pre heresy Salamanders question.

[cypher 89]

hey all im considering collecting a pre heresy salamanders army and basing it on the drop site massacre, i read a bit about 40k salamanders and about certain aspects of them and one thing that got me was there skin and eyes, which i like as it looks cool with there green power Armour but it got me thinking that a pre heresy army for salamanders wouldn't have this, well not throughout all the legion would they due to part of of it coming from terra? not sure if there fluff or anything that proves or disproves it?

 

im interested as id like to add more variety to a pre heresy salamanders force is all.

 

cheers

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Hi Mate, I'd say you were correct, the older Terran marines would still be fair skinned, while the newer recruits would be dark

[lokkorex]

i thought their dark skin and red-coloured eyes came from their gene-seed, and that before they reunited with Vulkan the were mistrusted as mutants by other astartes and imperial forces.

 

i think their index astartes said so anyway.

 

or am i mistaking them for some other legion?

[cypher 89]

i thought their dark skin and red-coloured eyes came from their gene-seed, and that before they reunited with Vulkan the were mistrusted as mutants by other astartes and imperial forces.

 

i think their index astartes said so anyway.

 

or am i mistaking them for some other legion?

 

all i found on it was this

Also, as a result of a reaction between their genetics and the high levels of radiation on Nocturne, Salamanders battle brothers have dark or jet black skin and bright, burning eyes. This frightening appearance is entirely superficial, but has intimidated more than one rebellion into submission without firing a shot.[2a]

Culture

 

so the salamanders legion before vulkan would have come from terra in as i read it they wouldnt of have the jet black skin and red eyes

[Sentinalsam87]

I do remember reading on a wiki site that the Terra born Salamanders were not black skinned.

 

And defect comes from a combination of Nocturne's solar radiation and the gene-seed.

 

But on another wiki it stated that the Nocturnians where surprised to see the fair skinned "stranger" (The Emperor) when he showed up to rejoin with Vulkan.

[The Colossus]

Vulkan would probably have the black skin and red eyes, due to him having the geneseed, but would he have had these characteristics when he arrived? Seeing as how he comes from Terra.

 

I would imagine that the terrans, if they spent enough time on Nocturne would end up with dark skin, as they would then be exposed to the radiation. I'm guessing that Nocturnians are dark skinned, but the Marines become almost black, with red eyes once they get the geneseed. I can't imagine that ordinary Nocturnians have red eyes, but you never know. Vulkan would probably have the black skin and red eyes, due to him having the geneseed, but would

[VulkansFury]

I believe that when Vulkan was described in the Fulgrim novel he was said to be coal black skinned. I always imagine him as that and have seen him depicted that way in much of the fan art. I repainted all my Sallies from a dark brown skin to the coal black with red eyes when the fluff changed. One thing that I like is that the Salamander trilogy novels also talk about Salamanders having different hair colors. I know at least one was said to have red hair. I also like to use white or a blonde color because it really pops on the models. Go forth and paint in Vulkan's Name

[Lord Heremes]

According to Promethean suns even the Terrence born marines have coal black skin and red eyes

[Sentinalsam87]

Yeah in the Tome of Fire books Tsu'gan has a bright red beard, while Chaplin Elysius has stark white hair, but most seem to shave their head.

 

One of the wikis I read stated that by the time a novitiate becomes a full fledged scout his skin has turned black.

[LostAlone]

I guess the question here is if the Terran Sallies have spent any significant amount of time on Nocturne or not. It's never mentioned how long it takes to 'go black' (and presumably to not go back), but I think we can assume that it doesn't take a huge amount of time to happen. Obviously it won't happen over-night, but since its radiation that is everywhere all the time, it will happen pretty fast. As a thought experiment to help imagining how long it might take, imagine you are basically unkillable and uninjurable, and for whatever reason you lay on a sunbed for 24 hours a day... How long would it take to get ... erm... blacked up ? (I'm pretty sure there isn't a non-racist sounding way to say that, but my apologies all the same). Not long. A few weeks ?

