Where do Ravens "fit"

[Sokhar]

Scouts with sniper rifles and camo cloaks = 90 points + aegis defence line with coms relay 70 points. Thats a 160 point resilient (aegis plus stealth plus go to ground is a 2+ save) objective sitter with its own cover and grants re-rolls on the ravens turn 2 entry to play.

You know all units that go to ground behind an Aegis Line get a 2+ cover save naturally, so that you don't need to buy them Camo Cloaks for Stealth, yes? Granted it means they'd have 3+ cover just standing still, but not sure its really worth the points in that scenario. Just have the scouts hit the deck and hope its not a Helldrake shooting at them.

 

Bartali--My point was referring entirely to shooting. I still think Assault Marines can handle light infantry duty in close combat, but I don't think they're as effective as they used to be. And I'm not counting a bolt pistol softening as true anti-infantry shooting. Tactical Marines, sure, that's anti-infantry. But I don't really see the upside in running Tac Squads in Blood Angels, especially not as a significant part of your force. Regular Codex Marines are more versatile with Combat Tactics, Grey Hunters are cheaper and much punchier than any kind of Tactical Marine, and Strike Squads have greater mobility and power weapons. Blood Angels Tactical Marines are (in my opinion) basically inferior to every other Marine codex's equivalent.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Our Tacs have an ace up their sleave: access to Fast plasmabacks. The unit itself might be inferior to its equivalents in other codexes, but squad + transport does a lot to rectify the inequality.

[SamaNagol]

Is the fast Plasmaback worth paying 90 pts for with a pretty lacklustre unit inside?

[Deschenus Maximus]

Why do you say its lacklustre?

[Tamwulf]

Is the fast Plasmaback worth paying 90 pts for with a pretty lacklustre unit inside?

Not understanding the lackluster reference myself. You can have a five man Honor Guard, Tactical, Death Company, Assault, Sternguard, Vanguard, and Devastator squad riding around in that Razorback. Add a Sanguinary Priest, and you have a nice little unit.

 

SamaNagol might be referring to the ease at which transport vehicles can be destroyed now in 6th Edition. These days, it seems more risky to use transports then to not use them. Units inside a transport that gets blown up are sometimes trapped for multiple turns thanks to pinning and difficult terrain. This often negates the advantage of getting your troops somewhere fast. However, 5 out of the 6 missions in the rulebook have objectives, and all six have Linebreaker. This means you have to be able to get your scoring units around on the table.

 

There could be some success in fielding so much armor (2-4 Rhinos, 2-4 Razorbacks, a Baal Pred, and a Storm Raven in reserve) that your opponent becomes saturated with too many targets and not enough fire power to deal with it. I haven't tried this approach yet myself, as I'm having too much fun playing regular Space Marines and using the most excellent Storm Talon (two in every list).

[Sokhar]

Our Tacs have an ace up their sleave: access to Fast plasmabacks. The unit itself might be inferior to its equivalents in other codexes, but squad + transport does a lot to rectify the inequality.

 

Plasmabacks are nifty, but going with Tactical Squads inside one as opposed to Assault Marines and taking the discount seems like a poor idea to me.

 

I don't think Sama was referring to the Razorback as the lackluster unit, I believe he was referring to the half a Tactical Squad that will ride inside.

[DominicJ]

I agree that tactical squads are a terrible thing to put in a razor.

 

If I were doing Mech, I would seriously be looking at 6 6 man assault squads with a melta gun in a bolter back.

Its about 900pts.

 

Add 3 Baals and 3 Preds, another 700pts, and you have 12 tanks, 3 TLLC, 3 TLAC, 6 TLHB and 6 Melta guns.

 

 

Its BRUTAL target saturation. Only the TLLC isnt a versatile platform, the assault squads in bolter backs can pop tanks with the melta or light infantry, the Baals can mow down infantry or pop tanks (TLACs are remarkably efficient at stripping hull points from AV14).

 

Just writing that down has convinced me :tu:

[Deschenus Maximus]

Plasmabacks are nifty, but going with Tactical Squads inside one as opposed to Assault Marines and taking the discount seems like a poor idea to me.

 

I agree that tactical squads are a terrible thing to put in a razor.

 

I don't understand your point of view, gentlemen. I would have been in total agreement in the days of 5th ed, but with the change to rapid fire weapons and hull points, a simple combat squad with either just a plasma gun or a combi-melta/meltagun duo is very nice indeed.

