Honour Guard or Sanguinary Guard

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I'm debating over who should normally accompany Dante in the "Dantewing" army I am now working on (I plan to make my first purchases this week, BTW) and having a hard time deciding. There are pluses and minuses to each option of having a Sanguinary Guard escort and an honour guard. I like the 2+ saves on the SG, but I like the much cheaper access to FNP and ability to have longer range via meltaguns in the honour guard.

 

I am thinking of a combination for using Dante's precision deep-strike and slagging something important. So It's either SG + 3 infernus + chapter banner + JP Sang. priest or Honour Guard + 3 meltaguns + Blood Champion + Chapter banner + power wearpons + jump packs. The Honour Guard combo is actually 25 pts cheaper despite all the upgrades due to the cheap Sanguinary Novitice.

 

"Rule of Cool" - wise it's a toss-up since I have an idea to use the Marneus Calgar honour guard for my own and think they'll look really sharp when painted up. But SG are just awesome too.

 

So, I think it's down to fluff. Which is the fluffier choice for an escort to the Chapter Master?

[fivepointedstar]

Fluffiwse that would be Sanguinary Guards.

Since adding Dante grants you the ability to weld a host of them. Yes they are tough with 2+ armor. But not as flexible as honor gaurds in retropect like arming them with plasma, or meltagun's.

But being a SG has it benifits like better armor, jump packs. Better storm bolter like weapons with ap 4. Master crafted power weapon that can be made either a power sword or power axes, and cheap power fists. plasma pistols, and infernus pistol. Add a chapter banner, and you have on hard hitting unit. With their death masks it allows you "mess" with your enemies stats. making sang gaurds good for thier cost.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I'm not sure if the Sanguinary Guards are there to protect the Chapter Master, because that's clearly a Honour Guard's purpose.

 

I've always looked at them as an institution within the chapter, under command of Dante as everyone else. There are more sources telling us that the Sanguinary Guard went to battle without Dante than with him, so I doubt they're guarding the Chapter Master in the same way as the Honour Guard. They served the Primarch only, hence the name obviously, and serving the Chapter Master in the same way would actually make him on par with the Primarch. I don't think that Dante is that self-important.

 

Game-wise, Sanguinary Guard all the way. Deathknight already mentioned why, they are simply more resilient than Honour Guards, and since our Novitiates aren't hidden anymore you can just as well buy a 'normal' Sanguinary Priest.

Always, always buy the Chapter Banner.

 

 

 

Snorri

[Calnus]

Fluff-wise, Dante should drop within a nice Honor Guard bubble. But there's nothing saying on your next turn, he doesn't line up with an SG squad thats close by for a joint assault. In fact, you'll most likely want to keep the HG cheap, without the banner, and instead give them plasmaguns to help take down Terminators (which SG don't like fighting at all). They almost act like a suicide squad/wounds for Dante at that point, since you just peel him off to meet up with an SG squad in your next movement phase, prefereably the one with your Chapter Banner. That allows any remaining HG (who will get pasted, since 4x plasma scares people) to either run off and keep range, or absorb overwatch fire for something more important. Plus, the Novitiate's bubble is 6" wide, and all you have to do is tag it with the units who want FnP. Should be easily doable to just hide the HG after you use up their extra wounds for Dante.

[DominicJ]

I think fluff wise, a Dante wing should be all SG

But my planned list uses Dante with an honour guard, for melta guns

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Thanks for the replies. Sounds like for fluff purposes I should at least have an Honour Guard available, even if I don't bring them every battle.

 

As mentioned, my plan is to use the models from Calgar's honour guard, only modifying them to be a bit more BA-looking, then paint them up white to match up with "Dante" who will be Nicodemus Dolorosus, Chapter Master of the Angels Sorrowful, who is to be based on the Cato Sicarus model. I think they'll be a pretty cool looking unit. Plus then, of course, a good number of Sanguinary Guard in the army as well.

 

Calnus: those are some really interesting points you make there re tactics. I could possibly deep strike Dante with the HG full of plasma and an infernus-heavy SG with all the trimmings nearby. Then bail out with Dante to join the SG for the melee fun. I agree that a plasma-heavy HG will be a fire magnet, so I would drop all the add-ons to keep them cheaper.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

Honour Guard for Dante. My preferred combo is Blood Champion (with Ax), Chapter Banner, Power Sword, Infernus Pistol, 2 meltaguns, 2 Storm Shields, 3 Meltabombs, Jump Packs. Expensive but, its versatile and durable. Concept being that it should be able to take most opposition if played to its strengths. With 4 melta weapons you should be able to take out most vehicles and monstrous creatures from shooting or at least hurt them considerably. If someone issues a challenge that can instant kill Dante (usually going to be marines with powerfists or hammers) just accept it with the Champion, with W5 and S5/S6 on the charge and AP2 with A5 on the charge he should be able to kill or at least put a few wounds on any one who is a threat to Dante. Meanwhile Dante and the rest of the squad do their thing. The only thing you need to avoid are Tarpit units and even most of them will suffer from Dante's Deathmask as most Tarpit units are fairly low Ld, and seeing as how the Deathmask is a Ld Test not a Morale Test even Fearless won't save them.

