Of Icons and Marks...

[Melekharn]

Greetings all!

 

I've always been an avid fan of all things Tzeentch.

My first WHFB list was wholly and souly Tzeentch, focused on blasting the enemy apart with incredibly pyro-technics.

In the previous version codex, the first three units I took were a Tzeentch Lord with Daemonweapon and TDA, followed by two 10 man Tz:CSM.

 

I recently acquired the new codex, and while flicking through, I noticed we can give our guys the wonderful ability called soulblaze, and per model (in a basic 10 man CSM squad) had been halved. At first, I thought this was a rediculously cheap diamond in what is normally a very rough area of town.

I then read the rules properly.... *sigh*

 

Has anyone had any success with the SoulBlaze special rule?

I understand it's no game changer, but has it contributed anything worth noting?

 

Another gripe of mine is that I don't think the new version of the Mark (6++ sv) is all that good unless you really plan on combining with the Icon.

Sure, a 6++ save is better than nothing, but there's also a little thing called "cover"... a hedge provides the same save, for example.

Once again, based on the 10 man Tz:CSM squad, this brings the points within 5 points of the previous icon.

I would have preferred the Icons to maintain the ability to "focus" deep strikers rather than an increased combat resolution, as a lot of my own tactics focused on delivering a squad of Terminators within rapid-fire range.

 

Yes, we're getting more toys for the same points, but from what I've bothered to read of the other Gods, Khorne seems to be getting the long straw, covered in sugar and dipped in double-choc, extra cream milkshakes.

The special rules we've been given, while they follow the fluff, don't give us the play style that Khorne have.

 

In fact, I feel our rules have given us a dirty big slap in the face.

 

Khorne worshippers have been given a number of special rules that directly effect the way they enter combat.

- Rage (+2 attacks on the charge if memory serves me well)

- Counter-attack (I can't remember the roll required, but the potential to gain +1 attack when Charged)

- Furious Charge (+1S on the charge)

- Re-roll charge distance (speaks for itself)

 

We get:

- SoulBlaze ( a 50:50 chance to deal an extra few wounds at the end of each turn. Should we fail that roll... it's gone until the enemy is hit again)

- 6++ invul save (again, speaks for itself)

 

From my perspective, Khorne's rulles can drastically shange how a game is flowing with a single, all out charge (assuming the player rolls average/well)

We seem to be more of a support role - withering down the enemy to make things a bit easier for "those guys."

 

 

I guess, my real questions to you all are as follows:

For a 10 man Tz:CSM unit, is the 35 points worth it?

Can we be an offensive list, or are we destined to pave the path of success to the other Gods (namely Khorne)

 

I hope I've made sense.

If not, I blame Tzeentch for twisting my words (I get carried away when I rant, and jump from one thing to another....)

 

Look forward to hearing your success, and your opinions.

 

~Melekharn

[Minsc]

Tzeentch got the short end of the stick once again. I'm not sure why the mark got nerfed from the last codex, it was already the weakest mark. How is giving a unit a 5++ in any way overpowered when it costs ~3-5 pts / model?

Mark of Tzeentch is not worth it on any unit who doesn't come with a IV-save by default, and the Icon of Tzeentch is imo just a "f*ck you Tzeentch-players"-message from GW. Even the Nurgle-Icon is better, and it's also cheaper - and I rarely use it myself, if ever.

 

On regular CSM, you're better of saving the points and/or unless you want to give them a different Mark, just give them the Fearless-Icon.

[Brother Nihm]

Has anyone had any success with the SoulBlaze special rule?

I understand it's no game changer, but has it contributed anything worth noting?

SB averages a single extra S4 hit on average.

Hardly a game changer and worth very little I am afraid. :P

[Vesper]

In fact, I feel our rules have given us a dirty big slap in the face.

 

Pretty much.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

There is a reason why I lost enthusiasm on repainting my Thousand sons/finishing units, and am now focusing on heresy Salamanders/infinity/Call to arms :Starfleet/Battlefleet Gothic....