 

At the time that Vulkan was re-discovered, obviously no-one except him had spent any time there, but by the time of the Heresy... who can say ?

 

My feeling is that there will be a decent number of Sallies who have never been to Nocturne, simply because of their crusading duties. The more important or valuable guys including master of the fleet, non-reserve-company captains, veteran sergeants, terminators and some of the tech marines probably never visited Nocturne unless they survived till after the Heresy (possible but unlikely). On the other hand, all scouts would definitely have been there for training and induction by the time of the Heresy, along with reserve and training officers, master of the armory and the rest of the tech marines, with some number of companies as a garrison (its hard to tell exactly how many... unlike in M41 they almost certainly wouldn't have half the legion back at home, because legions were so huge and needed everywhere all the time. But I can't imagine they only left a few hundred marines on a legions home world either... ). It's a fair bet that a majority of the regular battle brothers would be black-skinned, some being new(ish) recruits, others having served some time on Nocturne in a variety of capacities.

 

If anything, from a creative perspective, I like the idea of only certain men in the Legion being light skinned, creating a very tangible badge of seniority and pride but also melancholy for those who have it. To be light skinned is to be one of the original, one of the few who survived. Even for those who didn't rise in rank, it shows decades of service, but to be light skinned also shows that you have never seen 'home', and having seen more death than any person should... Every Nocturnian marine has taken the shoes of a man that the Terran's saw die; thousands of brothers and friends.

 

It certainly works for me from an artistic perspective too. The difference between light and dark skinned men is very striking and can certainly change the composition of a model. Different squads having a different balance of light and dark skinned troops is also an interesting dynamic that adds a lot more depth to your force, giving the impression that each squad if not each marine has his own story parallel to the legions history. Squads like Veteran's would likely be mostly light-skinned, but with a few dark skinned members who proved themselves quickly. Squads like Tacticals would probably be mostly dark skinned, with the odd light skinned sergeant or special weapon trooper. For assaults or devastators you can mix it up however you choose. Any officer could be either. It's probably worth mentioning that any light skinned marines would be likely to be looking old so perhaps use space wolf heads or some green stuff to make that distinction, or not. Whatever works for you.

 

As for hair colour, as I understand it the Sallies are all genetically white (like everyone else in the future) so they continue to have the anglo-saxon mix of hair colours. Anything from black to blonde or ginger is technically fine but do some restraint with that last one. The M41 sallies I have painted that have hair at all have dark hair, because honestly black guys look hilarious rather than heroic with ginger hair. I would also recommend avoiding the urge to give dark skinned sallies afros, cornrows or dreadlocks if you are going for fluffy. Remember, GW says there are no black men in the future, merely white people with an unfortunate but harmless condition.

[Lord Heremes]

Funny how you mention how orange hairs looks odd on dark skin, numeon the leader of vulkans honor guard had a cat right orange mowhawk

[Nocturne Noble]

Any Marine with Vulkan's gene seed will develop the typical Salamanders traits as soon as they reach Nocturne on account of the local suns radiation interacting with it. The features of Terran Marines who haven't been to Nocturne wouldn't change from what they naturally are, though with Terra being a world of varied ethnicities there's no reason why a Terran born Marine wouldn't have any complexion you like.

[Rider-75]

The implants in the marine include the Melanochromic organ that essentially gives marines the ability to get a "supertan" very quickly to protect them from solar (and other) radiation very quickly:

 

Melanchromic Organ

Phase 13: This implant controls the amount of melanin in a Marine's skin. Exposure to high levels of sunlight will result in the Marine's skin darkening to compensate. It also protects the Marine from other forms of radiation.1

 

I've always assumed that this would be a rapid reaction, otherwise what'd be the point?

 

My other assumption, maybe based on reading it somewhere, is that it is this particular organ that goes a bit awry in Salamanders, producing so much Melanin that they go jet black. If the Nocturnines are already dark skinned (which would be expected as an evolutionary method of protecting them from the solar radiation) then it would explain why the Salamamders turn jet black, rather than just dark. Think of them getting even darker than dark skinned.