 

-Samirus

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Interesting combination, Lord Commander Samirus.

 

How do you divy-up the wargear you've described?

[LordCommanderSamirus]

Chapter Banner has Sword, Infernus Pistol, and meltabombs. 2 Generic Honour Guard have Meltagun, Storm Shield, Meltabombs. Champion has Power Ax. When moving this unit the key is to know your enemy. What weapons nearby can threaten them (melta and plasma especially). If you can put the 3 with the shields (champion still has a shield just not as good) up front to absorb some of the incoming harsh fire. I suppose you could for 5pts cheaper switch the Infernus to a Meltagun and switch the sword to a Lightning Claw... lose an attack but gain re-rolled wounds and longer ranged melta weapon.

 

-Samirus

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Thanks again LordCommanderSamirus. I am liking the build you suggest -- I think with Dante's no-scatter deep strike, this could be used to good effect with the shields between the enemy and Dante.

[Tamwulf]

Wow- what a hard choice! Personally, I've only used Dante a handful of times and I wasn't impressed. Probably because he now has a power axe. <_< He's just never been an attractive HQ to me for his points. Anyways...

 

Pro's and Con's of Honor Guard vs. Sanguinary Guard

The assumptions are:

1. That you want the unit to deepstrike with Dante so they don't scatter

2. That you want a dedicated close combat unit

3. That you want a unit that will survive for at least a couple turns and not be a 'Glass Cannon'

 

Both units have a max unit size of five models. Both have the same stat lines except for the armor save. The Honor Guard get two distinct models- the Sanguinary Initiate and Champion. That gives the whole unit FnP, and an extra guy that can take a challenge. This also adds to the cost of the unit. Once you give the Honor Guard jump packs and kit out a power weapon or power fist, add a meltagun... then you have a unit equivalent in cost to the Sanguinary Guard. The HG are not fearless, and neither is Dante- a key factor when dealing with such a small unit. On the upside, the HG have a lot of possible options, and those options come with a cost that adds up quick to the point where every casualty will hurt the effectiveness of the unit. Another nice thing: The Honor Guard do not take up a Force Org slot, which helps a lot when you consider all the excellent Elites slots the BA have.

 

The Sanguinary Guard have two huge advantages over the HG: Fearless and a 2+ armor save. I'll say that again: 2+ armor save. There is not much in the game that ignores a 2+ right now. Power weapons and power fists were always a huge threat to these guys, but now, only p-fists. Everything else, you'll get a 2+ armor save. On top of that, there is no unit leader in the Sanguinary Guard, meaning no challenges. Could be an issue as they will be running with Dante and probably a Sanguinary Priest. Options are more limited then the HG, but for pure close combat, the SG come out ahead- they all have an assault 2, S4 AP4 bolter. Funny enough, they have issues with those same 2+ type of units. The fearless option gives you a lot of outs if/when the unit starts taking casualties. At least they won't break and run away from shooting, or fail a pinning test.

 

If you are going for a close combat unit, the SG are the way to go because of the Glaves and 2+ armor save. Having no FnP hurts a bit, but you probably have a couple Sanguinary Priests wandering around anyways, and it's easy enough to get them within 6". A better overall unit would be the Honor Guard, as they can be given a few more options in shooting and dealing with armor. They probably won't be as effective vs. certain units as the SG will be, but they cost about the same amount of points.

 

Your mileage will vary. For me, it's the Sanguinary Guard all the way just because they look so good. Yeah, you could make the SG models into HG, but it just ain't the same. ;) ;)

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Good analysis Tamwulf. I think I am decided on the Honour Guard for fluff reasons and because of the all-around effectiveness. Also, they can get some storm shields in there which will help with the AP 1/2 weaponry that will no doubt be directed their way (and the SG's 2+ won't help in that regard). Seems to me if they deep strike and nuke something important with their meltaguns, every plasma gun, Leman Russ, etc. will be aimed at them. The Honour Guard actually work out less expensive when you factor in the minimum 75 pts for a Sanguinary priest.

 

I love the Sanguinary Guard also, which is my reason for Dante -- to bring SG as my troops choices. So I will have plenty of them in the army no matter what.