[Melekharn]

So, I've just read the rest of the Chaos Gods rules and I must say, I am sorely dissapointed with Tzeentch.

 

So far, you've all raised some great arguements that fall against my favourite (now fluff-wise only) God.

 

I remember way back when... many many moons ago... Tzeentch was actually a God you could count on.

The first White Dwarf I ever picked up had a Lord of Change standing triumphantly on a mountain of dice.

Every piece of fluff I have read on the four Gods suggests that Tzeentch was the most powerful, but destroyed his most powerful artefact to "level the playingfield" and avoid the three others combining forces against him.

Tzeentch wasn't just a God. Tzeentch was the God.

 

He's steadily gone down hill since.

 

As I mull over the current rules, I find myself wishing that Tzeentch had remained unchanged from the previous version.

Every other God has gained something. I feel we've lost something.

The other kids got cool new 21 speed mountain bikes.

We got our older sisters pink pushbike.

...With tassles.

...And bright coloured spoke-clips.

...And a basket on the front.

...With a flower.

 

I really want to like our new powers. I really, really do.

We could have been so much more... A more potent version of Soulblaze might have made up for the drop in our Invul save, for example.

I think you've proven to me that I may as well pull the Tzeentch parts off my models and strap on Nurgle or Khorne parts from a gaming perspective.

 

I'm still curious to hear about any tales of glory you may have though..

So come on.. Cough up!

[Kastor Krieg]

I faced Blood Angels, 2000 pts a side, yesterday. I run an Egyptian theme, rules-wise mixing up kSons with Ahriman and "Nurgle" everything else (Spawns, Lord with Mace, 2x 10 CSM with 2 plasma, so on). Nurgleish ones, obviously, were OK, but Ahriman with Telepathy, using Dominate on enemy terminators and Vindicator, using Invisibility on his own squad and allowing his Sorcerer to close up and use Doombolt just purely OWNED, while the enemy was just derping around :)

[vonny]

I've just played a 1750 pts game with the following list:

 

Ahriman

Sorceror, mastery lvl 2, Sigil of Corruption

2x 8-man TS squad (so with the independant character attached, you get 9 :whistlingW:) in rhino's

2x chaos pred with autocannon/lascannon sponsons

Obliterators with mark of nurgle (I'm sorry, but I couldn't justify buying a worse mark for more points when you don't actually see the difference anyway. They still look like 1ksons sorcerors in termi armour).

 

Allied to this was some planetary sorceror cult:

 

Primaris Psyker

10-man psyker battle squad. In a chimera.

infantry platoon with command squad, 2 infantry squads both with missile launcher and 1 commissar.

 

 

 

And I faced off vs the horrible Space Wolves, including a wolf lord on thunderwolf complete with his buddies on thunderwolves, some razorbacks, a rune priest, long fangs... you name it.

 

 

On a table that they use for show in the games workshop, so it was literally covered in terrain. Hard to get long range LoS and all one of my preds did was just shoot at some wolf scouts that just blew up his brother tank before dying himself. He lost his tracks somewhere in the woods he was trying to get through.

 

 

And I still won.

 

The psychological advantage of having to roll SO MANY psychic powers at the start of battle.. The hallucination power rolled by my unmarked sorceror, which turned the tide in one of the two decisive battles, while ahriman, by the skin of his teeth, managed to force staff his wolf lord into submission while dying himself. And the imperial guard unit just shooting off some missiles before becoming one huge tarpit. It was difficult, yes. But it was also fun, and still doable.

It's not the best force I can get out of the new codex. But it's a fun one.

 

Also very funny: My 'cultist sorcerors' kept failing their psychic powers, and even miscast once, while my true 1ksons did what they had to do and messed those puppies up :D. Well, except for when the rune-staff and the wolf-tail talismans came into play. But still messed them up enough.

[*Furyou Miko]

I had a 1500 point game. Admittedly, I lost it - just by the skin of my teeth, mind.

