StJude Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Nice work on the translations lads and thanks for taking a peak ahead Ushtarador. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Looks like flamers are going down to AP3 ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJude Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Using the rule in the codex would mean they get Eternal, but if their statline isnt granted a 5+, they wont be getting a save. I don't have the supplement handy, but the profile shows a dash? That is good news! Takes some of the potency off, although EW is still ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 No problem, wasn't that hard to translate being swiss and all ;P Still find it weird that they reference a nonexistent change and don't mention anything in the english FAQ. Not getting an inherent 5+ save would be a serious nerf though.. @Mort That makes Mephi and my sanguinary guard pretty happy I guess^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJude Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Looks like flamers are going down to AP3 ;) Mort, where are you hearing/seeing that? That would also be a fantastic change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Looks like flamers are going down to AP3 :o Mort, where are you hearing/seeing that? That would also be a fantastic change. nah, sorry to get hopes up...i think i translated wrong :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJude Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 nah, sorry to get hopes up...i think i translated wrong :o Baals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Too late, as always! Ushtarador already provided the correct translation. :o Still find it weird that they reference a nonexistent change and don't mention anything in the english FAQ It's weird, indeed. There's no change in the rule whatsoever on the following pages of the FAQ. Awkward. However I can't find what Mort believed to be the nerf to the flamers...it's a gift of tzeentch thing, a melèe attack and is called something like soul devourer in English. Hope that helps at least! Snorri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Snorri- yeh, i translated the gift thing wrong, i inferred that it was ap3 and related to flamers- wasnt! ><; my bad, my bad! at least they dont get saves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Snorri- yeh, i translated the gift thing wrong, i inferred that it was ap3 and related to flamers- wasnt! ><; my bad, my bad! I wished you were right! My SG would have a laugh at those witchfires while shredding through them in close combat. :o Snorri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Using the rule in the codex would mean they get Eternal, but if their statline isnt granted a 5+, they wont be getting a save. Man. I mean I'm really glad they cleared it up, and chose one definition of Daemon instead of the amorphous 'somehow they have both' ruling. Unfortunately, I wish they had gone the other way with it. No innate 5++ save now hurts them for sure, but can be mitigated by cover-saves and jinks/turboboosts. If GW had ruled the other way (use 'Daemon' from BRB) then they'd have lost EW, Fearless, Deep Strike and Daemonic Assault. Frankly, my biggest issue with the list is that it is completely uncounterable.I'm of the same opinion. They are only defeatable if you have higher skill than your opponent. In an equal-skill matchup, there is practically nothing a Blood Angel player can really do against 27 Flamers and 27 Screamers. Not many other codicies have a prayer either-- as evidenced by the global Grand Tournament situation from the past month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJude Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Great..... (Sarcasm) English FAQ is up and guess what? Q: Do models chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons and / or the WhiteDwarf, August 2012, Codex: Chaos Daemons official update have the Daemon special rule from the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, or do they have the Daemon army special rule from Codex: Chaos Daemons? (p27) A: All models from Codex: Chaos Daemons and/or the White Dwarf, August 2012, Codex: Daemons official update have the Daemon army special rule listed in Codex: Chaos Daemons with the addition of the Fear special rule from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook and a 5+ invulnerable save Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Well- thats the most sensible approach it seems. I just spotted people talkind about it on the local forums here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Well then all arguments are invalid. Looks like C:D will continue to sweep GTs for the forseeable future. I was even going to start suggesting things like using Combat-squadded Assault Marines-- the first 5 charge Flamers and die, letting the other 5 charge in and win melee while Mephiston goes and fixes a unit of Screamers. All gone. Arguments are irrelevant. I'm not a doom and gloom type of player, I promise I'm not... but this really is as bad as it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 and there goes my sliver of hope :/ Let's pray they fix this crap with the new codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Well, more tactica then lads!! Do you think a Nullzone libby will be an auto include? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Is "go home and cry" a valid tactica? I'd take that triple soul grinder list again over the flamerspam any day of the week... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Is "go home and cry" a valid tactica? :) *ahem* i mean.. Not for a Blood Angel. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 An expensive combo, but useable vs. almost anything, Prescience Libby + 3 Speeders with dual HBs 18 rerolling HB shots I think is fearsome. Switch out one or two of those to Typhoons if you have the points, and then you have marine or horde killing. Add in a nullzone libby and you're looking at a lot of dead deamons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I feel I just need to calm down a tad; in time this too shall pass. Either through FAQs, new Codex (either Daemons themselves or another codex will come equipped with the tools to beat them) or the meta will simply undergo massive transformation. I can't think of any other time where a list has proclaimed to be 'undefeatable' while actually having the power to BE it. Does anyone else remember a time where there was such an overpowered list in the past? I know Orks 'green tide' lists were touted as invincible until people figured out how to beat them, combined with the new IG codex. For Blood Angels, on a Tactica level, I feel combat squads and MSU are the only recourse. Mitigate damage by compartmentalizing your combat power. Layers of screens, like an onion, with your high rate of fire weaponry at the nucleus. I really wanted to say you could sacrifice a unit to charge Flamers, then charge it. IF they had no save, 5 Marines with a Priest would beat 9 Flamers eventually (ignoring Screamers coming to 'rescue' them). Now that they still retain 5++, it won't work. It's interesting that Screamers only hit Mephiston on a 5+, and only wound him on a 5+. But they have the number of attacks to pull it off-- the fact Meph goes first at I7 doesn't matter, math says he'll do 4-5 wounds before Invuln saves, so at best he'll only kill two models. Then 21 return attacks deal him 2.33 wounds. Next combat, Meph kills two more models and 15 return attacks deal 1.66 wounds (that's ~4 wounds on Meph). Next round he kills two more and the remaining 3 models only have to place a final wound. OH and if the dice go against you it becomes even more one-sided against Meph. (PS I need to vent, but GW what the heck was going through your mind? 25 points for a model with three Str5 AP2 attacks???