Necris Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Ok so me and a few friends have been talking over the past weeks every since Betrayal was announced over the conspiracies surrounding the Heresy much of this may have been covered already but I just wanted to get a wider view on my thoughts 1. The emperor is the most powerful psyker known to mankind, his abilities have him noticed by the cabal one of their number even considers him worthy of a place in their number if it wasn't for his warmongering ways, if he's so powerful how was it that he didn't see the heresy happening we know he had the power of foresight he passes this gift onto Sangy after all So our theory was Big E actually saw the Heresy unfold in all it's glory much like the cabal had and he knew who to push and when to do it so Slapping Logar and the Word Bearers for their worship of him as a god was perfectly timed to set the full scale of things into motion Making Horus Warmaster was planned out as he knew that Lorgar would fall to chaos and would in turn corrupt Horus as the Warmaster and the others leading to the Massacres of Istvaan III and V He forbids the use of librarians at Nikea because he knows that they could turn the tide of any single battle beyond his control So when the heresy kick starts the reason why big e does nothing is because everything is going as planned The only chink in the plan is Magnus when he breaks through the wards he undoes Big E's workings for the end of the heresy in which Magnus has the key role of replacing him in the Golden Throne, at the time of the Siege of Terra Big has in place enough of what he had done so as to allow Magnus to continue his work and replace him he knows that for chaos to be truly defeated he has to die and allow horus to carry out his purge, so he goes to horus' flag ship to die. This is where things go all pear shaped in the grand plans in his final conflict he sees that horus would not follow the path as foreseen but instead follow another path and of forced to destroy him thus by dooming the universe to endless war 2. Who is Malcador? He is ancient and beyond the life expectancy of a normal human even a psyker He was with the Emperor during the conquest of terra He is a powerful psyker in his own right He takes a blow from a Primach and not only survives but picks himself up dusts himself off and continues as though nothing happened Theory Malcador is an aspect of the Emperor himself a detached fraction of his soul given human form Or the more whacky idea Malcador is the true emperor, and Big E is the first of the Primachs the ultimate primach as it were created by maclador to fulfil a role he could never do himself, to be the shining beacon of hope for mankind that everyone expects 3. Question time Would Lorgar have had the balls and influence to carry out the Heresy had Horus fallen at Davin? Just a what if we hammered around, would he try and go it alone leading the traitors, would they even follow him, who would he turn his attention to after Horus had died? 4. Another Question time How did Russ get away with breaking the Decree of Nikea Russ a known and vocal hater of psykers surrounds himself with psykers, oh sorry Seers he has one accompany him to Prospero and they are aware of their nature as is seen in Fear to Tread where the space wolves are actively hiding the fact that their seer is a psyker, So how did he get away with that or was he simply naive enough to think that his seers were not psykers and they did not exhibit Psychic powers but some other mystical powers(Which would be worse wouldn't it)? Or did he just not care? Anyway we have others but I don't think they're worth putting up just yet Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Malcador is the true emperor, and Big E is the first of the Primachs the ultimate primach as it were created by maclador to fulfil a role he could never do himself, to be the shining beacon of hope for mankind that everyone expects Good idea... I Like it... In this way every Chaos Marine already said the truth... Death to the False Emperor! Long live to Malcador! Or Malcador is a secret follower of Tzeenth... He whispered in the ears of the Emperor the good choices... Hey Emperor, Lorgar need a show of your power... I suggest to destroy that city and be escorted by those beatiful blue marines... Hey Emperor, it's time to leave the Crusade to Horus... Hey Emperor, send the Space Wolves to destroy the Thousand Sons, whose primarch, Magnus, interrupted you before reaching the ultimate world record on Diablo III and you needed to restart the game because his psychic/electric arrival erased every previous savegame... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3224776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 1) if the Emp was trying to destroy chaos, pretty much the only way to do that is to wipe out all chaos worshippers, and the only sure way of doing that is to allow chaos to win- why didn't the Emp thus embrace chaos and corrupt his sons, thus leading to an early chaos victory, letting them fight amongst themselves and wipe each other out. 2) malcador is unlikely to be the true Emp, as he is burnt out by the golden throne. He's more likely to be a super-powered Perpetual. 3) Perhaps, it would depend in his charisma, the reason why Horus was chosen is because of his skill in command, and his perceived superiority to the rest of the primarchs when the Emp makes him warmaster. 4) I think that's a dangerous question to ask, there's a whole thread filled with back and forth about whether the Rune Priests are breaking the decree. Depends on if you view it as a ban on the use of ALL psychic powers, or a ban on the Librarius departments set up by the Thousand Sons, which the Rune Priests were not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3225343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 If Emperor is allknowing (which he isn't) and can forsee the Heresy up to the point of knowing which Primarch will fall, why didn't he see Magnus coming? If he didn't, then why would he know everything else that falls in with your theory? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3225367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Malcador is the true emperor, and Big E is the first of the Primachs the ultimate primach as it were created by maclador to fulfil a role he could never do himself, to be the shining beacon of hope for mankind that everyone expects Funnily enough i have thought that more than a few times, especially as Dan Abnett has hinted at something behind the Emperors "visage" and hints at a small old man. Saying that though, the Emperor has on numourous occassions actually said that Malcador is "kin" - Who is to say that when the Emperor was born, he wasn't a twin? (obviously i dont mean identical) Both with towering intelligence and pysker ablities, one just was born in "normal" form and the other was born as we see in the artwork, massive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3225426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Well, taking the Malcador is a Perpetual one step further - perhaps he's a son of the Emperor? Like what the old fluff calls Sensei? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3225439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Well, taking the Malcador is a Perpetual one step further - perhaps he's a son of the Emperor? Like what the old fluff calls Sensei? This would be my preffered theory. It would make a lot of sense given the closenessof the two of them. Also, I liked the idea posted a while ago that the Emp and Malcador have been various famous figures throughout the earths history. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3225609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Also, I liked the idea posted a while ago that the Emp and Malcador have been various famous figures throughout the earths history. I think thats already fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3225938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodshipalbion Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I still like the idea that malcador is narthan dume Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3225990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodshipalbion Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I still like the idea that malcador is narthan dume Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3225991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodshipalbion Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I still like the idea that malcador is narthan dume Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3225992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I doubt the Malcador-Emperor theory. The Emperor could sit on the Throne all day and not break a sweat. Malcador got deep-fried to a crisp in a few hours. I see him being a blood brother of the Emperor (or some other relation) as a more likely scenario. The older fluff stated that the Emperor could see most, if not all, of the events up to the later stages of the Crusade and into the Heresy, from where his sight was not able to determine anything. Newer fluff puts more limits on his foresight, namely in Outcast Dead his stating that "you can be all powerful or all knowing, but not both" and with the hints that the Dark Gods were clouding his sight. I think it would be fair to say that he did not see the Heresy happening, or at least not happening the way it did. Apparently 'elemental' psykers that 'draw their power from their respective worlds' (however screwed up that line of reasoning may be) is different than being a psyker. How, I have no freaking clue, and it makes zero sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3225999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I Apparently WOLF psykers that 'draw their power from their respective WOLVES is different than being a MALEFICARIUM TAINTED NON WOLF psyker. Make sense now? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 WET LEOPARD GROWL FTW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I doubt the Malcador-Emperor theory. The Emperor could sit on the Throne all day and not break a sweat. Malcador got deep-fried to a crisp in a few hours. I see him being a blood brother of the Emperor (or some other relation) as a more likely scenario.The older fluff stated that the Emperor could see most, if not all, of the events up to the later stages of the Crusade and into the Heresy, from where his sight was not able to determine anything. Newer fluff puts more limits on his foresight, namely in Outcast Dead his stating that "you can be all powerful or all knowing, but not both" and with the hints that the Dark Gods were clouding his sight. I think it would be fair to say that he did not see the Heresy happening, or at least not happening the way it did. Apparently 'elemental' psykers that 'draw their power from their respective worlds' (however screwed up that line of reasoning may be) is different than being a psyker. How, I have no freaking clue, and it makes zero sense. I'd rather be inclined to believe that Malcador is a shard of the Emperor. I rather weak shard(relatively speaking) but a shard nonetheless. After all, the Emperor was able to use Malcador as a conduit to talk to Corax. don't think any "normal" being is able to do that. Maybe Malcador is the Emperor's willingness to "Do what must be done" regardless of the cost. Such as let the Thunder Warriors butcher their way across Terra. Or try to use Assassins to close out the Heresy before it escalated too far. And such related business, as Malcador does seem to be the... Not sure if "pragmatic" or "ruthless" is a better word. On the topic of elemental psykers, I'm going to leave that alone since using the elements for power is not sorcery, to 40k anything that uses the warp in any way, shape or form, without being a psychic power is sorcery. Heck, even the psychic powers are sorcery depending who you talk to. Technology is excluded from that. Unless its daemon tech. Because, well because then its daemon tech. It couldn't exist without the warp. In the case of Lorgar, no, I don't think so. It's not a matter of whether or not he is capable, it's that at that particular point in time, people were still getting over the whole "religious zeal" thing. He had no sway with anyone. And unlike Horus, he couldn't analyze his brothers and be able to broach the subject of whatever skeletons were in their closet in a way beneficial to the Heresy. No, if Horus had died there, Lorgar most likely would have tried to expand his Legion into being the biggest out there period and then just make his own schism by himself. Actually, that sort of brings up another question. What if Lorgar corrupting Horus wasn't really to corrupt Horus? What if it was to corrupt Abaddon? I mean, think about it. What if the Heresy and the way the Chaos Gods engineered it wasn't just to create a future in which they would win, but to guarantee it by creating a warrior who would lead their mortal forces to victory? I mean think about it, if Horus died, Lorgar might have been able to turn Abaddon and the SoH. But when they fought the Imperium, Abaddon most likely would have been the one to die in Horus' place. What if the way it all played out wasn't just to make the Heresy happen, but to make Abaddon into the person he would be in 40k? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I could see him being a shard, as in some sort of back-up plan in case the Emperor goes down. Or an insurance policy. Elemental psykers still bug me, though. That makes two (or three, depending on your view) 'magical powers' in 40k: enuncia (words that are tied in with the Warp), Warp, and elements. And elements seems really weak to me, like something someone just threw in for kicks before realizing that it was going into written form sanctioned by GW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I think the elements aren't really elements but more to do with the warp being a reflection of reality. It would be entirely plausible that a belief in something could generate a type of wellspring both within the warp and reality of "pure" power. These could be "elements" or foci that can act as a beacon to be drawn from. Problem is, it is still tied to the warp just enuncia is. Heck, even the Astronomicon is connected to the warp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Agreed Kol. Even if the belief in a phenomena or system is strong enough to actually have or create an effect against/for warp powers/entities, it is still warp powers and with all the dangers of such. Wolf Talisman or no, you can still suffer from perils of the Warp or become so much soul-food for 'warp-predators'. To start qualifying things as this type of power or that type of power is just ways of differentiating the ways individuals/societies/insect communes access the Warp; ritual words, psyker talent, arcane gestures, daemon pact/possession, collective consciousness. The root of all the power is the same. Saying it is elemental and believing in it to a point it is tangible and real doesnt make it correct or the truth which is where the Wolves of the Heresy are falling short in the eyes of the readers. Still, having protection is better than none and Russ of Fenris might have understood survival better than anyone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Scorpions Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Wow. Those ideas blew my mind. What if the emperor is actually the head of the cabal? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 The Emperor pretty much knows all galactic history, including the fall of the Eldar. By orchestrating a constant battle for mankind against Chaos, he has allowed the human race to be the best they are in the face of adversity as well as ensuring that they will never fall as the Eldar did once they reached perfection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I've tossed around the idea of Malcador as a shard of the Emperor idea before. It makes sense to me. The idea of the Emperor being able to split off parts of his consciousness and power go back to the Starchild theory from RT days. It is also the explanation for what soul-binding involves. Malcador is clearly not a normal human, even as a powerful psyker. The idea that Malcador is the Emperor's biological son, or a side-product of the process by which the Emperor was created, also makes sense. It is an idea that isn't mutually exclusive with him being a shard of the Emperor either. My thought at the moment is that the Perpetuals ARE the new interpretation of the Sensei - biological offspring of the Emperor. This is the reason for their immortality and their "stealthiness" in the eyes of psykic power. Maybe being Perpetuals also makes them resilient enough to be imbued with a part of the Emperor's will and power without being damaged in the way normal psykers are when Soul-Bound. I could see Malcador being the Emperor's first son, who the Emperor later imbued with a part of his power, because he could foresee how it would be important - at several points in history - to have a puppet/ally to assist his rule and plans. In this scenario, the Emperor's grief when told of Malcador's death still makes sense, even though he'd made Malcador into a mere shard of his own personality. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 My thought at the moment is that the Perpetuals ARE the new interpretation of the Sensei - biological offspring of the Emperor. This is the reason for their immortality and their "stealthiness" in the eyes of psykic power. Maybe being Perpetuals also makes them resilient enough to be imbued with a part of the Emperor's will and power without being damaged in the way normal psykers are when Soul-Bound. I think the Perpetuals are the replacements for the Sensei, but I don't think they are going to be the exact same thing. because if you remember in Legion, John Grammaticus didn't meet the Emperor until he was adult during the Unification Wars and neither knew who the other was but both recognized that they were powerful psykers. That and John Grammaticus was pegged out by Shere and Shere could psychically torture him. Although being resurrected by the Cabal could have screwed with him a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 *snip* I'm inclined to agree with 99% of that, Aegnor. My thoughts exactly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Personally I think the perpetuals are other attempts at escaping from being eaten by demons when humans reincarnate, if the origin of the Emperor is the same (born from the union of a thousand souls from a thousand shamans to not be eaten by demons when they reincarnate) then I'd say that the rest of the perpetuals are 'failed' attempts at doing the same, they can reincarnate (like ollanus) but since they're not a thousand souls into one being they're not powerful or immortal like the Emperor, they're just able to reincarnate (by shining so bright that the demons won't eat their souls right away so they can actually come back).. There was another theory going around this forum (forgot who wrote it) that said that the Emperor allowed the Heresy to unfold the way it did because the end result was the best he could do (he couldn't win against the gods but he managed to tie the 'game'), its an awesome theory I wish I could find it again.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3227996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Personally I think the perpetuals are other attempts at escaping from being eaten by demons when humans reincarnate, if the origin of the Emperor is the same (born from the union of a thousand souls from a thousand shamans to not be eaten by demons when they reincarnate) then I'd say that the rest of the perpetuals are 'failed' attempts at doing the same, they can reincarnate (like ollanus) but since they're not a thousand souls into one being they're not powerful or immortal like the Emperor, they're just able to reincarnate (by shining so bright that the demons won't eat their souls right away so they can actually come back).. Question: Now, I may be remembering this wrong but in the original fluff, didn't all the shamans (the people who had the ability to reincarnate) reincarnate into the Emperor? As far as I recall there wasn't anyone else capable of reincarnating after that with the possible (though not guaranteed) exception being the Emperor. Hence the Star Child thing. B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/#findComment-3228006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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