BA vs. the Daemonic incursion.

[Morticon]

So, as some of you may remember if you read my South Africa National's report, that Daemons were out in full force.

 

SA Nationals Thread Here

 

After playing 3 of my 5 games vs. Daemon lists, I concluded that the WD-pamphlet-boosted daemons are going to be major tourney contenders.

 

Well, as expected, the Daemons have made their mark in various tournaments all over the show in the last week or two.

 

The top 2 players in this past weekend's "Feast of Blades" tournament in Colorado were ....Daemons:

FoB Top 2

 

Further to that, a buddy of mine (in Seattle if im not mistaken - it could be Madison -theyre mates from another forum) mentioned that their local tourney circuit just finished and the final was....Daemons vs Daemons.

 

Additionally, locally here in SA, there was a double FoC Daemon list that took top spot over the weekend. (6flamer squads).

 

 

Let me go out on a ledge here, and be all snooty and opinionated and actually go as far as to say this:

If you feel you don't have any problem as a BA player with the new Daemons, then I feel you may be one of the lucky few who's opponents aren't on a par with your skill, or they're not using the new units, or both.

For those of you who are having problems, this is for you.

 

There was a thread a few months back on dealing with flamers here:

Flamers

 

And another thread on dealing with the flying circus here:

Flying Circus

 

 

Defs have a read through there, and see what we can consolidate here. It also seems that most tournaments are allowing both versions of the daemon rule to be in effect, so, lets leave that debate out for now! Rather lets just acknowledge that different areas may have different rulings on this matter, so tactics would vary slightly.

 

 

For those of you who are not au faix with the new Daemon pamphlet in the WD there are two main things to look out for:

 

FLAMERS

Elites that move as jump infantry.

They have 2Wnds, a 5++, S,T,I-4.

More importantly they have breath of Chaos and warpfire. Breath being a template weapon that wounds on a 4+ and then ignores armour saves. Additionally, a 4+ is an auto glance on a vehicles.

Charging them is suicide. Shooting them is a nightmare. And you can have squads of up to 9 for only 207points.

Most tourney players are max-spamming these.

 

SCREAMERS

Fast Attack units that are Jetbikes.

They have 2Wnds, a 5++ (4+cover for jink if they turbo - which they can do up to 24" being jetbikes), WS3, S,T,I-4.

They come in groups of up to 9 for a paltry 225 points.

But, more importantly in combat they have a S5, AP2 attack. Not so bad if they had 1 attack each.

However, they have 4 on the charge. This means, that a squad that charges, excluding Hammer of Wrath attacks, will inflict about 12 wounds that cannot be saved without inv. Even Mephy dies to these guys.

If this wasn't enough, to add insult to injury they have a slash attack similar to Vector Strike.

If they pass over a unit in their turbo move they inflict d3 S4 hits.

A squad of nine therefore does 9d3 S4 hits. Because of the wording of turbo boost, theres nothing stopping these guys from boosting out from behind cover 12" forward, and then boosting back to do the damage.

 

It's these units alone which have significantly increased the daemon threat.

The flying monsters are problematic, make no mistake, but these units are insane.

 

3 max squads of each comes in at: 1296 points. And theyre equally effective when not at max strength.

 

 

The Force Multiplier for Daemons.

 

FATEWEAVER

 

Fateweaver is a flying MC HQ choice for the daemon filth.

If you havent had experience with him, again- count yourself lucky.

Any daemon unit, with a model within 6" may reroll ALL of their failed SAVES. That's ALL failed saves. Cover, armour, invulnerable.

He only has 3 wounds, but, he has a 3++ himself - and his rule applies to him too. Meaning he gets a re-roll.

He has another rule that forces him to take a LD check (LD8) everytime he takes a wound. If he fails, he's removed.

But, considering that he is a FMC, you're only hitting him on 6's.

 

Add this boy into the mix with the above crazyness and you will see how deadly the daemons become.

 

 

BLOOD ANGELS TO THE RESCUE:

 

 

I'm not going to start off with how I think things should be done, but rather Id like to open it up to the community on tactics and list ideas. I'll throw in my few cents later.

 

Let's see what we think will work, and what we think wont. What we need to look out for, and what we need to focus on!

 

Take it away guys!

[StJude]

This is some "thinking out loud" on the issue.