--- no other codex even comes CLOSE to that price for ANY model with AP2 melee, let alone a jetbike (the one exception being GK DCA, but their AP2 is I1). Oh wait, I know what was going through your mind.... dollar signs. Its sucks to have a favorite Game, and then have the makers of that game betray the way you enjoy it. GW has proven several times that game-balance is not important to them. Or perhaps I'm just getting jaded as I get older.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJude Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Well, more tactica then lads!! Do you think a Nullzone libby will be an auto include? I think a Nullzone libby has a lot of promise. I also like the idea of allying with wolves and taking two Rune Priests and rolling on the divination table. So far, I still think I like IG allies the best and a blob squad to screen or hold an objective or tarpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I think a Nullzone libby has a lot of promise....So far, I still think I like IG allies the best and a blob squad to screen or hold an objective or tarpitI think a standard BA Lib with Prescience and a Vanilla Lib with Nullzone won't ever be a poor choice. As for the IG, I think a 'blob' isn't a great idea-- the Flamers might be able to hit that one squad for a massive amounts of hits, and if one unit of Screamers charges them then the melee consolidation rules will pull them out of position and then there goes the screen. Instead, I feel taking lots of IG but leaving them in seperate squads to allow for a layered screen may work better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJude Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I think a Nullzone libby has a lot of promise....So far, I still think I like IG allies the best and a blob squad to screen or hold an objective or tarpitI think a standard BA Lib with Prescience and a Vanilla Lib with Nullzone won't ever be a poor choice. As for the IG, I think a 'blob' isn't a great idea-- the Flamers might be able to hit that one squad for a massive amounts of hits, and if one unit of Screamers charges them then the melee consolidation rules will pull them out of position and then there goes the screen. Instead, I feel taking lots of IG but leaving them in seperate squads to allow for a layered screen may work better. 1.) If the flamers are hitting for massive amounts of hits, I am deploying them wrong. I would deploy in a long string in front of my troops and 2" apart. 2.) If the screamers charge and pull out of position, I am ok with that. They will survive the initial assault (I will include a Commissar for Stubborn) and allow me to counter charge with an assault squad. If I had my druthers, I would prefer to initiate the charge, but with 30 dudes, if I don't I can survive it. I would probably also equip the 3 sarges with power mauls and include 3 flamers in the squad. This squad would cost 230pts and I think it would allow me to completely wipe a squad of screamers in assault between them and the counter charge and have quite a few dudes left over. I haven't run all the math yet, but I would like to see what I could get out it. Plus, the blob squad is versatile against many other lists, especially Cron Air where I would go to ground in area terrain to survice I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how you would layer with IG, their low leadership means they will break pretty easy without an IC who has stubborn or fearless to hold them in place and then the cost of the unit starts to get up. I also like the idea of an Officer of the fleet to nullify the Comms Relay. Heck, with the way I see daemons players putting the aegis right in midfield, if I could engage the unit "manning" the comms, I definitely make it harder for the daemons player to get his troops in. A 30man squad might be able to pull that off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Looks like the latest bols demon advise copy/paste a lot of the advice out of this thread Check it out http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/10/40k...endant.html?m=1 Maybe it's just common sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 I think there will need to be a big meta shift to help deal with them. We will still suffer in tournies vs. them unless we theme to counter, and even then it's quite rough. So far, our options for BA are: SM Libby ally with Nullzone. GK ally with banishers (Coteas as HQ to get more than 1) IG ally for tactical blob/onion squads. Daemons are still weak in the air, so Ravens are golden- AC/HurriBltr seems the way to go and on arrival it is possible to take out the uber-budgie in one phase of shooting if we use a null libby. Though it's more likely we do 2 wounds, so make sure you have something else to take him down. I have a suicide unit, that when coupled with a Null LIbby (or banisher) can take out a squad of fiends. The Talon dread. Suicide in terms of taking out screamers. He'll die at init4, but, with nullzone in the mix, he can take out a full squad of screamers, especially if you're rocking prescience. Vs. Flamers, if you can get a sacrificial squad charging in first, then its a clear win. 2.) If the screamers charge and pull out of position, I am ok with that. They will survive the initial assault (I will include a Commissar for Stubborn) and allow me to counter charge with an assault squad. If I had my druthers, I would prefer to initiate the charge, but with 30 dudes, if I don't I can survive it. I would probably also equip the 3 sarges with power mauls and include 3 flamers in the squad. This squad would cost 230pts and I think it would allow me to completely wipe a squad of screamers in assault between them and the counter charge and have quite a few dudes left over. I haven't run all the math yet, but I would like to see what I could get out it. Plus, the blob squad is versatile against many other lists, especially Cron Air where I would go to ground in area terrain to survice A screamer squad being overwatched by that squad will lose about 2 screamers. The init 4 attacks you then suffer will lose you around 15 guardsmen- more than likely wiping out the 3" zone of counter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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