BA vs. the Daemonic incursion.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

1.) If the flamers are hitting for massive amounts of hits, I am deploying them wrong. I would deploy in a long string in front of my troops and 2" apart.

That's a solid point, how you deploy them will matter a lot. My thoughts were that I figure if 9 Flamers hit 3 models each that's ~13.5 wounds. If you only have 10 per squad there's no overkill past 10. Also don't forget they have access to Pavane of Slaanesh which can create a localized cluster upon which to roast.

 

2.) If the screamers charge and pull out of position, I am ok with that. They will survive the initial assault (I will include a Commissar for Stubborn) and allow me to counter charge with an assault squad. If I had my druthers, I would prefer to initiate the charge, but with 30 dudes, if I don't I can survive it. I would probably also equip the 3 sarges with power mauls and include 3 flamers in the squad. This squad would cost 230pts and I think it would allow me to completely wipe a squad of screamers in assault between them and the counter charge and have quite a few dudes left over. I haven't run all the math yet, but I would like to see what I could get out it. Plus, the blob squad is versatile against many other lists, especially Cron Air where I would go to ground in area terrain to survice

You're right, you'd have to initiate the charge. Playing the devil's advocate, if I saw a solitary blob screen, I would combo-charge it with every Screamer I had. Each Screamer is killing ~2 Guard on the charge (4 attacks, Hit on 4+ kill on 2+). So 9 Screamers alone may easily kill 18 guard, and if you take two units of Screamers (or 3 units if they've been taking shooting attrition) means you can wipe the screen one turn. My Flamers will be directly behind them, so if the Screamers are consequently counter-charged then the Flamers will mop up.

 

Layered screens cannot be removed in one turn, although there will be weaker spots and optimal directions of approach which could lead to breakthrough in two turns. Now if you have 2 or 3 Divination Librarians or a Biomancy IG Primaris Psyker, then if you receive Forewarning/ Endurance/ Enfeeble then the blob is probably the better option due to 4++ or FnP or Lower enemy toughness so you can First-Rank-Fire-Second-Rank-Fire them to death (I was gonna abbreviate that as FRFSRF but it looked silly and I don't think many on here would know what it meant... :blush: its such a mouthful of a rule....)

 

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how you would layer with IG, their low leadership means they will break pretty easy without an IC who has stubborn or fearless to hold them in place and then the cost of the unit starts to get up.

A Lord Commissar has a 6" bubble where all IG units are Ld10 Stubborn, and also satifies the mandatory HQ. That's my initial thought on how I'd try to do it-- although keeping them in place isn't something you always want, depends if you have counter-chargers or not since if the daemons get locked in melee then you can't shoot at them. Now, Warpfire (Flamers also have an 18" Str4 Ap4 Assault3 shooting attack) causing morale checks is a valid concern. But on the whole, from having played with IG against Orks many times, generally layers will slow things down better than blobs if shooting is your strength. A blob may help you better if you're heavy with counter-assault and light on shooting, but even then I'm not sold. The problem is that they are Jetbikes and Jump Infantry. If they were anything else then a great many more options would exist. As it is they can jump right over conventional 'forward' screens, so you have to use close-up screens with only small gaps to disallow landing room.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I have a suicide unit, that when coupled with a Null LIbby (or banisher) can take out a squad of fiends.

The Talon dread. Suicide in terms of taking out screamers. He'll die at init4, but, with nullzone in the mix, he can take out a full squad of screamers, especially if you're rocking prescience. Vs. Flamers, if you can get a sacrificial squad charging in first, then its a clear win.

I had thought about dreads too. A DC Dread with Talons and Prescience will do it better because the greater number of attacks will help continue pushing through their 5++, though it necessitates actually taking a DC unit. CURSES what happened to our +1 Initiative for Furious Charge!! :blush:

 

I suppose if you had 5 DC and a DC Dread in a Raven, then you'd have even money to actually survive the assault since DC would prevent massive number of attacks on the Dread and vice-versa. Of course unloading will require Hovering, which will go very poorly if you don't have the Flamers under control.

[Morticon]

I had thought about dreads too. A DC Dread with Talons and Prescience will do it better because the greater number of attacks will help continue pushing through their 5++, though it necessitates actually taking a DC unit. CURSES what happened to our +1 Initiative for Furious Charge!! :blush:

 

You know FC init boost would have solved all these problems :devil:

[Chaplain Admetus]

Frankly, my biggest issue with the list is that it is completely uncounterable.

I'm of the same opinion. They are only defeatable if you have higher skill than your opponent. In an equal-skill matchup, there is practically nothing a Blood Angel player can really do against 27 Flamers and 27 Screamers. Not many other codicies have a prayer either-- as evidenced by the global Grand Tournament situation from the past month.