 

1.) We know that with these current lists that max out screamers and flamers, that these lists have no real answer to flyers.

 

2.) I think it is key to focus on their scoring units in lieu of the screamers and flamers and make it hard for the daemon player to hold objectives by targeting troops first.

 

3.) Weight of fire is a must, the more saves they have to make the better. I like the idea of a Stormraven with HB's, Assault Cannons and Hurricane bolters. Not sure about Dakka Baal Preds with how easy they can be glanced to death by flamers or Screamers using their armorbane rule.

 

4.) This continues to shift the meta to more boots on the ground.

 

5.) The elites need to be shot at and weakened before assaulting. Assaulting these guys is a risky proposition, flamer overwatch firing is a bear and screamers with 3 attacks and str 5 AP2 make things really really hard.

 

6.) These guys don't have frag grenades right? Our objectives need to be put in difficult terrain and force charges when the screamers jet in to contest.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I've had a grim past 24-hours (newborn is sick), so I'll deliberately try to cheer up my tone of response-- and I'll be sure to try and contribute useful advice.

 

So for weaknesses-- Toughness 4. That means mass amounts of small arms shooting (with Prescience Librarians) will help. Blood Angel shooting will have to come from TLAC-HB Stormravens, Baal Preds, Dual-HB Speeders, AC/HB Preds and HB Devastators. Mass amounts of small cheap screens arranged in layers (as opposed to one large screen) will be required to keep them off you to give time for your guns to work. Even then its just buying time, and you've become static so forget about trying to achieve objectives. No frag grenades is interesting-- that means the Flamers are the worse of the two enemies because they don't care about assault. Focus your fire accordingly--- Flamers are priority first, Screamers are priority second.

 

THSS Terminators with Corbulo delivered by a Stormraven can fight them in melee without completely perishing. 3++ with FnP (plus Corbulo's 2+ FnP tank) means at least it's not auto-lose proposition. However both Flamers and Screamers have penultimate mobility-- if they LET you charge them, it's because they have plenty of units left to wipe you after that one combat is over. (Once again, its too bad TOs believe the Flamers/Screamers receive EW otherwise the hammers would be simply awesome here).

 

Unfortunately, IMO only Grey Knights have the tools to at least break even versus this list--- Dakka Ravens and Dakka Troops and Prescience Inquisitors who all have Preferred Enemy against them. So the meta of Daemons completely dominating the tournament circuit is only (and poorly) kept at bay by Grey Knight shooting spam. Not even the CSM-Epidemius Tally List is able to combat them, because they won't achieve 15 kills (to unlock 3+ FnP) before they're all dead.

 

The silver-lining is that rumors say Daemons are getting a new codex in January. If this list remains as potent after their new codex as it is now, then that's the nail in the coffin of Competitive 40k. Because I'll tell you right now, no one will ever play against this list in a friendly game more than once. A player who runs only this list will find themselves out of people to play with on normal Saturday nights.

[SamaNagol]

GW need to release a proper FAQ response to this 'Daemon' rule nonsense. Cos I have zero interest in letting these Screamers get EW AND a 5+ save.

[Jorre]

I play vs demons a lot! Some strengths we have vs demons are.

 

1. Flyers. As previously mentioned, demons have very little that can combat them.

 

2. Damage tanks. I don't mean metal boxes! You can't avoid taking damage vs demons so you need units that can absorb the damage. As CAG said Corbs is a good tank. Others you can use are Divination librarian with terminator armour and storm shield. Another good combo I've been using is a sky shield, 4++ invul saves combined with fnp is a really good way to reduce flamer damage.

 

3. Divination librarians, rerolls to hit, or if you can get the power that gives your terminator Libby rerolls to hit wound and save! He will be the ultimate damage tank!

 

4. Hellfire! Sternguard, they kick ass. Take a squad of 10 with no upgrades or maybe a power fist! A couple games vs these guys and my demon opponents are just as scared of them as I am of flamers! Deploy them in cover or on the skyshield, make sure there's a priest near by and they won't go anywhere fast!

 

5. Priests! Cover as many units as you can with a priest especially your damage tanks.

 

6. Warlord traits. I know these are always a long shot, but in the 3rd table(I forget the name) there is one trait that makes your opponents reserves come in on a 4+ instead of a 3+. If you are lucky this power will greatly reduce the demon players ability to overwhelm you with more threats than you can kill in a single turn. A long shot but every bit helps!