 

By that train of thought, even paler skinned Terran marines would turn very dark skinned, perhaps almost black, very soon after arrival on Nocturne.

[Ivory]

@ LostAlone

 

I have just read your dialogue on the Pre Heresy Salamanders thread found here : http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=264569

And I'm extremely offended.

 

Unlike most modern, conventional science fiction universes like Mass Effect, Star Wars and Halo. Warhammer 40k hasn't CLEARLY clarified ethnicities in the 41st milennium. The Cadian people have purple eyes but they are still white or caucasian aren't they ? The people of Nocturne have red eyes but to me, they are still Black.

 

I believe the White Scars to be Mongols ( see their names and culture ) and the Salamanders to be African ( see their names and culture ). and the Crimson Fists to be Latin American or perhaps Spanish ( see names )

 

Most Salamander Names use apostrophes and the likes, here are some examples :

 

M'karra - Brother M'karra serves as one of the Chapter's Techmarines.

Zambias - An accomplished member of the Chapter's Librarium, Brother Zambias deployed with the 4th Company during the Battle for Slato.

Suda - Apothecary of the 4th Company during the Battle for Slato.

Nubean - Captain of the 4th Company during the Battle for Slato.

Zen'de - Former Master of Recruits and Captain of the 7th Company. Master Zen'de is a renowned Promethean philosopher of the Chapter.

Firedrake Veteran Eb'ak - Member of Vulkan He'stan's strike force during the mission to the Volgorrah Rift.

Firedrake Veteran Ma'nubian - Member of the Chapter's Firedrake (1st) Company.

Land Speeder Sergeant Arkan - Brother Arkan served as commander of a Land Speeder during the Horus Heresy.

 

Allow me to explain names like M'karra and others with apostrophes African and Carribean names often begin with an M' ( the apostrophe is extremely common in African / Carribean names ) look :

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M'Baye_Niang

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yann_M'Vila

 

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/people/cameroon/...C3%A9phane-mbia

 

http://www.behindthename.com/bb/fact/3170392

 

Common African names like Yar'Adua

 

Heka'tan - Survivor of the Drop Site Massacre during the opening stages of the Horus Heresy.

 

Tu'Shan - Current Chapter Master of the Salamanders and the Regent of Prometheus, Tu'Shan is a living legend. His victories and accomplishments are well known and he is an example to the Salamanders' values of compassion, duty and self-sacrifice. Tu'shan personally participated in the Third War for Armageddon, his Chapter earning much fame and adoration from the populace for their daring and desperate battles to protect refugee columns and the people of Armageddon.

 

T'kell - Legendary Techmarine and Master of the Forge of the Salamanders, built the Vault beneath Mount Deathfire where the ashes of fallen Salamanders are immolated in lava upon the Pyre-slab, their essence returned to the heart of Nocturne. T'kell built the Vault under the watchful eyes of Vulkan himself.

 

Read this and UNDERSTAND.

 

Common Nigerian family names like : Yar'Adua and Congo ( That's right, African family names, like European last names can be named after countries ) Look at these Salamander names :

 

Zambias - An accomplished member of the Chapter's Librarium, Brother Zambias deployed with the 4th Company during the Battle for Slato.

Suda - Apothecary of the 4th Company during the Battle for Slato.

Nubean - Captain of the 4th Company during the Battle for Slato.

Firedrake Veteran Ma'nubian - Member of the Chapter's Firedrake (1st) Company.

Land Speeder Sergeant Arkan - Brother Arkan served as commander of a Land Speeder during the Horus Heresy.

 

Zambias - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zambia

The Republic of Zambia is an African country.

 

Suda - Sounds remarquably similar to Sudan or am I being paranoid ?

 

Nubean and Ma'nubian - Sound remaruably similar to the Nubian people ( currently the predominant ethnic group of Sudan and the only black nation to have colonised the Egyptian Empire for three successive dynasties. See King Taharqa. The Nubians had some of the finest archers in the world. Look into it it's interesting to see Africa in it's true limelight rather than the poverty stricken slums CNN Loves to show the world. Africa is developped in many areas but we choose to FOCUS on the negative side.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_people

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharqa

 

Land Speeder Sergeant Arkan - Brother Arkan served as commander of a Land Speeder during the Horus Heresy.

