boring dex age bad , not because stuff changes [editions/other dex] , but because mono builds are boring . I mean look at us chaos players . 1ksons army is perfectly doable . 6x10 1ksons ahriman , rhinos for everything , 3 preds and your technicly good do to go . but this build is so god damn boring , its not even a problem that it is weak or weaker then other . it is just boring and I wish no man to play with an army like that for 4-5 years.

[Sception]

* A whole lot of whining

 

Just a couple months ago, wasn't I saying the codex would be exactly like it is, and that I would be fine with that because even a weak book can be fun enough to tinker around with if it just has some options?

 

Clearly I need to chill out. Heck, I don't even play tournaments these days, and not because of codex disappointment but because that's just not the gaming scene I enjoy the most, so why do I care?

 

 

Man, I get positively grumpy when the mspa servers are down.

[Smurfalypse]

Well I was more thinking about far and middle east or even latin american . Russians always were a peacful nation.

 

 

In the end it comes down to one thing and one thing only . legion rules , fluff , even models it doesnt matter. someone who wants his own fluff will make it , people can do conversions and legions can be anything with counts as . The problem I have with this dex is that it doesnt slap me in the face and says play me , I give you different things the other dex. I keep making lists and then end up thinking I could do it with sm/BAs/SW . But as I told it a few years ago , this dex is based on the gav dex and while better[hard to do worse] it is still build on a weak base . The future of SW is glorious . Will there be people whining about their new dex ? of course . will BC probably be better then GH ? probably . will no man ever touch long fangs ? same thing. But man there are going to be 3 different builds minimum . And in the end options to make builds is the only thing that matters in the long run . good dex age well , boring dex age bad , not because stuff changes [editions/other dex] , but because mono builds are boring . I mean look at us chaos players . 1ksons army is perfectly doable . 6x10 1ksons ahriman , rhinos for everything , 3 preds and your technicly good do to go . but this build is so god damn boring , its not even a problem that it is weak or weaker then other . it is just boring and I wish no man to play with an army like that for 4-5 years.

 

The line that strikes me is "The problem I have with this dex is that it doesn't slap me in the face and says play me", I can 100% feel that. They built it on a bad base and for whatever reason thought the previous dex was a good foundation and it wasn't. This dex isn't terrible, it just isn't great or maybe even good. It is average, just an average to slightly below average codex. There are a few things we can tinker with, but I am sure in a year or so of gaming even those will get old and we will be back to the same old grind of not playing much anymore.

 

Oh well, will enjoy it while I can I suppose :P

[Nehekhare]

I had arranged myself with the gavdex, as it allowed me to field a lot of different troops counts-as-whatever I felt like at the moment. New C:CSMeh needs differently marked lords for that, so no more. Obliterators Daemon princes and defilers, which incoporated much of what I liked about chaos got nerfed/overcosted, well f**k, but expected: they want to sell miniatures. But the biggest letdown for me is actually the new stuff. I started playing IW because of the darkmech link (and the greek/germanic cultural background), so those rumors about a warpsmith charakter and daemon engines got me all exited...for nothing, really! Forgefiend, Maulerfiend, Warpsmith, Heldragon, reimagined Helbrute - of all the shiny new toys (include worse-than-allied-IG-cultists and non-heroic-warptalons here, too) under the chaos tree NOT ONE is worth fielding over the generic choices of standart dudes with special/heavy weapons (SW do it better), bikes (which will be done better with DA) and the average faceless lord-who-must-challenge-but-doesn't-have-the-tools-to-win (<any artificer armor/SS/Relic blade SM charakter). There is only one unique and characterful army build in the new dex, which is typhus' zombie horde, and that is purely a fun list: kelly's hommage the splatter movie he played in a while ago. Really, what to do with the awesome models that came out (I'd say use it for 30k!)? And without them, you could just counts-as-loyalist-flavor-of-the-month for the same list with simply better rules. If I wanted to field a footslogger horde to get shot to pieces for the emperor by the heroic loyalist gunline/precision strike force, this dex would be for me. Yeah, "cinematic" indeed. But I don't.

[Rain]

Well to be fair, I would say that our lords are fightier than vanilla marine HQ's if you don't count special characters. I mean a Khorne lord with an axe and a sigil is certainly better than a loyalist CM with relic blade and iron halo one on one, and the other marks can take a black mace which is still quite good and actually has a chance to kill things outside of your forced challenge. So to me the HQ's are the one bright spot, they aren't amazing but they are at least highly competent as far as CC HQ's go and for whatever that's worth in 6th. The real problem is how mediocre our troops and heavy support are and that our idiot sergeants have to throw challenges but have no special tools to win them other then maybe Mark of Slaanesh and a lightning claw. Still though, the fact that the bread and butter of our army is rather stale is a very bad sign.