 

7. Focus fire! If you have a choice between knocking a wound of a greater demon and killing 1-2 flamers or anything else. Always go for the kill. A greater demon with 3 wounds is just as destructive as one with 4. Unless you can kill it outright don't waste the firepower.

 

A lot of my tactics vs demons revolve around reducing there damage output. Deployment is key to this. Demon players are usually very aggressive. So you know they will come at you. If you can deploy in such a way that they can only get to throw away units or your tanking units all the better. If he isn't doing much damage and can't get to easy kills you will force him to make bad decisions, like risky deep strikes.

[liberate_tutame]

Sorry to hear about the newborn CAD, hope they are better soon. I've an eight-week old myself who's not enjoying Hurricane Sandy.

 

On topic, and having played the predecessor to this list (Fatecrusher) in a tournament setting, in 5th it seemed that your two efforts should be focused on first, making the daemon drop as difficult as possible, and second killing the fateweaver as soon as possible. But with the drop being much less dangerous I'm not sure this is as viable in 6th as in 5th. Unfortunately in my battle with the accursed enemy my entire army shooting at the fateweaver didn't kill him (caused a single wound) and that ended my tourney hopes there. With the new souped up flamers and screamers it seems like your only option is to castle up, screen to maximise your firing and feed him sacrificial units. The fateweaver seems like he should still be your priority if your opponent lets you shoot him but otherwise...

 

That ignoring armour saves from flamers is making me rethink the next unit I was planning on building, a ten man Tactical Termie unit with Corbs. Do the flamers D3 overwatch shots ignore armour saves as well?

 

For my book the allied detachment of Sisters might help, Celestine, a two ten (wo)man sisters squad and a unit of Retributors would be a helpful step in giving you some units to feed him and some more fire to hose him with.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Do the flamers D3 overwatch shots ignore armour saves as well?

Yes, the Overwatch wounds on flat 4+ with no armor saves. They also still deliver a glancing hit on flat 4+, so Furioso's can't charge them either without suffering hullpoint death.

 

Oh hey one thing Mort--- Fateweaver is Ld 9.

[StJude]

One thing that frustrates me about this particular daemon list is that these units have such versatility. It's very easy to get tunnel vision and focus too much on being the rock to their scissors and weaken our ability to face all comers.

 

This daemon list doesn't have that problem, these units seem to have it all, fearless, mobility, anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-horde. It's frustrating looking at these guys.

[Jorre]

One thing that frustrates me about this particular daemon list is that these units have such versatility. It's very easy to get tunnel vision and focus too much on being the rock to their scissors and weaken our ability to face all comers.

 

This daemon list doesn't have that problem, these units seem to have it all, fearless, mobility, anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-horde. It's frustrating looking at these guys.

 

I'm not sure I agree with you there. The key to beating demons seems to me to be mass small arms fire + things like heavy bolters and assault cannons, maybe chucking in some sternguard.

 

With the amount of anti mech mentality out there ATM I would argue that lists made this way are still really effective vs most enemies. You do have to make sure that you take some anti mech!

[StJude]

I'm not sure I agree with you there. The key to beating demons seems to me to be mass small arms fire + things like heavy bolters and assault cannons, maybe chucking in some sternguard.

 

With the amount of anti mech mentality out there ATM I would argue that lists made this way are still really effective vs most enemies. You do have to make sure that you take some anti mech!

 

I am not experiencing that anti-mech mentality in my current meta. I have a tourney this Sunday and expect to see 2 meched up IG lists with blob squads at least. The winner of Beakycon with a 'Cron Air Force signed up also.

 

Here is a breakdown from the first tournament and I expect to see most of these guys again as they are regular attenders in the area to most tourney events, especially this series. The second place player runs Eldrad War walker spam with wraithgaurd allied with DE for a tanking Archon and Voidraven bomber.

 

http://www.atlanta40kseries.com/results.html

[Jorre]

I'm not sure I agree with you there. The key to beating demons seems to me to be mass small arms fire + things like heavy bolters and assault cannons, maybe chucking in some sternguard.