 

Aeronwy (counts-as Ahriman)

Daemon Prince (lvl 3, Tz, Scrolls, Wings, Armour)

 

20 Chaos Marines (Autocannon, MoTz)

 

Armour Wraiths (9 Thousand Sons, Force Staff, Gift)

 

Armour Wraiths (9 Thousand Sons, Force Sword, Gift)

 

Against Blood Angels (Librarian on Bike, Death Company, 2 Dreadnoughts, Bike squad, 2 Tactical squads w/plasma)

 

First turn: Daemon Prince casts Boon of Mutation and turns himself into a spawn.

 

Second Turn: A little attrition on both sides. Chaos Spawn is killed by Biker overwatch.

 

Third turn: Biker Combat Squad assaults TK squad, sergeant gets Force Sworded, Bikers kill 0 and lose 1. Run away. Get shot up in my shooting. Other Biker squad assaults Chaos Marines, fails charge, takes 2 casualties from Overwatch.

 

Fourth turn: Librarian kills Aspiring Sorcerer in a challenge.

 

Fifth/sixth turns: Librarian wipes out remaining TK in that squiad in Challenge. Death Company shred the CSM squad. Ahriman assaults Librarian, kills with Staff, then Ahriman and remaining Thousand Sons rampage up the Blood Angel line, killing everything except a lone, Scoring dreadnought and the Death Company, who are off on the other side of the board.

 

Result: I lose by 3 points (the Dread's objective!)

[Babel_Triumphant]

In my experience, mark of Tzeentch is extremely useful on anything that already has an invulnerable save, like terminators and HQs. Compared to the other marks I think it's just behind Nurgle for the best. Think about it this way: Khorne and Slaanesh marks only help in close combat and even then only against a worthy adversary. Tzeentch, like Nurgle, provides defense against both shooting and close combat.

 

That said, soul blaze is terrible and never worth it.

[Hellios]

In my experience, mark of Tzeentch is extremely useful on anything that already has an invulnerable save, like terminators and HQs. Compared to the other marks I think it's just behind Nurgle for the best. Think about it this way: Khorne and Slaanesh marks only help in close combat and even then only against a worthy adversary. Tzeentch, like Nurgle, provides defense against both shooting and close combat.

 

That said, soul blaze is terrible and never worth it.

 

 

I'm not saying you don't have a point but what you said for the Khorne and Slaanesh stuff applies to Tzeentch as well; that it only works a benefit in certain situations. Your ++ save is only worth it if you are being hit by something that ignores your armor. This is assuming you are not behind cover or inside a transport.

[*Furyou Miko]

I think the most galling thing about the new Mark of Tzeentch is that the Sisters get it for the price of WS, S, T and I 4, when we have to pay a whole two points extra for the privilege and it blocks off some of our other options.

 

Yes, that was a bit trolly. What I really mean to say is that a 6++ invulnerable may not feel like much, but when you're down to the wire it's a very nice safety net to have.

[JeffJedi]

If only squads with the MoT could buy Sorcerer upgrades and got Inferno Bolts also.

[Daedalus81]

Mark of Tzeentch stacks with the skyshield pad. Its cost effective on a unit of 35 cultists (take that as you will). If it was 5+ then it would have made all Tzeentch units able to ignore the need of cover and probably too powerful in that regard.

 

The icon gives +1 combat res - soulblaze is just grazy. Warpflame gargolyes on a pred are awesome.

[Andrés Pacheco]

Was wondering if maybe the Noise Marine's sonic weapon's "ignore cover" rule (and the boon to flamer/template weapons with the return of Overwatch) was an omen of things to come generally in 6th Ed, and the Tzeentch mark providing a IV save would earn it's points as more and more codices (that's right, it's "codices" ;) ) start dishing out cover ignoring weapons?