[Sception]

Khorne Axe lords are good. There is no other lord outside of special characters who can go toe to toe with a marine hero wearing artificer & carrying a relic blade & storm shield, three pieces of gear that on their own laugh at almost any generic hero we can put on the table, and that's before we even consider marine subfactions that actually like close combat - like blood angels, wolves, or grey knights.

 

"Has Worse Gear" is not an acceptable faction defining trait, especially for a close combat oriented faction where AP and saves are king.

[Minsc]

Khorne Axe lords are good.

 

Agreed, probably the most killy non named-IC we can put on the table right now.

 

There is no other lord outside of special characters who can go toe to toe with a marine hero wearing artificer & carrying a relic blade & storm shield, three pieces of gear that on their own laugh at almost any generic hero we can put on the table

 

Here I dont really agree however. A Captain with Artificer Armour, Stormshield and Relic Blade and Digital Weapons comes in at 170 pts. (T4, 2+/3++)

 

A Chaos Lord /w MoN, Terminator Armour, Sigil, Fist and Lightningclaw cost 172 pts (T5, 2+/4++)

A Chaos Lord /w MoT, Terminator Armour, Sigil, Fist and Lightningclaw cost 172 pts (T4, 2+/3++)

Obviously theese have the drawback of being Bulky and not being able to sweep, but since PK didn't want to give us Fleshmetal for +15 pts, TDA is what we got.

Yes, they cost more than said Captain, but both of them would eat him for breakfast (even more so with VotLW). Relicblades are only AP3 as well afaik, they're not that dangerous anymore.

 

I also feel that Juggernaughts, Discs and to some extent, Palaquins allow us to make very dangerous Chaos Lords.

Yes, it's a damn shame that we only got 2 Daemon Weapons, where one is MoK-only and one is horrible against 2+ armour, but Lightningclaw + Powerfist is the new go-to loadout on our Lords, appart from BM/AoBF.

Gift of Mutation also gives our Lords a ~50% of getting something helpful. (+1 A / +1T / FnP, etc = helpful. Icy Aura/HoW/Crusader = not helpful.)

 

and that's before we even consider marine subfactions that actually like close combat - like blood angels, wolves, or grey knights.

 

Agreed on GK and SW. BA don't really have any fighty non-named IC however. Their Captains are a joke and can't even take Artificer Armour nor Relic Blades. ;)

[Sception]

Yes, they cost more than said Captain, but both of them would eat him for breakfast (even more so with VotLW). Relicblades are only AP3 as well afaik, they're not that dangerous anymore.

 

No, no, relic blades are ap2, says right here in the faq ... that ...

 

huh.

 

huh.

 

::prints faq::

 

It seems I'm going to need to have some words with a couple fine fellows at the local store.

[Minsc]

B) Glad to be of service.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think Chaos Lords have to be hands down superior to everything in assaults, but they still come in pretty nasty. The main defining thing I've noticed with Chaos Lords is they like Terminator armour, where as Space Marines Captains/Masters don't. I actually like Terminator armour being worthwhile again and hope loyalists Codex books follow suit and limit Artificer armour substantially.

 

Power axe and power sword looks good too, and would give a Lord the ability to carve up just about anything. Marks of Chaos are just the icing on the cake really.

[the jeske]

only terminator armor sucks . we dont have +3sv neither LR crusaders nor TH/SS termis to bodyguard them with . We have bikes [in this codex] and bike means no terminator armor . So we end up runing around naked .

 

and marks are no icing on the cake , without ATKNF for our dudes or stuff like TWC/SS/art armor our dudes would be a lot weaker then normal SM HQs . A bear Lord with rune armor and SS/TH is more like DP , then our lords , even the ax one .he doesnt die from GK force weapons , while our biker lords do.

[Captain Idaho]

In reverse order response:

 

Chaos Lords are Fearless so you don't need ATSKNF.

 

Elite assault experts don't need to be the best in the game to be worthwhile. So what a Wolf Lord with Saga of the Bear is a nasty proposition in a one on one situation? Doesn't mean a Chaos Lord won't be a match for every other model in the opponent's army.