 

With the amount of anti mech mentality out there ATM I would argue that lists made this way are still really effective vs most enemies. You do have to make sure that you take some anti mech!

 

I am not experiencing that anti-mech mentality in my current meta. I have a tourney this Sunday and expect to see 2 meched up IG lists with blob squads at least. The winner of Beakycon with a 'Cron Air Force signed up also.

 

Here is a breakdown from the first tournament and I expect to see most of these guys again as they are regular attenders in the area to most tourney events, especially this series. The second place player runs Eldrad War walker spam with wraithgaurd allied with DE for a tanking Archon and Voidraven bomber.

 

http://www.atlanta40kseries.com/results.html

 

I didn't explain it very well, but my point is you don't need to tailor make your list to face demons. If you are running an all comers list you may need to make some adjustments. However the same units you are already using can be highly effective vs demons.

[Chaplain Admetus]

As I said in Mort's tourney report thread, this is why I believe Daemons to be the most broken codex in the game. Not broken in terms of overpowered, but broken in the sense that the codex's internal balance is nothing short of horrific. Some units are insane (looking at you, Tzeentch), some are pretty solid, such as plaguebearers to hold objectives, FMCs are brutal, and nothing else really gets a look in. I played against one unit of Daemonettes at Throne of Skulls, and someone was using a themed mono-Slaanesh list... that's the only time in the past year I've seen anyone field a Slaaneshi model.

 

Tactics I have found:

 

1) Spread out. Everyone should be familiar with the concept of battle-cannon formation (spreading out so that as few models as possible are hit with AP2 large blasts), or plasma cannon formation (even easier with 2" coherency, a direct hit will only ever get one dude). Its a lot harder with flamer templates, but should be vaguely doable. Its a lot better than bunching up.

 

2) Line yourself up properly with the screamers. If you position yourself correctly, they won't be in a position where they can finish a turbo-boost move without landing on your unit, so they can't slash as they can't finish the move. I've used this to block vector strikes as well.

 

3) Shoot the little ones. The more they load up on flamers, screamers, and two-headed space budgie, the fewer scoring units they have. Target them where possible, and try and make it so that they cannot win without tabling you. (See G3 of my Throne of Skulls report... winning the game thanks to battering all his troops choices, and having a 1 hull point storm raven and a solo assault marine as my only models left).

 

4) Quad gun (or anything with interceptor) to shoot Fatey when he comes in. With luck you get get him on the ground and he's a lot easier to deal with down there. With even MORE luck, you can shoot him with the quad gun, he fails his grounding test, his save, his re-roll, and his leadership test, and sods off home in a huff.

 

5) Allied Librarian with null zone. Counters the budgie-bubble, and works even better when budgie isn't in range. Divination librarian can do this, but not with as much consistency as he needs that 1/3 shot of rolling the power.

[StJude]

I didn't explain it very well, but my point is you don't need to tailor make your list to face demons. If you are running an all comers list you may need to make some adjustments. However the same units you are already using can be highly effective vs demons.

 

That is basically my point though, so maybe we do agree?

 

There can be a tendency when faced with the flavor of the month to adjust to such a degree, that you lose sight of some of your other strengths. I am basically asking, and I suppose warning myself, to "stay on target" and find ways of dealing with this specific Daemons list without extreme list tailoring. I do think there should be some tailoring, just not so much that we cripple ourselves in other areas. Which it sounds to me is what you are saying also?

 

Chaplain A. and CAD, I have also been reviewing the option of allies as you both mentioned. I think I like allied IG with an officer of the fleet and possibly a blob squad to shield and where warranted, charge and tarpit some units. Not sure on that either. I would like to stay with BA options only if possible.

[Morticon]

2) Line yourself up properly with the screamers. If you position yourself correctly, they won't be in a position where they can finish a turbo-boost move without landing on your unit, so they can't slash as they can't finish the move. I've used this to block vector strikes as well.

 

ChapAd, I may be misunderstanding something, but unlike Vector Strike there are no parameters with how to move. This means that, as said in the OP they can boost forward 12", then boost back 12" and have counted as moving over you. There is no way of avoiding the slash attack as they can always end up where they started and turbo (unlike 5th ed) does not have a minimum distance required to move.

[Chaplain Admetus]

2) Line yourself up properly with the screamers. If you position yourself correctly, they won't be in a position where they can finish a turbo-boost move without landing on your unit, so they can't slash as they can't finish the move. I've used this to block vector strikes as well.