 

 

If I were doing Mech, I would seriously be looking at 6 6 man assault squads with a melta gun in a bolter back.

Its about 900pts.

 

Add 3 Baals and 3 Preds, another 700pts, and you have 12 tanks, 3 TLLC, 3 TLAC, 6 TLHB and 6 Melta guns.

 

 

Its BRUTAL target saturation. Only the TLLC isnt a versatile platform, the assault squads in bolter backs can pop tanks with the melta or light infantry, the Baals can mow down infantry or pop tanks (TLACs are remarkably efficient at stripping hull points from AV14).

 

Just writing that down has convinced me :)

 

I would rethink bolterbacks. Twin heavy flamers is just so much scarier, and sinergises better with your ASM. Also, TLLC pred is a waste. Autolas or bust, mesays.

[Morticon]

Plasmabacks are nifty, but going with Tactical Squads inside one as opposed to Assault Marines and taking the discount seems like a poor idea to me.

 

I agree that tactical squads are a terrible thing to put in a razor.

 

I don't understand your point of view, gentlemen. I would have been in total agreement in the days of 5th ed, but with the change to rapid fire weapons and hull points, a simple combat squad with either just a plasma gun or a combi-melta/meltagun duo is very nice indeed.

 

 

 

Lets put it this way, would you pay 35 points for a 5 man squad to get 4 more S4 bolter shots at 12" AND 4 less attacks in combat?

 

Dunno dude. Assault marines in a razor is a much more efficient way to go about things. The only thing I would argue for is having a full 10 mans squad, combat the lascannon and then put the others in the razor. But, you can get 10 scouts and a 5man RAS/Razor squad for the same cost as that. Doesnt seem to work out well in my mind.

What do you see is the big benefit? Because surely 35points for 4x S4 shots cant be it.

[DominicJ]

***Note, this is all purely theoretical, I havent even tested this with paper units, let alone in an actual game***

 

I don't understand your point of view, gentlemen. I would have been in total agreement in the days of 5th ed, but with the change to rapid fire weapons and hull points, a simple combat squad with either just a plasma gun or a combi-melta/meltagun duo is very nice indeed.

 

The choices are

 

Full tactical squad, combat squaded

With Melta/Rocket and BolterBack for 235

 

Or 6 Man assault squad

With Melta and Bolterback for 148

 

87 pts for four marines and a rocket?

Thats quite a lot.

Maybe bolters are a bit better than chainswords.

Say 10pts for the rocket, that leaves 77pts for four marines, 19pts each, however they will be attached to a rocket, so will be ablative wounds 90% of the time.

As will the bolt guns / bolt pistols if they are sent tank popping with melta.

 

I just prefer the cheaper option

 

Dont get me wrong, ten tacticals in a Rhino with a flamer is fierce.

As fierce as ten assault marines with two flamers?

Very situational.

 

And I think it gets better for the assault marines the further you push it, those 87 pts are 522 pts if you do it 6 times, enough for three baals.

 

I would rethink bolterbacks. Twin heavy flamers is just so much scarier, and sinergises better with your ASM. Also, TLLC pred is a waste. Autolas or bust, mesays.

 

Perhaps, it was purely guesswork on my part, cheap was the main driver, IE no assbacks.

I defer to your wisdom on the Predator. I think three AC/LC/LC would fit in the above list, likely to more effect.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Lets put it this way, would you pay 35 points for a 5 man squad to get 4 more S4 bolter shots at 12" AND 4 less attacks in combat?

 

Dunno dude. Assault marines in a razor is a much more efficient way to go about things. The only thing I would argue for is having a full 10 mans squad, combat the lascannon and then put the others in the razor.

 

Well of course, that is the way you would use them. As you say, 35 pts for a couple of bolters would be a tad silly expensive.

 

But, you can get 10 scouts and a 5man RAS/Razor squad for the same cost as that. Doesnt seem to work out well in my mind.

What do you see is the big benefit? Because surely 35points for 4x S4 shots cant be it.

 

10 naked scouts + 5 naked ASM + Plasmaback is 35 points over 10 Tacticals with a Flamer, a Missile Launcher and a Plasmaback. Give the scouts a missile and the ASM a flamer and the difference climbs to 50 pts. That is not insignificant.

 

If you cut it down to 5 Scouts w/ rocket and 5 ASM with flamer in a plasmaback vs the aforementioned Tac squad, the points advantage swings back in favor of the ASM + scouts by 15 pts. That said, the 15 pts buy you BS 4 on the backfielders, but more importantly, a 3+ save. This means your guys stop being heavy bolter/heavy flamer bait, which can be decisive.

