BA vs. the Daemonic incursion.

[liberate_tutame]

I don't think you can meta for Daemons and still hold up against other lists. It really is luck of the draw.

Disagree with ya Sama, I think Daemons shift BA towards using their allies slot. Imperial Guard. Sisters, SW, SM etc. all bring elements to the table that help BA greatly against daemons without eroding our ability to go against other lists. For example, even a simple Null Zone libby is a great help against daemons but also against many other lists.

 

Daemons probably are game breaking, but more generally they are continuing the BA/40k meta move from fifth where quality of fire was more important because mech dominated to a game where weight of fire is the key. The move is also being encouraged with the rise of Prescience.

[Bartali]

I don't think you can meta for Daemons and still hold up against other lists. It really is luck of the draw.

 

There was an interesting discussion on 11th Company's podcast I think about the Warmachine 2 list tournament system. Where you take 2 lists from the same book and blind pick your list only knowing the race you are facing, not their list.

 

I can see this coming into 40k more and more as match ups seem to be coming in to play heavily.

 

In a more subtle way it's not just Daemons that are responsible for this. With the introduction of fliers, it's now hard to build a genuine all comers list (especially at less than 2k).

 

I'm hoping the 6th edition dexes go some way to correcting this.

[mmaarrkk]

I do agree with that, we all know how good the storm raven can be, against orks and guard it really is harsh, so I tend not to run them now, or at least try not to. Went to 4tk for a game night last night for the first time, left one SR at home and left one in the car, got there and paired up with a necron air cav list, which I wanted to play as I havent faced one yet.

 

1500 pts he had 4 night scythes, 2 doom scythes and a lord in chariot thing, I had 2 devi squads, 2 assault squads, aegis SR libby with divi sternguard in drop pod. I ended up winning quite well, got a few lucky shots off with one of my devi squads (all ML's of course) prescience on ML's against flyers is pretty good and SR with hurricane bolters, AC and typhoon reliably killed a flyer a turn, killed three nightsytches and 1 doom sycthe and other was down to 1 HP lucky managed to do this before he managed to deploy his troops so they had to come on from his table edge (vanguard). I lost 1 assault squad 1 marine from devi squad, 2 marines from other assault squad and 2 marines and 1 ML from the last squad and lost the sternguard and drop pod for first blood for him. Very suprised on how I did, if I did take both SR's (and dropped out the devi's that werent on the aegis) I think I would have killed all his flyers but it was down to the dice rolls, me making him go first, and ending on turn 5.

 

 

But anyway, majorly digressed, it is hard to do a all comers list as i dont want to use my flyers in every game, far from it, but it is hard if you go up against a all flyers army like that.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I don't think you can meta for Daemons and still hold up against other lists. It really is luck of the draw.

 

There was an interesting discussion on 11th Company's podcast I think about the Warmachine 2 list tournament system. Where you take 2 lists from the same book and blind pick your list only knowing the race you are facing, not their list.

 

I can see this coming into 40k more and more as match ups seem to be coming in to play heavily.

My jaw dropped at this. Its so elegant, yet so excellent. PLUS fluff-wise it matches so perfectly! I know for a fact Blood Angels don't say to themselves "eh, Orks hey? Lets load up on meltaguns"

 

Of course, most good codicies have two or more viable build-types, some at wildly opposite ends of the spectrum. Any codex with only one viable build will be at a massive disadvantage through predictability.

[knife&fork]

My jaw dropped at this. Its so elegant, yet so excellent. PLUS fluff-wise it matches so perfectly! I know for a fact Blood Angels don't say to themselves "eh, Orks hey? Lets load up on meltaguns"

 

Of course, most good codicies have two or more viable build-types, some at wildly opposite ends of the spectrum. Any codex with only one viable build will be at a massive disadvantage through predictability.

