Where do Ravens "fit"

[DominicJ]

For a while now, I've been running my Ravens in support of a, for a lack of a better term, light cavalry list, with bikes, speeders, jumpers ect.

 

And its not really been working.

 

 

I'm wondering, although conceptually, they look and "feel" awesome supporting a light cavalry force interdicting supply columns and such, in game, it doesnt appear to be working.

 

However, when I used them in a fairly immobile footslogging force, they were rather more effective.

 

I'm planning a list (DC in crusader, reclusiarch, 2 ravens, assault squads (and then a Devestator and tactical squad)).

I'm trying to work out if I should ditch the assault squad for more , or the tactical and Dev for more assault/fast.

 

Or even ditch the Ravens for one or the other.

 

Just random thoughts

[Ushtarador]

Use them with TLMM/TLAC and hurricane bolters, and they fit everywhere. The amount of firepower combined with the flexibility is just awesome. Stick a furioso/DC dread or a small scoring squad inside for more tactical options, and I can't see how you would rather have something else :P

[John Rainbow]

Use them with TLMM/TLAC and hurricane bolters, and they fit everywhere.

I have to disagree about the Hurricane bolters. They just aren't that good any more. 30pts for something that won't be able to wound most of the stuff you want to shoot at and that you won't shoot until at the very earliest, the second turn of the Storm Raven being on the board (i.e. T3) isn't that efficient - I'm assuming you'll come on and blast away with the main guns and some missiles here. The Storm Raven is already expensive (though very good!) and I don't think the bolters really add to the unit. That's 30pts points you're not spending elsewhere.

[Ushtarador]

Use them with TLMM/TLAC and hurricane bolters, and they fit everywhere.

They just aren't that good any more. 30pts for something that won't be able to wound most of the stuff you want to shoot at

 

 

I would actually say it's the other way around. We see less mech and more infantry in 6th, so HB got better than they were in 5th. Thanks to PotMs you can always use the MM to crack armor and use the assault cannon and HB to whittle away infantry. Missiles are 4 S8 shots that are not twin-linked, they don't do anything the multimelta doesn't do better. Once they are depleted and most of the armor is dead, the raven has a very low threat potential for its point value. You can expect the HB to almost always score at least 10 hits, which kills even power-armoured targets thanks to weight of dice.

 

If you want an anti-tank unit, take landspeeders with MM or assault bikes, they are a lot cheaper for the task. The hurricane bolters enable the raven to be an excellent allrounder, 30pts is not much for the options you get in return.

[Tamwulf]

Use them with TLMM/TLAC and hurricane bolters, and they fit everywhere.

I have to disagree about the Hurricane bolters. They just aren't that good any more. 30pts for something that won't be able to wound most of the stuff you want to shoot at and that you won't shoot until at the very earliest, the second turn of the Storm Raven being on the board (i.e. T3) isn't that efficient - I'm assuming you'll come on and blast away with the main guns and some missiles here. The Storm Raven is already expensive (though very good!) and I don't think the bolters really add to the unit. That's 30pts points you're not spending elsewhere.

 

Heartily disagree! You have 6 twin linked bolter shots when you take the Hurricane upgrade. Working out the math, you have a better chance of hitting and wounding anything then a full 10 man tactical squad (sgt w/ BP, special weapon, heavy weapon leaving you with 7 bolters) shooting at the same target (assuming toughness 4 and they all get a 3+ armor save). Same deal with bolt pistols.

 

The Stormraven will probably blast onto the board, yes. Chances are, by the time it gets on the board, the big targets will be down already, or you'll have to spend a turn shooting with the SR heavy weapons. Next turn, the SR has to move, which will probably put it that much closer to enemy units. You also realize the SR has Power of the Machine Spirit? You can still shoot the heavy weapons at tanks/heavy armor, and the hurricane bolters at infantry. I've shredded more than a few units using the hurricane bolters.

 

Or the SR blasts onto the table and moves way up the board to deliver it's cargo. As the cargo can't do much else (depending on how it was delivered. Assault vehicle for the win!), it's nice to be able to blast away at any threats to that squad so it doesn't get tied up in a close combat on my opponent's next turn.

 

The Stormraven is an expensive piece of equipment. Due to the lack of anti-aircraft weapons in the game, a flyer is an excellent choice, especially one that is AV12 all around and ignores the melta rule. It has a lot of survivability and will probably last the entire game unless your opponent has some dedicated AAA or another flyer. As you are investing a lot of points into something that is central to your strategy, why wouldn't you spend the extra 30 points to gain the equivalent firepower of a tactical squad?

 

It's been my playing experience to always take the hurricane bolter upgrade with my Stormravens. Your mileage may very. :)

 

As for my typical loadout: TLAC, Typhoon ML, and hurricane bolters. This has been the most effective load out for me and the armies I face in my local play area. TLAC is just awesome all around, and two krack S8 AP3 missiles can reach out and touch a lot of stuff, and you'll always have those unlike the 4 shot Bloodstrike missiles. This gives you great anti-armor firepower, but the hurrican bolters become almost useless. Facing a hoard? Switch to Frag missiles. Now you'll have the TLAC, 2 Frag Missiles, and the hurricane bolters. Now you'll have a very effective anti-hoard vehicle, and still have the Bloodstrike missiles to shoot at a high armor target.