 

I think I need to clarify slightly what I mean by -uncounterable-... flamers especially, and to a lesser extent screamers, can turn up and remove entire units from the table on turn 1. There's no way to fight against it, because they'll turn up and evaporate upwards of 80% of a unit, then laugh at attempts to get rid of them in return. You can't really stop it from happening; you're going to be forced to fight without certain units.

 

re: the screamer cost point... lets take a look at other 25 point models GW has. Screamers get 3 S5 AP2 attacks, a 5++, and are jetbikes which can slash a unit when they move over them. Marines get sternguard - 25 points for a 1 wound, 2A model with funky boltgun ammo. Screamers get the nod. Or, even pushing the boat to other Xenos models... Tau Crisis suit. Not only a Tau Crisis suit, but a naked one at that - you're still obliged to pay for wargear. Heck, even taking a terminator into the equation; 1 on 1 its 2 AP2 attacks vs 3 AP2 attacks, both with a 5+ invuln as our only line of defence. They have the bonus attack and initiative (as fist goes last), and termy costs more.

 

25 points is stupid.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Another meditative thought on creating screens against them-- they can control vehicle destruction to favor how they'd like to affect Lines of Sight.

 

Flamers turn tanks into Terrain, because they can only glance-kill.

Screamers turn tanks into craters, because with that many AP2 attacks they will probably always roll a 5+ on the result table.

 

Just keep that in mind if deploying Razorbacks as screens to protect your infantry.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I still think that the reliable assault terminator-corbulo combination should work. Even with AP2, that's a 3+ save with FnP. Corbulo can soak up everything like a sponge, and all that for 320 points if I'm not mistaken. In close combat, the hammer attacks should be enough to make short work of flamers and screamers, especially if the charge was supported by anti-infantry fire.

 

Keeping in mind that daemons can't handle our flying awesomeness, a Stormraven should be the vehicle of choice to deliver this threat. Thoughts?

 

 

Snorri

[IK Viper]

thoughts are that the community should just decide to revert back to the old codex and we can all go about our lives....

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Allied Grey Knights, take a Stormraven. 255pts for TLAC/TLHB/HB with Psybolt ammo. Put a Banisher Henchman inside with a Death Cult Assassin/Crusader countercharge-unit inside. DCA can take both a Power Maul and Power Axe each-- the Maul will go at I6 with Str6.

 

Take Coteaz as HQ to allow 'quasi-interceptor rule' to keep alphastrike away- put him in a henchman unit with 3 HB Servitors, a Banisher and 5 Stormbolter Acolytes (only 80pts). Coteaz is Mastery2 and can take Divination, and he's only 100pts. Coteaz could also join the melee unit in the Raven to give them Prescience on their charge- in which case they will wipe a unit.

 

Turn 2 the Raven will deal ~12.3 wounds from inside 12" on average (get a good hand of dice and you could easily see 15 wounds) against Toughness 4, and it's immune to reprisal from Flamers/Screamers. Turn 3 it will hover to deal that damage again, while debarking the DCA with Banisher to mop up another unit. So for less than 500pts you can kill or neuter 3 units out of the 6 nasties.

 

445pts for the basic package, then up to 150pts or more if you want both a Coteaz shooting unit and a DCA/Crusader melee unit. I feel that's good value. Plus its useful against conventional forces too. The mindstrike missiles in particular are a unique way to turn enemy psykers into puree-- such as annoying Runepriests. And we all know psykers are getting more frequently seen due to the Psychic Hood nerf and the rise of Divination.

[IK Viper]

seams like a good plan to me, I just hate that if your going to take that much GK stuff you might as well play GK,...

 

that being said, I am looking at allying in GK for similar reason, Strike Squads give Warpquake, but you have to go first in order to benefit from it. and they put out some nice small arms fire for their points (220 for 20 S5 storm bolter shots (if you pay for psybolt ammo) in a scoring package with Warpquake) Take Coteaz to reroll sieze if you want, and have that interceptor ish shooting phase all for 320 pts... not to bad

[CitadelArmyGuy]

seams like a good plan to me, I just hate that if your going to take that much GK stuff you might as well play GK,...

Well, I wouldn't use GK models. I'd use a BA Raven, then use a Chaplain on foot with PF as a 'Count-As' Coteaz (Psychic Powers = Fiery Oratory Abilities? Faith in the Emperor? Idk lol) then use Death Company models to represent Death Cult Assassins.

[SnorriSnorrison]

seams like a good plan to me, I just hate that if your going to take that much GK stuff you might as well play GK,...