 

Like wise, you don't have to have a Storm Shield to be worthwhile. Sure it's a nice bit of kit, but do Ork players moan they can't get a 3+ invulnerable save on their Ork Nobz? Your Chaos Lord doesn't even need to take wounds because he should be in a unit!

 

Since when was the Crusader the only Landraider worthwhile? I find I get much better mileage out of a pair of Lascannons and Heavy Bolter, since it is more tactical. You don't have to assault immediately to get the best use out of the thing, after all. Hang back and shoot then charge after you've softened up the enemy, or charge in early and then shoot afterwards. It's easy enough.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Just to point out:

 

Fearless can be negated, ATSKNF cannot be. It's good but it's not super and can, on occasion, be pretty bad to have.

 

A SW Lord can refuse a challenge, we can't, and moreover we have to challenge, so no hiding in the squad and no getting past that guy who's going to tear off our Lord's face. For a good comparison study, put Typhus in a challenge up against Calgar and see who walks away from it.

 

Crusader puts out enough firepower to make itself worthwhile, has Machine Spirit to do it with, and has the enhanced transport capacity.

[Lord_Starscream]

In reverse order response:

 

Chaos Lords are Fearless so you don't need ATSKNF.

 

Elite assault experts don't need to be the best in the game to be worthwhile. So what a Wolf Lord with Saga of the Bear is a nasty proposition in a one on one situation? Doesn't mean a Chaos Lord won't be a match for every other model in the opponent's army.

 

Like wise, you don't have to have a Storm Shield to be worthwhile. Sure it's a nice bit of kit, but do Ork players moan they can't get a 3+ invulnerable save on their Ork Nobz? Your Chaos Lord doesn't even need to take wounds because he should be in a unit!

 

Since when was the Crusader the only Landraider worthwhile? I find I get much better mileage out of a pair of Lascannons and Heavy Bolter, since it is more tactical. You don't have to assault immediately to get the best use out of the thing, after all. Hang back and shoot then charge after you've softened up the enemy, or charge in early and then shoot afterwards. It's easy enough.

 

Remember also, Chaos Lords CAN get 3+ invulnerable saves. MoT and SoC. My Night Lords Chaos Lord is rocking the mark of Tzeentch for instance.

[Captain Idaho]

Just to point out:

 

Fearless can be negated, ATSKNF cannot be. It's good but it's not super and can, on occasion, be pretty bad to have.

 

A SW Lord can refuse a challenge, we can't, and moreover we have to challenge, so no hiding in the squad and no getting past that guy who's going to tear off our Lord's face. For a good comparison study, put Typhus in a challenge up against Calgar and see who walks away from it.

 

Crusader puts out enough firepower to make itself worthwhile, has Machine Spirit to do it with, and has the enhanced transport capacity.

 

There is a single way to negate Fearless and it's entirely reliant on the opponent actually bothering with the Telepathy lore, rolling the single power which negates fearless, managing to get the power off, and the Chaos Lord being in a losing combat. All in all, not really something to worry about!

 

And when is the complaints about challenges going to end? Why haven't you got a unit champion to take up a challenge like every other army? I'd rather my Chapter Champion, Sergeant or Librarian took up a challenge instead of my combat character.

 

Your example is inaccurate too. Apart from why Typhus is in a challenge with Calgar (should happen very few times), the two characters are completely different. Calgar is there to beat down opponents directly, Typhus is a great all rounder. Unless you think every Chaos special character should be able to beat every other special character in challenges if they are approximately the same points? Ahirman is the same points as Typhus, so does that mean he should also beat Calgar in challenges?

 

Incidently, they are both 35pts cheaper than Calgar too.

 

Crusaders are great, but like I said I've found more tactical use with standard Landraiders. Chaos don't really need the extra space, though it could be nice of course (14 Berzerkers + Lord would scare me!).

 

Crusaders are easier to use of course, hence the appeal often.

[Hellrender]

i think, as a more cc orientated the army, they want the crusader for the higher capacity. Our landraider still holds 10, which is 5 termies, or 4 with an IC, which is just very unimpressive.

 

Thats all i want to say on the topic though :whoops:

[Minsc]

Remember also, Chaos Lords CAN get 3+ invulnerable saves. MoT and SoC. My Night Lords Chaos Lord is rocking the mark of Tzeentch for instance.

 

There are two issues regarding Chaos Lords with MoTz though.

 

1) They can't be in a unit with MoS/MoK/MoN.