 

It seems to me that people try to specialize the Stormraven, making it into a dedicated anti-tank platform or just a transport. I really feel like that's the wrong way to go with these guys. Use it as a transport, but don't forget that it has a lot of guns. Using it as just a weapons platform takes away the excellent transport capabilities. It's unfortunate how expensive it is, and at the lower points values, you have to craft your list around using the Stormraven. At higher points values, it really starts to shine as it becomes a part of the overall strategy of the list, but not the key part.

 

In a way, if you treat it like a Land Raider, you won't be far off on the lists that can use it and how to use it.

[Darklighter]

Use them with TLMM/TLAC and hurricane bolters, and they fit everywhere.

 

This is my preferred Raven build. They do kill everything with ease!

[Deschenus Maximus]

I can never seem to find the 30 pts necessary for the bolters myself. So TLMM/TLAssC it is for me. That multimelta makes the Raven the bully of the sky - nothing else in the game is as good at nuking other flyers.

[Black Memories]

Hurricane bolters are exceptionally powerful on a stormraven. My army is usually in need of both fast heavy AT and infantry culling. My TLLC/TLMM/Hurricane bolters raven does these jobs perfectly with the ability to hit multiple target types. Its an MC killer, a trooper killer, a flier killer, and a tank killer. I've run it to fantastic results nearly every single game I've played. Once you pony up the 30 points for the bolters you begin to realize how good they are. being able to move up to 36 inches puts you in rapid fire range on nearly everything you need to fire on as well. The 360 degree turret means i can still snipe out some light tanks or something with the TLLC while i mow through infantry. By far the most improved/impressive unit in the codex. I don't even put infantry or dreads in mine anymore, I just run them with the bolters as a gunship, something I would NEVER do in 5th.

[SamaNagol]

Take 2 of them. 460pts well spent.

[Sokhar]

I don't even put infantry or dreads in mine anymore, I just run them with the bolters as a gunship, something I would NEVER do in 5th.

 

Biggest change from 6th for them right there. The ability to move and fire 4 (plus 1) weapons and the big bump in durability meant the Raven went from a kamikazee assault vehicle, to a flyer that's capable of transporting but also perfectly fits the gunship role. I couldn't justify taking them in 5th, because Auto-Las Preds were worlds better in terms of fire support and I just didn't need the suicidal transport. Now Preds have lost some of their luster, and the Raven ends up being both more durable as well as better armed--and now actually worth its significantly higher point cost.

 

Raven is probably the most improved unit in the codex in the transition from 5th to 6th, with Mephiston and Attack Bikes a bit further behind.

[Black Memories]

I'd give tactical squads a close runner to the ravens, but yeah I think the raven is by far the best new unit. I feel like other units got a sort of upgrade (death company, sanguinary guard) but still have inherent drawbacks. Sternguard, tacticals, ravens, and attack bikes are all significantly better than in 5th. I don't know that I agree on mephiston fully because he was a monster and a half in 5th, but Challenges make him a lot sturdier. I will say challenges can bog him down too though. Nothing like a 1w necron lord ever living his way back into combat to protect a huge squad of warriors over....and over.....and over....

[DominicJ]

Ok, rephrase the question.

 

What best supports two ravens?

 

 

Assault troops?

Bikes?

Massed Infantry?

Tanks?

Rhino Rush?

 

Ect.

It always "felt" to me that bikes and assault troops felt best, but they dont really seem to on the board.

 

Whereas an infantry spam list could probably use the extra mobility they provide

[The Milkman Of Baal]

I always kinda think that its the other way round like, but i noramlly use my SR with an outflanking Baal and DS assultmarines/Drop pod dead to put a bit of pressure on the gunline. But i like the idea of a rhino section...

[Sokhar]

Black Memories--Yeah, challenges can cut both ways for Mephiston. Can make it easier for him to stay locked in combat through your opponent's turn, but can bog him down indefinitely at times. I was thinking more in terms of A) Dangerous Terrain tests are now a non-factor ;) None of his psychic powers can be hooded anymore C) Increased charge range D) Feel No Pain against Perils of the Warp E) Even easier time smashing apart vehicles, and I'm probably forgetting a few. If he was a monster and a half in 5th, he's like 2.5 monsters now. ;)

 

I really don't buy the Tactical Squads train that a lot of BA players seem to be jumping on. Not that they're not better, they are, I just don't see why you play Blood Angels and want to base your army around Tactical Marines. Other codexes work that angle better, so while they're improved, I still don't find them enticing. I'll admit to only rarely using them in 5th, and not having used them in 6th yet though.

 

Dominic--I don't think any particular unit really ideally supports the Ravens, I think its more of a playstyle. Given that they're flyers, you don't need the same level of AV saturation that you'd need in a list running Auto-Las Predators, for instance. I think just an aggressive list that'll push into midfield and advance towards the enemy and dictate enemy shooting really benefits the Ravens. You don't want to be be sitting still and shooting it out, other codexes do that better. But if you've got a solid push going when the Ravens arrive, the enemy either has to deal with the gunships, or the wave headed for his lines. Assault Squads, Attack Bikes, Mephiston, and mechanized infantry (I think allied Grey Hunters are the best option for this) all work nicely and will punish your opponent if they focus too much on the birds.