Well, I wouldn't use GK models. I'd use a BA Raven, then use a Chaplain on foot with PF as a 'Count-As' Coteaz (Psychic Powers = Fiery Oratory Abilities? Faith in the Emperor? Idk lol) then use Death Company models to represent Death Cult Assassins.

 

I'd go the other way - use GK models. Some silver to break up the red, and also very, very fluffy at the same time. Daemon infestations are not meant to be cleansed by regular Space Marines, so they're supported by Grey Knights, the Daemonhunters. Now, were did I leave my Mithril Silver....

[Jolemai]

Trouble is, you'd all get your minds wiped afterwards...

 

 

Fluff aside, while you're focusing on the Screamers & Flamers, what is the rest of their army up to? Last thing we want is to lose focus of that and the capabilities of other models. Couple that with whatever tactic you think up, it needs to perform well again other forces that *may* attend any tournaments...

[SnorriSnorrison]

Trouble is, you'd all get your minds wiped afterwards...

 

Shoot! :)

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I put this up in the Tactica Astartes subforum, but I thought I'd link it here too for great justice (and a touch of self-promotion... lol).

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;showentry=8343

 

Pertinent against Flamers of Tzeentch or Torrent attacks from the new CSM book. Lots of pretty pictures!

[Morticon]

I put this up in the Tactica Astartes subforum, but I thought I'd link it here too for great justice (and a touch of self-promotion... lol).

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;showentry=8343

 

Pertinent against Flamers of Tzeentch or Torrent attacks from the new CSM book. Lots of pretty pictures!

 

someone's enjoying VASSAL! :D

[spartan249]

I figure I'll post what I did up on the formations tutorial, since it seems to be relevant.

 

Essentially, you're looking for Turn 1. If you can secure Turn 1, you win the game vs mr. Daemon player.

 

GK allies

HQ

Coteaz

Troops

Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts

Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts

Fast Attack

Interceptor Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts

Elites

Henchmen: 7 Acos (Sbolter), 3 Pcannon Servitor, 2 Jokaero

 

Coteaz & Henchmen go and cover the center. Interceptor Squad combat squads and covers the left & right flanks of the OPFOR's deployment zone, then warp quake. Strike Squads cover your deployment zone and warp quake. All that's left is a small part of the center of the board that is open. If Coteaz is close enough to cover the center, he automatically shoots whatever comes down with shooty death.

 

To be honest, this is ridiculous that daemons have gotten to this point. I used to joke about 40k games becoming a "who goes first" game, but it has become quite literal where daemons are concerned. Broken as hell.

[SamaNagol]

T/L Assault Cannon and Heavy Bolters. Plenty of them.

[Morticon]

I figure I'll post what I did up on the formations tutorial, since it seems to be relevant.

 

Essentially, you're looking for Turn 1. If you can secure Turn 1, you win the game vs mr. Daemon player.

 

GK allies

HQ

Coteaz

Troops

Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts

Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts

Fast Attack

Interceptor Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts

Elites

Henchmen: 7 Acos (Sbolter), 3 Pcannon Servitor, 2 Jokaero

 

Coteaz & Henchmen go and cover the center. Interceptor Squad combat squads and covers the left & right flanks of the OPFOR's deployment zone, then warp quake. Strike Squads cover your deployment zone and warp quake. All that's left is a small part of the center of the board that is open. If Coteaz is close enough to cover the center, he automatically shoots whatever comes down with shooty death.

 

To be honest, this is ridiculous that daemons have gotten to this point. I used to joke about 40k games becoming a "who goes first" game, but it has become quite literal where daemons are concerned. Broken as hell.

 

This isnt a bad idea in theory, but there are two main issues.

 

Since Coteas is in this list, the Henchmen are all Troops- so, we cant have that henchmen squad in without losing the Strikes.

That aside, this build runs at just over a thousand points, leaving precious little for our main army- the BA.

 

We risk losing a lot of BA flavour and play and wind up having to essentially play another army to deal with an army we are struggling with. I find that a bit rough.

[Bartali]

I think Screamers/Flamers are part of the bigger picture for 6th - that of GW giving out AP2/3 like candy. cf Baleflamer Helldrakes and assorted others from the CSM dex for continuing the trend.

I expect by the time we get to the SM dex and the new Tacticals box, the cost of the basic marine will have decreased (12pts anyone ?) and games will be a flood of infantry models with a couple of fliers or tanks backing them up.

[irwit]

Frankly, my biggest issue with the list is that it is completely uncounterable.