MoTz is the worst mark on most units, and while it's perfectly doable to simply put no mark at all on a unit, this usually leads to a decrease in their performance.

If this performance decrease is worth the 3++ for your Chaos Lord (or Sorcerer), it's entirely up to you however.

2) Usually we only have 2 HQ choices to play with. A Tzeentch Lord doesn't unlock any cult-troops, and nor is he a Sorcerer, which means we can then choose between a Sorcerer or a second Lord to unlock PM/KB/NM.

Not a big issue, but imo still a issue.

 

While I understand the fluffreasons for the "can only join units with the same / no mark"-rule it is just big hindrance (read: nerf) to our Codex. I would take MoTz-Lords on Discs pretty much all the time, if I just could put them in a decent unit.

[Vesper]

Just to point out:

 

Fearless can be negated, ATSKNF cannot be. It's good but it's not super and can, on occasion, be pretty bad to have.

 

A SW Lord can refuse a challenge, we can't, and moreover we have to challenge, so no hiding in the squad and no getting past that guy who's going to tear off our Lord's face. For a good comparison study, put Typhus in a challenge up against Calgar and see who walks away from it.

 

Crusader puts out enough firepower to make itself worthwhile, has Machine Spirit to do it with, and has the enhanced transport capacity.

 

There is a single way to negate Fearless and it's entirely reliant on the opponent actually bothering with the Telepathy lore, rolling the single power which negates fearless, managing to get the power off, and the Chaos Lord being in a losing combat. All in all, not really something to worry about!

 

And when is the complaints about challenges going to end? Why haven't you got a unit champion to take up a challenge like every other army? I'd rather my Chapter Champion, Sergeant or Librarian took up a challenge instead of my combat character.

 

Your example is inaccurate too. Apart from why Typhus is in a challenge with Calgar (should happen very few times), the two characters are completely different. Calgar is there to beat down opponents directly, Typhus is a great all rounder. Unless you think every Chaos special character should be able to beat every other special character in challenges if they are approximately the same points? Ahirman is the same points as Typhus, so does that mean he should also beat Calgar in challenges?

 

Incidently, they are both 35pts cheaper than Calgar too.

 

Crusaders are great, but like I said I've found more tactical use with standard Landraiders. Chaos don't really need the extra space, though it could be nice of course (14 Berzerkers + Lord would scare me!).

 

Crusaders are easier to use of course, hence the appeal often.

 

You forgot the two major things : ATSKNF and power of the machine spirit are two free crazy good rules.

[Prot]

And when is the complaints about challenges going to end? Why haven't you got a unit champion to take up a challenge like every other army? I'd rather my Chapter Champion, Sergeant or Librarian took up a challenge instead of my combat character.

 

Your example is inaccurate too. Apart from why Typhus is in a challenge with Calgar (should happen very few times), the two characters are completely different. Calgar is there to beat down opponents directly, Typhus is a great all rounder. Unless you think every Chaos special character should be able to beat every other special character in challenges if they are approximately the same points? Ahirman is the same points as Typhus, so does that mean he should also beat Calgar in challenges?

 

I can agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the reality is the forced challenge thing is definitely a handicap. Can you minimize it? Yes, but it most definitely is a handicap, not a bonus. All it takes is about 3 games to see how it hurts you in several aspects.

 

I'm no expert, but you combine the Chaos' reduced leadership, minus the champs, and it's ugly fast. Take even the Cultist champ (he can't refuse either) and now you are forced to take an IC or else they are just done.

 

Not only is leadership now an issue (obviously without fearless), but a smart opponent will exercise great damage control but using it against you. I started showing my opponents how to do this, and it just plain sucks.

 

Competitive players will pick up on this. Most really don't get it yet, they don't know how to really use the mechanic to their advantage. (Reminds me of how not many knew BT were forced to charge if they could... doesn't sound bad on paper til you see a guy lead your army around with an empty rhino)

 

Why couldn't they at least have given this 'fluffy' idea to something with ATSKNF? Or a largely fearless army? Something like... I dunno, Black Templars? (Thinking of an army that seems hot for challenges.)

 

This is where I'm going with this:

 

This is our second codex where WE are stuck with 'balancing' factors. Pluses and minuses. Where were these balances with BA for instance? We are given some hurdles to overcome because of our fluff. I think they need to start doing this to all armies, and not just every 8 or so years. Remember the old days of getting something special but losing something in return?