 

It's something I've been tempted to try as well, the only problem I can see with it in 40k is that it would punish players without huge model collections. Maybe not a problem for a real hardcore tournament but a large chunk of the WH40K community is made up of casual players that would just get screwed over even harder by the 'top dogs'.

[mmaarrkk]

Played a simular thing the other week, 750pts and had 5 lists to choose from, let my opponent pick at random, few strong ones, few averages ones (one was 2 tacs chaplain and DC in drop pod, other was 2 5 man scouts 4 dreads and master of the forge (C:SM codex) another was full scout squad, 2ac squads, devi squad libby and priest with aegis and quad gun, cant remember the other two as we didnt use them) made for some fun games, played againt tyranids, swarmlord, tervigon, 2 groups of gaunts and whatever tervi spawned made for some intersting and fun games

[Morticon]

I run a big tourney here in March every year called the Veteran's - its a 2500 multi-objective tournament.

This year we're having a sideboard- 1750 point base, with 750 point side board chosen after you get paired up with your opponent.

[SamaNagol]

interesting Mort. And would mitigate issues with people who dont own thousands of pounds/dollars/rands worth of models

[Brother Maikel]

Mort, at the risk of derailing the thread even further, I'm curious: can some of the 750 be used to upgrade models in the base 1750? Like, for instance, if I wanted to upgrade my flamer-backs into las/plas, or swap a Devstator's ML for a Lascannon? Also, does it have to consist entirely of new units, or can you add models to units from the 1750?

 

I ask because I've considered suggesting something like that to one of my local gaming stores, but had a hard time working out the details.

[knife&fork]

Can I bother someone to do a quick mathammer on Heavy bolters and Heavy flamers vs screamers and flamers?

[Morollan]

Can I bother someone to do a quick mathammer on Heavy bolters and Heavy flamers vs screamers and flamers?

 

If memory serves they are both T4, 2W with 4++ save? If so, a Heavy Bolter does 0.66 unsaved wounds. A Heavy Flamer does 0.33 unsaved wounds per model under the template. You obviously have to take range into account however.

[knife&fork]

Can I bother someone to do a quick mathammer on Heavy bolters and Heavy flamers vs screamers and flamers?

 

If memory serves they are both T4, 2W with 4++ save? If so, a Heavy Bolter does 0.66 unsaved wounds. A Heavy Flamer does 0.33 unsaved wounds per model under the template. You obviously have to take range into account however.

 

Isn't that a 4+/5++?

 

Either way I'd say that we might see some HB spamming if this continues. Just like nob bikers were partially responsible for making the ML dev squad a staple and rhino spam made autocannons actually useful.

 

Having 9 dual HB speeders should at least make them sweat a little, right?

[mmaarrkk]

flamers are 5++ screamers are also 5++ as well I think, ah they are jetbikes so get a jink save as well (which flamer templates ignore)

 

9 dual HB speeders will die so easily to flamer and screamer slash attacks, 540points for a one use squad really, saying that you would be best off keeping them in reserve so the screamers cant do thier slash attack or flamers cant do their alpha strike on the turn they come on, at least the speeders would get a chance to shoot at something

[SamaNagol]

They both only get 5++ from the Daemon rule.

 

And Screamers get the 4+ Jink save.

 

Heavy Bolters are quite good tbh. Especially with Prescience

[mmaarrkk]

Tried to cast prescience last night on a squad of speeders (AC and HB) perils of the warp, this was preceeded by scattering off the board with a drop pod and some other pants dice rolls, was not a good game for dice rolling!. But yea totally agree prescience would be very good for anything rolling a lot of dice, I usually use it on my ML devi's but thats usually only 4 dice need to start using it on assault squads and things with more dice really

[knife&fork]

9 dual HB speeders will die so easily to flamer and screamer slash attacks, 540points for a one use squad really, saying that you would be best off keeping them in reserve so the screamers cant do thier slash attack or flamers cant do their alpha strike on the turn they come on, at least the speeders would get a chance to shoot at something

 

It's 3 squads, so 3 seperate targets that only the screamers are fast enough to catch.