 

Doesn't Arkan sound similar to Akan ? As in the proud Akan people of the Empire of Ashanti ? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashanti_Empire

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akan_people

 

 

I was wondering if you could go into more detail as to why the 41st milennium is devoid of black people ? I have been a fervant, fervant follower of the Warhammer 40k franchise for just over ten years now and have seen black people on both the Catachan and Cadian Codex cover art. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why and on what basis you came to learn such blatant racism in a hobby that I have come to love ?

 

The Salamanders Chapter are African themed. The tribes, the rites of passage and ALL pre Matt Ward sacrilege shows us that the Salamander Legion are definately black and definately will have cornrows, afros and dreadlocks ( without taking the Terran recruits who are in my opinion predominantly fair skinned but can also be dark or tanned as well since planet earth as you are aware is not Scandinavia people of different skin colours have lived and thrived here for milleniums... ).

 

The Melanchromic Organ controls the amount of melanin in one's skin. The ONLY reason black people are dark skinned is because of a higher level of melanin. So yes, the Salamanders are DEFINATELY black. The charcoal skin and red eyes is a gene seed DEFICENCY similar to that of the Space Wolves with their elongated teeth and sometimes wolf appearance (Wulfen).

 

Phase 13: This implant controls the amount of melanin in a Marine's skin. Exposure to high levels of sunlight will result in the Marine's skin darkening to compensate. It also protects the Marine from other forms of radiation.

 

 

Here are a few pictures that reinforce MY beliefs, especially the last one :

 

http://www.desura.com/groups/warhammer-40k...primarch-vulkan

 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Sa..._Appearance.jpg

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=salamande...29,r:0,s:0,i:69

 

How awesome would Wesley Snipes be as a Space Marine ? In my opinion damn bad ass !

 

Dragonforge made these too :

 

http://miniaturereview.blogspot.co.uk/2010...n-head-set.html

 

Sorry to burst your little bubble or white supremacy but I believe all people to be equal despite their origins we are all humans of the human race. Of mankind. I can't stand racism and to quote your speech on how "Only the white race lives in the 41st milennium" really disgusts me.

 

40k is whatever we choose for it to be. Perhaps you have had bad encounters with black people, I myself have had bad encounters with white people but I've also had excellent, unforgettable friendships and bonds. When I see the amount of effort people are going through to make the Salamander Legion into a bunch of mutants it really pains me.

[Pavement Artist]

@Ivory

 

The thing is, there is an area of contention at the moment with the Salamanders. I remember in the Armageddon codex, the way they are painted shows them as having a Afro Caribbean skin tone and yet in later texts, the black skin is literally jet black due to the gene seed, where as the marines themselves may be of Caucasian stock.

 

Just because people are choosing to go the Jet black, red eyes route, does not make them racist. It means they're adhering to the current depiction of the chapter in the fluff.

 

You may prefer to portray your guys with an emphasis on the African theme prevalent in some of the lore. If so, that's completely your choice mate. It is your army. However, be careful about coming down on people that don't necessarily adhere to it assuming it's because of racial matters. In a game involving toy soldiers, It's extremely puerile to bring something so inconsequential as race into it.

[Ivory]

@ Witchunter Krain

 

I am not trying to intimidate or coerce people into sharing my point of view but when I heard LostAlone's post, which I quote :

 

"I would also recommend avoiding the urge to give dark skinned sallies afros, cornrows or dreadlocks if you are going for fluffy. Remember, GW says there are no black men in the future, merely white people with an unfortunate but harmless condition."

 

I've seen countless depictions of black / dark skinned people in 40k. On what basis does he draw this information from ? Which Gamesworkshop official said that ? It's disgusting that bigoted people can get away with injecting their racial hatred into classic science fiction and that people like myself have to be reprimanded when all I'm doing is replying to what I find to be, quite frankly, an offensive comment.