 

I've been playing this game a VERY long time. You have to understand that at one time Chaos was THE bad guy. The Darth Vader of 40K. We got Gav-dex and every FOTM player pretty much ran off with BA, SW, Eldar, IG, GK and now I guess Crons. Some of us stuck it out, and this is years later, and this can be hard to accept because we all know it's probably going to be nearly a decade before we get another shot at it.

 

If this happens to everyone else (this feels very much like a conversation from last time we had a codex) then fine, but with Necrons out, I don't see it.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh I hear ya, I totally agree there are things missing from this Codex (check my first post :) ), but challenges aren't so bad. Sometimes a weakness has to be a defining feature of a Codex.

 

Sure, other Codex books seemed to miss the memo, and it boggles the mind how GW can't understand how best to get Chaos to work (like I said earlier, Chaos should be spread over 3 Codex books), but forced Challenges isn't that bad. Sure, it can be used to a player's advantage, but then so can normal challenges.

 

Now, leadership in assaults for Chaos Marines isn't so bad. The assault units will either be fearless in themselves, winning their combats, an icon that makes them fearless or have a character attached who is fearless. There is no reason ordinary Chaos Marines should be able to withstand an assault from Assault Terminators, or Ork Nobz, or Genestealers.

 

@ Vesper: actually Marines pay for both those special rules.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Please tell me how challenges are good? Why is it good that my sorcerers, who got a stats nerf that made them far worse in combat and their actual job(would not be so bad if Mk of Tzeentch actually did something except hamstring your psykers) have to challenge the marine captain in artificer armour, storm sheild and relic blade? especially when we don't have access to 2+ outside of terminator armour (Chaos should not mean worse equipment, look at fantasy warriors, they have the best armour in the game!) or a lack of cutting that 2+ without striking last, opps we're dead because the AP3 got us, gues we should give up and play loyalists.

[Lord_Starscream]

I don't think our book's weaknesses are in HQs (a few more Daemon weapons would have been nice. But who knows? Maybe the new White Dwarf will add them, one day)

 

I think the weaknesses that will be exposed will be our Heavy Support, and perhaps points costs as time moves forward.

[Hellios]

Oh I hear ya, I totally agree there are things missing from this Codex (check my first post :D ), but challenges aren't so bad. Sometimes a weakness has to be a defining feature of a Codex.

 

Indeed, weakness can define a codex or not even a weakness as such but what a codex has not got. So before GW started trying to give every army 1 of something... Guard for example were a slow army. Now they have fast skimmers/flyers and as more armies get faster and faster it detracts from the character of my Dark Eldar and Eldar armies. Looking at individual Eldar units most of them have pretty big weaknesses but most of them are pretty damn good at something if used properly.

 

The problem with the chaos codex (my opinion of it being bland [although an improvement on the last] aside) is that nothing really stands out as WOW look what chaos can do that others can't or WoW look how awesome this unit or ability (obviously going too far can be bad as well, for down that path lies brokenness), we lack any real strengths that make us stand out from other marine armies while having some weaknesses which while not crippling can have a significant impact on the battle. For example improving boon table would fix the challenge issue (You know... the 'best' outcome not costing me 200pts of equipment on the guys who are most likely to win enough challenges to become daemon princes)... If people think that might be unbalanced... Turning a 30pt model into a 100pt+ model is unbalanced already.

 

That is my beef really. Most of the codex is sitting in the middle of the road when it comes to power... but I think Chaos should have some of the most elite units (cultists and so on aside), chaos should stand out... To be honest when the thing that stands out the most is super plasma cannon... That ain't great. The boon table could have been good but the best result is often as dangerous for the chaos player.

[Captain Idaho]

Totally agree; just no wow factor. Shame really.

 

Please tell me how challenges are good? Why is it good that my sorcerers, who got a stats nerf that made them far worse in combat and their actual job(would not be so bad if Mk of Tzeentch actually did something except hamstring your psykers) have to challenge the marine captain in artificer armour, storm sheild and relic blade? especially when we don't have access to 2+ outside of terminator armour (Chaos should not mean worse equipment, look at fantasy warriors, they have the best armour in the game!) or a lack of cutting that 2+ without striking last, opps we're dead because the AP3 got us, gues we should give up and play loyalists.

 

Um, who said challenges were good?

 

Chaos Sorcerors don't have to accept the challenge you know, a normal Champion can take it up.

 

Even if you could refuse challenges you often wouldn't, since your model would only be chosen to sit out the combat and then you'd lose it anyway.

 

And don't forget, every army needs to strike last to get AP2.