 

ChapAd, I may be misunderstanding something, but unlike Vector Strike there are no parameters with how to move. This means that, as said in the OP they can boost forward 12", then boost back 12" and have counted as moving over you. There is no way of avoiding the slash attack as they can always end up where they started and turbo (unlike 5th ed) does not have a minimum distance required to move.

 

You need to have moved over the unit at some point. If you can spread yourself wide enough, and/or start far enough away from them, then its impossible for them to turbo over you. Essentially, positioning yourself that they can't finish the relevant move by crossing the unit. Admittedly it doesn't work nearly as well against Screamers as it does against vector strikes as you need to be much further away, but if you can position yourself so that the back model of your unit is more than 36" from the back model in theirs, they can't slash you because they can't finish on the other side.

[IK Viper]

yes but they can't move and then turbo in the same phase, they do have to be placed somewhere in the movement phase and then moved back in the shooting phase atleast, if you put your back to the board edge, or atleast were the whole unit cannot fit, your ok

 

putting your back to the board edge can work in some cases unless they hit you from the side, but still, the point is that we are all grasping at straws trying to come up with tricks that are situational at best, when faced with units like this which are head and shoulders above any other units in the game for their points, I love playing tournaments but honestly I am staying away from anything bigger then my local store because I don't want to pay alot of money to go play a few real games and then face the Flamer/Screamer mono build deamons and have to play my fast, assault oriented blood angels like they are IG because of how powerful and utterly unassaultable the deamons are.

 

If every army in the game's only answer is to castle up and hope they mishap where is ther fun/competition in that.

 

One army that has not been mentioned is Necrons, they die just like the rest of us but with a resorb can get back up on 4+, have the small arms fire to hurt the deamons, and wraiths actually have a chance to survive assaulting flamers, plus they have good air units that can swoop in and claim objectives late game while they pound on the deamon troop choices.

 

Gray Knights, and Necrons are the real answer to deamons, I think we will have to wait on them to shift the Meta honestly,

 

From a BA perspective my first thought would be a return to the Rhino Rush but with Tactical Squads /Sternguard and to keep your guys in the boxes until you can hop out and firing squad those guys and then get back in the box if possible, the Rhino hulls are basically there to eat up the Alpha Strike and then you pray you can kill enough to have a chance. A flamer/ template weapons would be good since they DS in, also if you combat squad, you can throw one small squad in to eat up Overwatch and let the oter squad in for free. Once you get to them they are not to bad if you can finish the flamers off before the screamers come in to cut them out of combat. :-( either unit in isolation is not as bad, together they crush pretty hard because the screamers can rescue the flamers very quickly if they do get tied down in combat and the flamers can glance ANYTHING (looking at you Monolith) on a 4+ so if you can get 8 templates on it its statictically toast :-(

[Calnus]

As regards movement and turbo-boosting, I belive he's speaking about making it impossible to have room behind your lines for them to set the bikes down. Its possible to set up that scenario so that they can't land after the initial movement, preventing them from ever crossing your unit in the first place.

 

I might add that it REQUIRES a castle-type formation, or a real horde of bodies. Dirt-cheap models like IG would be a help here, and also count towards your deployment so you can deploy the weaklings in one corner and DS the real army in the other, giving you essentially a turn or 2 of free space to roam and setup, and preventing the DS demons who went after the weaklings from being an issue.

[Morticon]

You need to have moved over the unit at some point. If you can spread yourself wide enough, and/or start far enough away from them, then its impossible for them to turbo over you. Essentially, positioning yourself that they can't finish the relevant move by crossing the unit. Admittedly it doesn't work nearly as well against Screamers as it does against vector strikes as you need to be much further away, but if you can position yourself so that the back model of your unit is more than 36" from the back model in theirs, they can't slash you because they can't finish on the other side.

 

Nah mate, if you are 12" away from a screamer, and he touches one of your models, that screamer model has moved over the enemy unit. Theres no rule stipulating you must end your move on the other side of it, jsut that you must have moved over it, which in your 12" there, and 12" back you would have done.