 

I wouldn't call it a one use unit either, it's quite flexible. Torrenting wounds is more useful now that the opponent doesn't have control of casualty removal.

Just need to make sure to have something else to properly take care of vehicles when you play some other army.

[mmaarrkk]

3 units yes, but screamers will turbo boost over them for slash attacks (d3 hits per screamer at s4 but its auto hits, unit of 9 can be from 9 to 27 hits) each flamer unit destroy a unit of speeders a turn,

 

Only needs two glances per LS, but theres only 3 to target, still dont think they will do too good against them imo

[Morollan]

flamers are 5++ screamers are also 5++ as well I think, ah they are jetbikes so get a jink save as well (which flamer templates ignore)

 

Mathhammer is slightly off then.

 

HB: 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.88 unsaved (0.66 if Screamers are Turbo-boosting)

HF: 0.66 wounds, 0.44 unsaved (no change for Turbo-boost) per model under template

[SamaNagol]

The reason why Speeders are good is because they have 36" range. They can stay out of the way of most things pretty easily, and have the mobility to fall back and still shoot.

 

You should technically get 2 rounds of shooting on most things before they can kill you.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!

 

So I do not have my hands on the new Daemons Codex. The Internet has spoken however, from people who do have it.

 

Screamers lost Eternal Warrior. They have AP- melee, but can sacrifice all their attacks to make a single Str5 AP2 Armorbane attack.

 

Flamers are now Str4 AP4 templates.

 

C-C-Combo Breaker! I am so happy you guys, you really have no idea. The game of rock-paper-scissors has been restored, no longer is there the "King of Lists" janking the meta out of whack. Sorry for resurrecting the dead thread--- but I reread through a lot of it and it is simply sublime to see how we don't have to worry about any of it anymore.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah Daemons have been nerfed to the point of silliness with a side of random. Don't think you'll have to worry about competitive daemon lists.

[irwit]

That is until it gets FAQed and they add eternal warrior back to everyone   ;) 

[SnorriSnorrison]

I think Deamons are stronger than before, even without the 'I-win-button' that were the screamers and flamers spammend into oblivion. They've got really cheap, and their stats didn't change from what I know. Deamon players can now effectively play big hordes of models which either slice marines to death, rend marines to death, overwhelm them in shooting attacks or just sit on an objective with 3+ cover, not even going to ground. Yeah, Tzeentch doesn't give the +1 on the invulnerable save, but you can re-roll 1s, which is quite a buff if you ask me.
 

The warpstorm chart might be random, but since you're rolling on it every shooting phase of the deamon player, there might be some ridiculuously damaging results...and I would think that most of the time, the opponent is the one taking that damage.
 

I for one wouldn't be so quick with a judgement, especially if the codex hasn't been thoroughly played against. ;)

 

 

Snorri

[Brother Ambroz]

The only things that got stronger are GDs and princes. You all won't have anything to worry about really. Everything Tzeentchian gives FnP buffs when it fires. Nurgle is just so slow and Khorne is super fragile. I think the main thing BA needs to worry about would be a Khorne heavy list where the hellblades would do a decent number on PA. Slannesh might be decent now though with how fast they are and they have quite a few AP-2 at initiative attacks but I'm unfamiliar with them.

[SnorriSnorrison]

FnP won't save us when you're overwhelmed by sheer numbers of AP2/3 attacks, many of them at initiative 5. Deamons have are dirt-cheap, and can field 20 models in a squad by under 200 points, or dead on 200. That's a potential we may not overlook when pondering the new codex. We might have the advantage against stuff like Bloodletters which are slower than our Assault Marines, but the Slaaneshi deamons can pull of some very fast assaults with their chariots followed by hordes of deamonettes which then will tear your force apart in close combat.
 

Even the ranged stuff from Khorne, while ridiculuously looking, is quite potent and can be a nuisance from early game on.
 

 

Snorri