 

If LostAlone's sentence above is not of racial matters than what is ?

[Aegnor]

Ivory - LostAlone can speak for himself if he chooses to, but on my reading you've taken his comments the wrong way around. As such, calling him a white supremacist is very harsh. By my reading, LostAlone was complaining at the lack of racial diversity in the humans of the 40K universe. The retcon of the Salamanders was annoying to people on this point, because it changed them from being marines who were African just because of who they are, to "demonic appearing" Marines cause of a "gene defect". Personally I don't care and are very happy with my Sallies, but in a setting where non-white people are often portrayed as pretty marginal to the setting, it wasn't a great explanation.

 

Anyway, can I suggest that you ask LostAlone or others to clarify his meaning before leaping to calling him racist? Racism is a disgusting thing and not an accusation to toss around lightly in my view.

[Pavement Artist]

@ Witchunter Krain

 

I am not trying to intimidate or coerce people into sharing my point of view but when I heard LostAlone's post, which I quote :

 

"I would also recommend avoiding the urge to give dark skinned sallies afros, cornrows or dreadlocks if you are going for fluffy. Remember, GW says there are no black men in the future, merely white people with an unfortunate but harmless condition."

 

I've seen countless depictions of black / dark skinned people in 40k. On what basis does he draw this information from ? Which Gamesworkshop official said that ? It's disgusting that bigoted people can get away with injecting their racial hatred into classic science fiction and that people like myself have to be reprimanded when all I'm doing is replying to what I find to be, quite frankly, an offensive comment.

 

If LostAlone's sentence above is not of racial matters than what is ?

 

You appear to be missing the irony in his statement.

 

The "There are no black people in 40k" comment is a dig at the fact that the salamanders have been possibly retconned from being of Afro Carribean stock to now being (literally) Black due to a genetic quirk thrown up by their geneseed and the conditions of their homeworld.

 

Nobody is reprimanding you mate, when i say i don't want race being a factor in the hobby, i mean that from all sides. I feel the problem is that you're seeing bigotry where none exists.

[Ivory]

@ Aegnor

 

Your right, and I guess I got carried away in the heat of the moment. But it's such a frustrating and powerless feeling that the only black soldiershen I started 40k they were my favourite force and the reason I started the hobby. The Armageddon Codex came out shortly afterwards and looking back at them then and what they've become now is really disgusting.

 

For my Salamander Company there are veterans from Terra with fair complexions, recruits from Nocturne with dark complexions and genetically deficent soldiers who have undergone the metamorphose.

 

@ Everyone : Sory guys, only now have I understood and I feel like the biggest retard in history. Sorry again, I realise LostAlone was being sarcastic. Sorry guys that was real stupid of me

[Pavement Artist]

No harm, no foul mate. Now get out there and set fire to things :blink:

[Ivory]

Hahaha will do brother

[ZAChos]

@Ivory: If you'd of thought someone was being Racist and put up with it, then you would've had something to feel bad about. Misreading someones comment on a forum is something we've all done, and sarcasm is a really difficult thing to put across in a post.

 

As it stands, I really dislike the changes made to the Salamanders fluff. The point about the gene seed I thought was that it made all salamanders black all the time, rather than able to change their colour like the rest of the marines. The change to jet black with red eyes is a load of rubbish, especially as red eyes are due to a lack of colour in the iris rather than an abundance, which is what you'd get with an overreaction to radiation.

[Ivory]

Yeah, the new fluff just ruins everything. I'm going to include a mix, I'm especially keen on the idea of Terran Veterans in my Company. Diversity really adds to the fluff.

 

Still feel like a nonce for misinterpreting but hey, at least I've learnt something about leaping to conclusions.

 

PS. Forgeworld has announced that the Horus Heresy Book II will be called Massacre and will cover the Isstvan III Drop Site Massacre and guess what... Night Lords, Salamanders, Iron Hands and Iron Warriors will be featured ! 2012 will be year to remember lads