 

 

IK viper

 

You said:

yes but they can't move and then turbo in the same phase, they do have to be placed somewhere in the movement phase and then moved back in the shooting phase atleast, if you put your back to the board edge, or atleast were the whole unit cannot fit, your ok

 

You seem to be misunderstanding that they can move their 12" in the movement phase, use 12" of their 24" boost to touch your guys, and then the other 12" to move back to their initial position.

They dont have to fly over.

 

There's no way with the way the rule is written at present to avoid this attack other than being 23" or more away from the squad.

[Ushtarador]

Wow thats really stupid mort, especially twice per turn.. we're gonna play at a 4man-teamtourni on the weekend, guess we'll try to send up our IG list against the daemons if we encounter them. 3 dakka russes should make quick work of the first wave if screened properly, but my army would have a really hard time against this crap. Cheap scoring units in stormravens to jump on objectives in turn 5 might be useful against such lists.

Guess we'll just have to do it like you at the tourni and outplay the overconfident opponent :)

 

And ally in some warpquake of course - do daemons even have a chance if you make 3/4 of the table a no-deepstrike zone?

[Calnus]

Damn Mort, I had not looked at the vector strike/sweeps that way. Doing it during the turbo-boost like you describe is a nasty trick, and I'm temtped to say that most of those abilities do specify "movement phase", but as I don't own the codex, and my rulebook is in a different building atm, I can't confirm.

[Morticon]

Damn Mort, I had not looked at the vector strike/sweeps that way. Doing it during the turbo-boost like you describe is a nasty trick, and I'm temtped to say that most of those abilities do specify "movement phase", but as I don't own the codex, and my rulebook is in a different building atm, I can't confirm.

 

Vector Strike does not work like this because of the wording. The turbo slash however has the ability to do this on account of no movement restrictions for the turbo :)

 

edit:

 

"Slashing Attack

If a unit of screamers moves over one or more unengaged enemy units with its Turbo-boost movement, choose one of those units...."

 

Turbo -boost

Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but instad can make a special Turbo-boost move, instead of firing in their shooting phase. Turbo-boosting bikes move up to 12", turbo-boosting jetbikes move up to 24".

 

Vector Strike

When swooping...At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged units....

 

On account of how you move when you Swoop, you cant back-forward.

Slashing however, not the same. :(

[StJude]

Huh, head on over to the Errata and FAQ section of GW (Errata and FAQ Link)

 

Click on the Chaos Daemon link. It comes up in German with a last modified date of October 29th (yesterday)

 

One highlight:

 

White Dwarf 200, August 2012, Official Update: Chaos Daemons

Use instead of the specified special rule demon in

mer, the special rule demonically from Codex: Chaos

demons (note but also the changes to this

derregel below).

 

That is a direct translation from Google. So some words are messed up, any German speakers who can help translate?

[Ushtarador]

It says:

 

Instead of the special rule Daemon always use the special rule Daemonic from the Codex:Chaos Daemons (also note the changes to this special rule as written below).

 

I don't find any changes to the Daemonic rule in the document though, weird.

[Morticon]

Using the rule in the codex would mean they get Eternal, but if their statline isnt granted a 5+, they wont be getting a save.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I hadn't considered that actually Mort - that's a good point. Guess I'm just still stuck a little bit in 5th ed mindset. At least the ploy still works for vector strike.

 

The problem with castling to try and avoid screamers, even if it works, is that it leaves you vulnerable to flamers. Frankly, my biggest issue with the list is that it is completely uncounterable. Flamers can shaft entire units the turn they arrive, screamers can turbo the turn they arrive, and there's bugger-all you can do about it.

 

@StJude - I've been translating German Egyptological texts all afternoon, so I'll give it a shot, even though I don't have dictionaries to hand... best I can make out it seems to say "instead of the quoted Special Rule - Daemon; use the Special Rule - Daemon from the Codex: Chaos Daemons (also follow these changes in these special rules below)". A bit literal and my syntax is funky, but the gist is telling us to use the Codex's version of the Daemon special rule rather than the Rulebook one, which at least clarifies the confusion.

 

Hopefully Snorri will poke his nose in at some point to confirm this, or slap me down for being completely wrong... I've also had far too much obscure/complex German today to even contemplate having a bash at the rest. If I do my brains might start to leak...

 

+EDIT+ Ninja'd. But that's two of us getting the same translation, so I say job's a good un!