[liberate_tutame]

Hey Sokhar, could you point me to the justification for D) again? Perils says no save may be taken against it, so how come you can FnP it?

[Brother Maikel]

Feel No Pain is specifically called out in the BRB as not being a save. You can't "save" a wound from Perils, but you can ignore it :lol:

 

It's just a flesh wound...

[Darklighter]

Hey Sokhar, could you point me to the justification for D) again? Perils says no save may be taken against it, so how come you can FnP it?

 

What Brother Maikel said. :D

[mmaarrkk]

FNP is not a save, its a feel no pain roll. Check the BA FAQ it states there you can take FNP against perils, only save we can get against it.

 

For my storm raven, I tried TL LC TL MM at a toruny expecting there to be more flyers then there was, but you just dont get enough dice against ground targets, I was also running a TL HB TL AC hurricane bolters loadout and that really is the better one to go for, took down a storm talon in one round in one game, chewed through orks like no tomorrow (19 in two turns from one squad) and had a go at light armour, I will be trying out tl ac hurricane bolters and typhoon this weekend as i am against FMC;s

[John Rainbow]

I agree, the TLMM and TLAC is the best load-out for the Raven. You get a decent rate of fire at decent strength and can engage both ground/air targets. I don't think the bolters do that much for BA though. They're much better when combined with psybolt ammo. I'd pass on the bolters with BA.

[liberate_tutame]

That's great guys, thanks for the FnP clarification, one guy I was playing against was so sure damn sure I let just let it slide. :rolleyes:

[Sokhar]

I agree, the TLMM and TLAC is the best load-out for the Raven. You get a decent rate of fire at decent strength and can engage both ground/air targets. I don't think the bolters do that much for BA though. They're much better when combined with psybolt ammo. I'd pass on the bolters with BA.

 

Meh, it brings extra anti-infantry firepower that can often be lacking in Blood Angels lists. Obviously GK Ravens are better because of psybolts, but its not like I was passing on Assault Cannons before just because GK ones are better at strength 7. The GK Raven is much more effective at anti-infantry duties, whereas our's is vastly superior at anti-vehicle duties because we've got Real Men Missiles, not Pansy Anti-Psyker Waterballoons. :rolleyes:

[Deschenus Maximus]

Meh, it brings extra anti-infantry firepower that can often be lacking in Blood Angels lists.

 

BA lacking anti-infantry? Say what?

[Sokhar]

Meh, it brings extra anti-infantry firepower that can often be lacking in Blood Angels lists.

 

BA lacking anti-infantry? Say what?

 

Firepower being the keyword. Aside from a Baal Predator or two, what units do you see regularly showing up in competitive lists that bring a healthy volume of anti-infantry shooting? The traditional BA way to deal with light infantry is to assault and shred them, though the addition of overwatch and the loss of our initiative bump on the charge diminished this somewhat. So yes, I think that many BA lists were lacking tools to deal with hordes outside of the assault phase. Feel free to argue otherwise.

[Drunken Angel]

I will go as far to say that a Raven plus hurricane bolters is a game changer.

 

I know its a 230 point model but TLAC TLMM and TL hurricane bolters is very powerfull, over 1500 points I will always take 2 of them.

The 2 ravens are not super expensive because I reduce my troops cost for one unit.

Scouts with sniper rifles and camo cloaks = 90 points + aegis defence line with coms relay 70 points. Thats a 160 point resilient (aegis plus stealth plus go to ground is a 2+ save) objective sitter with its own cover and grants re-rolls on the ravens turn 2 entry to play.

 

The number of times the HB's have raked over a troop is too usefull not to take now in 6th. Every time the raven has entered play for me it has smoked a major piece of machinery whether defilers, bloodletters, jumpy DP's, leman or manticore anythings. The threat of the ravens does dictate the deployment of my opponents army the ravens change his game.

[Bartali]

Meh, it brings extra anti-infantry firepower that can often be lacking in Blood Angels lists.

 

BA lacking anti-infantry? Say what?

 

Firepower being the keyword. Aside from a Baal Predator or two, what units do you see regularly showing up in competitive lists that bring a healthy volume of anti-infantry shooting? The traditional BA way to deal with light infantry is to assault and shred them, though the addition of overwatch and the loss of our initiative bump on the charge diminished this somewhat. So yes, I think that many BA lists were lacking tools to deal with hordes outside of the assault phase. Feel free to argue otherwise.

 

If you don't think ASM are that great anymore, then your taking Tacticals which have Bolters. On the other hand if you think ASM are still fine vs Light Infantry (as I do), then you've got all those Bolt Pistols/Flamers/CC Attacks.

 

Unless you're going MSU Las/Plas Razor ASM, anti light infantry is not something you should be worried about with BA. I wouldn't mind if the sponsons were cheaper, but at 30pts with Ravens coming in from Reserves and forced movement - no thanks.