 

Might not still be worth the points, but if every army can field some AP3 templates and ignore cover weapons, a 6++ might be a bit handier? Maybe not :D

 

Thinking of 1KSons as great MSU at the moment - as many squads of 5 in a rhino as you can get, whizzing around casting spells at everyone and laying down loads of IoF markers to max the burn. Undead Mad Max ftw

[Daedalus81]

Was wondering if maybe the Noise Marine's sonic weapon's "ignore cover" rule (and the boon to flamer/template weapons with the return of Overwatch) was an omen of things to come generally in 6th Ed, and the Tzeentch mark providing a IV save would earn it's points as more and more codices (that's right, it's "codices" :D ) start dishing out cover ignoring weapons?

 

Might not still be worth the points, but if every army can field some AP3 templates and ignore cover weapons, a 6++ might be a bit handier? Maybe not :P

 

Thinking of 1KSons as great MSU at the moment - as many squads of 5 in a rhino as you can get, whizzing around casting spells at everyone and laying down loads of IoF markers to max the burn. Undead Mad Max ftw

 

MoT is worth it on 5 CSM as long as they take at least 6 wounds from weapons that deny an armor save and they have no cover. Its more worth it on the 35 man blob of cultists. Could also be a handy luck roll in a challenge with power weapons. In any case...its cheap!

[Babel_Triumphant]

Statistically if they take 6 wounds from weapons that deny armor with no cover they're all dead even with mark of tzeentch.

[RolandTHTG]

Honestly, the only reason for the nerf I can see is that Independent characters no longer come with an Invuln. So to make people actually buy the Aura/not have to charge ICs horribly for the mark, they nerfed the mark.

[minigun762]

IF I took cultists, I'd consider MoTz. They have a terrible save anyway, might as well have one that they can actually use. Then again its only because I'd use them as mobile cover.

[Andrés Pacheco]

Was wondering if maybe the Noise Marine's sonic weapon's "ignore cover" rule (and the boon to flamer/template weapons with the return of Overwatch) was an omen of things to come generally in 6th Ed, and the Tzeentch mark providing a IV save would earn it's points as more and more codices (that's right, it's "codices" ;) ) start dishing out cover ignoring weapons?

 

Might not still be worth the points, but if every army can field some AP3 templates and ignore cover weapons, a 6++ might be a bit handier? Maybe not ;)

 

Thinking of 1KSons as great MSU at the moment - as many squads of 5 in a rhino as you can get, whizzing around casting spells at everyone and laying down loads of IoF markers to max the burn. Undead Mad Max ftw

 

MoT is worth it on 5 CSM as long as they take at least 6 wounds from weapons that deny an armor save and they have no cover. Its more worth it on the 35 man blob of cultists. Could also be a handy luck roll in a challenge with power weapons. In any case...its cheap!

 

I was really thinking of 1KSons though, who have a 4++, rather than a 6++ - better than most cover, and at least they need 12 AP3 wounds to wipe them out. You're right that regular CSM with MoT are pretty useless (lots better for massed cultist, as pointed out)

[Excessus]

Problem with MoT on cultists is that you most likely are better off by getting a few extra cultists instead of giving them a mark...

[minigun762]

Problem with MoT on cultists is that you most likely are better off by getting a few extra cultists instead of giving them a mark...

 

True, I was thinking more of an already maxed out squad.

For less then max, you can add 3 bodies for the price of saving 2.

[Melekharn]

So, I finally got around to giving the mark and Icon a go today.

 

I whole-heartedly agree that MoT is really only useful on models who already have invulnerable save.

 

The Icon however, I'm not prepared to dismiss.

Sure, Soulblaze wasn't game changing. At no point did I think "I'm lucky I took that!" but there were a plenty of times I thought, "Heh! That was cool!"

The look on my opponents face when I picked up the dice at the very end of my turn and rolled to see how many more of his models would fall...

 

I understand that against Power armoured equivalents, soulblaze isn't very useful, but against Tyranids, Imperial guard or Orks, it's a whole different story.

In my experience, it can be a weapon on it's own against these less-armoued armies.

 

Maybe not worth the 40 points in total I had to spend to get it, but it's the same price as the previous icon (on a unit of 10 CSM) and against my regular opponent, a lot more useful!