I'm of the same opinion. They are only defeatable if you have higher skill than your opponent. In an equal-skill matchup, there is practically nothing a Blood Angel player can really do against 27 Flamers and 27 Screamers. Not many other codicies have a prayer either-- as evidenced by the global Grand Tournament situation from the past month.

 

I think I need to clarify slightly what I mean by -uncounterable-... flamers especially, and to a lesser extent screamers, can turn up and remove entire units from the table on turn 1. There's no way to fight against it, because they'll turn up and evaporate upwards of 80% of a unit, then laugh at attempts to get rid of them in return. You can't really stop it from happening; you're going to be forced to fight without certain units.

 

re: the screamer cost point... lets take a look at other 25 point models GW has. Screamers get 3 S5 AP2 attacks, a 5++, and are jetbikes which can slash a unit when they move over them. Marines get sternguard - 25 points for a 1 wound, 2A model with funky boltgun ammo. Screamers get the nod. Or, even pushing the boat to other Xenos models... Tau Crisis suit. Not only a Tau Crisis suit, but a naked one at that - you're still obliged to pay for wargear. Heck, even taking a terminator into the equation; 1 on 1 its 2 AP2 attacks vs 3 AP2 attacks, both with a 5+ invuln as our only line of defence. They have the bonus attack and initiative (as fist goes last), and termy costs more.

 

25 points is stupid.

 

But isnt it 25pts because the rest of the army sucks? We can have termies, land raiders, sang guard, vanguard vets, predators etc?

 

I don't think the demon codex or any codex is really designed to spam one unit. I know this seems like one of the more extreme cases but it will get brought down to earth in time.

[spartan249]

Derp, at that point, GK would have to be the main army...

 

Otherwise, I see no other option then to mech up, take C:SM libby with null zone, and 4 squads of sternguard. Tailorfest 5000 to counter a daemon army that can take on any list in current circulation... if that isn't a clear indicator of brokenness...

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Another case for allied IG:

 

Punisher Leman Russ with 3 Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber... with Commander Pask upgrade. 260pts.

 

32 Shots, then cast Prescience onto that Tank-- math says it will deal 18.52 wounds against Toughness 4.

 

And its one model, very easy to screen. And you probably are taking a Prescience Librarian anyway...... and he can shoot down AV11 Flyers (4.3 glances even before Pask's Crack Shot). Screen with cheap IG to prevent Melta/Melee/RapidFire Gauss/etcetc and the Librarian attached to give them 'Know No Fear.' Sounds like a good deal to me.

[mmaarrkk]

Skyshield, 4++ which is NOT a cover save, add a sang priest in the middle and everyone gets a 5+ FNP as well.

 

I am playing a demon player on Sunday and have tailored a list to hopefully beat him, includes sternguard with lots of combi flamers to go after his plague bearers. Storm Raven as only GD's and bolt can hurt it, allied SM libby for null zone and 2x thunderfire cannons, when they deepstrike they will get a lot of templates put on them, 2 devi squads with 4 ML each, frags for flamers and kraks for DP's.

 

If i am not going to use the skyshield I'd use rhino spam to use as a defensive shield, only thing that stopped me is if they get glanced to death in front of my devi's I'd have to move and therefore snap shot to get LOS on to the target.

[StJude]

Another case for allied IG:

 

Punisher Leman Russ with 3 Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber... with Commander Pask upgrade. 260pts.

 

32 Shots, then cast Prescience onto that Tank-- math says it will deal 18.52 wounds against Toughness 4.

 

And its one model, very easy to screen. And you probably are taking a Prescience Librarian anyway...... and he can shoot down AV11 Flyers (4.3 glances even before Pask's Crack Shot). Screen with cheap IG to prevent Melta/Melee/RapidFire Gauss/etcetc and the Librarian attached to give them 'Know No Fear.' Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

Man, I really like this option a lot, nice find! I NEVER noticed the heavy 20....

 

Plus I am a sucker for tanks. This is really looking like a clear winner to me in the allies department. I am gonna have to playtest this.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Man, I really like this option a lot, nice find! I NEVER noticed the heavy 20....

 

Plus I am a sucker for tanks. This is really looking like a clear winner to me in the allies department. I am gonna have to playtest this.

Quick update, my math formula had a hiccup, the tank will only deal 2.95 glances against AV11 flyers with Pask's Crack Shot.

 

Pask's Crack Shot gives +1 to AV penetration-- so his 29 shots are Str6 against tanks, which makes him a small threat even to AV12 Flyers (iffy). ALSO his Crack shot lets him re-roll failed wounds against Monstrous Creatures. He's getting better and better versus Daemons.... :) Just be careful, he must be stationary to use his Crack Shot rule.