 

But forget all that, because flamer/missile is not how I run my Tacs. Combi-melta, melta, Plasma Cannon, Plasmaback. You can't replicate that with scouts and ASM.

 

The choices are

 

Full tactical squad, combat squaded

With Melta/Rocket and BolterBack for 235

 

Or 6 Man assault squad

With Melta and Bolterback for 148

 

87 pts for four marines and a rocket?

Thats quite a lot.

Maybe bolters are a bit better than chainswords.

Say 10pts for the rocket, that leaves 77pts for four marines, 19pts each, however they will be attached to a rocket, so will be ablative wounds 90% of the time.

As will the bolt guns / bolt pistols if they are sent tank popping with melta.

 

I just prefer the cheaper option

 

Dont get me wrong, ten tacticals in a Rhino with a flamer is fierce.

As fierce as ten assault marines with two flamers?

Very situational.

 

And I think it gets better for the assault marines the further you push it, those 87 pts are 522 pts if you do it 6 times, enough for three baals.

 

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Say you wanted 6 scoring Troops, I would do 2 10 man Tacs + 2 ASM rather than 6 ASM. You have 2 objective babysitting squads and 4 objective grabbers rather than having just objective grabbers.

[Sokhar]

I don't understand your point of view, gentlemen. I would have been in total agreement in the days of 5th ed, but with the change to rapid fire weapons and hull points, a simple combat squad with either just a plasma gun or a combi-melta/meltagun duo is very nice indeed.

 

I don't have a problem with bolters and Tactical Squad-esque units, I agree with you that they've gotten a leg up in 6th ed. My issue lies in Blood Angels Tactical Squads. Two issues here, one being that BA don't have any special rules or options to really make them better than alternatives, and two is the nature of BA vehicles. A Tactical Squad in a Rhino is a useful unit, but Blood Angels have to pay the Fast vehicle tax, and thus the price of the unit is higher. Codex Marines have Combat Tactics, which is an extremely useful special rule, particularly in 6th. Space Wolves are cheaper, better in assault, and can have a 2nd special weapon. Grey Knights have even better mobile firepower, and while having fewer attacks than Grey Hunters, they get power weapons. Blood Angels Tactical Marines....get Red Thirst. :D

 

I do agree with you that the Heavy Flamer Razor option is much better than the 'bolter back though.

 

Blood Angels Tactical Squad--10 Marines, Plasmagun, Missile Launcher 180

Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Flamers 55

Total: 225

 

Grey Knight Strike Squad--10 Knights, 2 Psycannons 220

Rhino 40 / Razorback with Heavy Bolter and Psybolts 50

Total: 260 / 270

 

Grey Hunter Pack--10 Hunters, 2 Plasmaguns 160

Rhino: 35

Total: 195

 

My point is if you want to bring "Tactical Marines" (or some variant thereof), bring them in the Allies slot, not as actual BA Tacs. The other codexes just do them better.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Sohkar: If you want to bring a Rhino for your Tacs, then yes, SM do it better. But BA do Razors much better, and Tacs do work work well with Razors.

 

You could actually combine both SM and BA Tacs if you wanted:

 

10 SM Tactical Marines - Combi-melta, meltagun, multimelta, Rhino

10 SM Tactical Marines - Combi-melta, meltagun, multimelta, Rhino

10 BA Tactical Marines - Flamer, Plasma Cannon, Plasmaback

10 BA Tactical Marines - Flamer, Plasma Cannon, Plasmaback

 

Solid scoring core for a 2 k list.

[Sokhar]

I largely agree, though I take the assertion to the next step:

If you want to run "Tacs" in Rhinos, go out of codex. If you want Razorbacks, use Assault Squads. I just don't see the Tactical Squad being worth all the additional points spent in that scenario. But that's just me. YMMV.

[Deschenus Maximus]

The reason Tacs with Razors are useful is that they provide you with a good backfielder. You don't need more than 2, though.

 

So a "pure BA" core for 2k list could look like this:

 

Librarian - Shield, Fear

 

2 Sang Priests - Combi-meltas

 

10 Tacticals - Combi-melta, meltagun, plasmacannon, plasmaback

10 Tacticals - Combi-melta, meltagun, plasmacannon, plasmaback

5 ASM - melta, plasmaback

5 ASM - melta, plasmaback

5 ASM - flamer, plasmaback

5 ASM - flamer, plasmaback