KarkassBC Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 There was another theory going around this forum (forgot who wrote it) that said that the Emperor allowed the Heresy to unfold the way it did because the end result was the best he could do (he couldn't win against the gods but he managed to tie the 'game'), its an awesome theory I wish I could find it again.. This idea is also in Outcast Dead... where the only possible choice to avoid losing (in a way or another) is to make and endless game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3228017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Yeah, pretty sure that's right. One of the main reasons for them committing suicide was because they were losing that ability, along with other magic stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3228116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 These men, termed 'shamans' by their society, were powerful psykers with great experience of the Warp. Finding their souls - and those of humanity - endangered by the growing perils of the Warp-gods, these psykers decided to pool their power into one human, a being they called 'the New Man'. Already having gained the power to reincarnate themselves (upon death, the shamans' souls would transfer to the Warp, accumulating power enough to reincarnate as human) the shamans entered a suicide-pact. Thousands of them poisoned themselves and sped their souls to the warp at the same time. Presumably pooling their soul-energy and using their reincarnation ability, they brought about the birth of their New Man - the Emperor - one year later. taken from lexicanum, it says thousands of psykers/shamans, not all of them, in truth we know nothing of this perpetuals except that they have mastered reincarnation, their souls are no longer being devoured by demons and as such it could be that they were created doing the same process that created the Emperor but maybe on a lower scale, instead of thousands maybe a dozen..I personally don't like the idea that the Emperor was born as a Primarch looking being, I like to think of him as a guy that looks primordially ordinary (as he was described in Deliverance lost) that either projects a physique worthy of a primarch or has modified himself into such a being, either way I don't think his powers are engraved on his genes but on his soul and as such they cannot be passed down to create 'immortal' progeny, he is immortal because his psyker abilities allowing him to be, not because his body can't age but because he won't let it age.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3228161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Engel Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I like to think of him as a guy that looks primordially ordinary (as he was described in Deliverance lost) I imagine the Emperor looks like a young Liam Neeson with black hair. And talks like him nowadays. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3228175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I like to think of him as a guy that looks primordially ordinary (as he was described in Deliverance lost) I imagine the Emperor looks like a young Liam Neeson with black hair. And talks like him nowadays. Nah, Sean Connery. Or Clint Eastwood. Maybe all three! Throw in John Wayne and it really does make him a god! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3228180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oir Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 The emperor is currently Christopher Lee, inspiring humanity to awesomeness by singing his symphonic metal Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogsam Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 The impression from the Word Bearers book suggests that the Emperor is a reflection of whomever is looking at him. As in - if they see a kindly old man it's because they expect to etc. Anyway all that Cabal stuff is rubbish storytelling. I've actively avoided reading too many of the novels because the IA articles did the job just fine. The Heresy happened because whilst the Emperor was all powerful he didn't bother with his sons properly. Everyone of them rebelled because they felt slighted in some way and it was a psychological reason they betrayed. Angron - Hated the Emperor in the first place. Alpharius - Rebelled after following/being mentored by Horus around for 90% of his crusade. The Emperor never really bothered with him. Mortarian - Rebelled because he was friends with Horus + he never really liked the Emperor in the first place. Saw him as an all powerful tyrant. Night Haunter - Rebelled because he believed it was what was always going to happen. Fulgrim - Some rubbish about demon swords. Petarebro (sp) - Rebelled because the Emperor was using his legion as a garrison and then putting them in increasingly depressing and morale breaking situations. Didn't really like the Emperor or the Imperium after such abuse. Magnus - Russ caved his legion in. Didn't leave him a choice. Nuff said. Lorgar - The Emperor shouted at him and embarrassed him in front of the entire empire. Nuff said. Horus - Was possessed. Could have conceivably rebelled anyway. Basically bad management explains near all of them rebelling anyway. it doesn't matter if you're the most psychic person ever if you can't persuade people to follow you unless you're close by. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 The impression from the Word Bearers book suggests that the Emperor is a reflection of whomever is looking at him. As in - if they see a kindly old man it's because they expect to etc. Anyway all that Cabal stuff is rubbish storytelling. I've actively avoided reading too many of the novels because the IA articles did the job just fine. The Heresy happened because whilst the Emperor was all powerful he didn't bother with his sons properly. Everyone of them rebelled because they felt slighted in some way and it was a psychological reason they betrayed. Angron - Hated the Emperor in the first place. Alpharius - Rebelled after following/being mentored by Horus around for 90% of his crusade. The Emperor never really bothered with him. Mortarian - Rebelled because he was friends with Horus + he never really liked the Emperor in the first place. Saw him as an all powerful tyrant. Night Haunter - Rebelled because he believed it was what was always going to happen. Fulgrim - Some rubbish about demon swords. Petarebro (sp) - Rebelled because the Emperor was using his legion as a garrison and then putting them in increasingly depressing and morale breaking situations. Didn't really like the Emperor or the Imperium after such abuse. Magnus - Russ caved his legion in. Didn't leave him a choice. Nuff said. Lorgar - The Emperor shouted at him and embarrassed him in front of the entire empire. Nuff said. Horus - Was possessed. Could have conceivably rebelled anyway. Basically bad management explains near all of them rebelling anyway. it doesn't matter if you're the most psychic person ever if you can't persuade people to follow you unless you're close by. Maybe you should read a couple more of the novels, most of the reasons for the Primarchs rebelling are a lot more complex than you have them. Also, whats wrong with the cabal storyline? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogsam Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 - Because they had a decent storyline based on solid ideas that they reduced to space magic. Why does Alpharius have to have space psychics tell him to rebel for a convoluted reason when he has a much better standard reason to rebel? It's making it pointlessly complex for the sake of making it complex. The original articles point out that aside from the fanfare of a new primarch the Emperor really did very little towards the Alpha Legion as he was already busy - he palmed it off to Horus. Why wouldn't Alpharius just rebel from the man who put very little effort in when his much more attentive brother asks him to? I've read up to Fulgrim and half of the First Heretic - Fulgrim turned one of my favourite primarchs from interesting to silly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Actually in the case of Night Haunter, he had visions of Nostramo being "pierced by spears of light." He never knew what it was about until he destroyed Nostramo. The reason for why he turned isn't known and most likely never will be. Simply saying "He turned because he always believed it would happen" makes it so boring and silly my big toes look funny. Also, read A Reflection Crack'd. Might change your opinion on The Fulgrim-possession thing. Or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLost Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I've read up to Fulgrim and half of the First Heretic - Fulgrim turned one of my favourite primarchs from interesting to silly Fulgrim is the 5th book in the series and the First Heretic is the 14th, might be worth reading the rest of the series might change prospective on things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Why does Alpharius have to have space psychics tell him to rebel for a convoluted reason when he has a much better standard reason to rebel? It's making it pointlessly complex for the sake of making it complex. As a primary reason for joining Horus' rebellion, I thought Legion did a much better job than the old reason given, which basically was another primarch with family issues - we have plenty of those already, tbh. The introduction of another motive, a deeper motive, one that presented a genuine dilemma, was quite entertaining I thought. Was it convoluted? I didn't think so, at least not unnecessarily so, especially as this was a story about the Alpha Legion. If the story didn't involve some sort of twist or subversion of how we expected things to go, I'd have been disappointed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 But family issues are the best reason for a Primarch to turn Traitor! It's so much better than "Daddy yelled at me so I'm killing the Imperium." Oh wait , that is a family issue. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogsam Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 The Fulgrim possession tbh isn't the fault of the writer. It's cannon so they have to work around it. But with Horus already fighting demons and possession + chaos it's a story already used. There could have been much better reasons to have Fulgrim go traitor than he picks up a sword in a place that is obviously evil. If they cut out the possession thing then the story improves drastically IMO anyway. The idea of fiddling with the gene seed is enough to have it all go wrong. Alpharius never really had daddy issues - more it would make no sense for him to stay loyal if he thought that the war wasn't on chaos's behalf. If it was Horus vs the Emperor then there's no reason for him to side with the Emperor unless he realizes Horus is working with evil which wouldn't necessarily be obvious at the start. It's a personal opinion but when there are too many possessions, random meetings with important characters who have very little to do with the setting etc it just seems like poor storytelling to me. Like when Game of Thrones has everyone and their wolf coming back from the dead or Magical blue imaginary children in Mass Effect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 But family issues are the best reason for a Primarch to turn Traitor! It's so much better than "Daddy yelled at me so I'm killing the Imperium." Oh wait , that is a family issue. :) Sincerely the reasons for Lorgar and Horus were quite different... Lorgar was humiliated in front of his entire Legion and told that every act made was nothing (first the Emperor's Cult)... after he found that Gods existed and His Father knew them but lied about their existence... So he felt betrayed and humiliated... not only one reason but even two to become traitor. And also he sided to the Chaos Gods not to receive personal power but with the idea to give a future to humanity and to avoid destruction... From the First Heretic Humanity will embrace the gods, or humanity will embrace oblivion. We have seen the Imperium burn. We have seen the species brought to extinction. We have seen it happen, as it happened before. On the contrary the reasons for Horus were completely unbelievable... he become traitor because he felt His Father to leave them to continue the Crusade and staying well in the Palace at Terra... or to gave too much power to the Admistratum... (I don't know but after the compliance of every world there is an Imperial Governor in place, why now is different?) A more possible Heresy could be the Emperor going to castigate his First Son, because he created a personal Empire thanks to his position as Warmaster... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Black Library producing bad literature. What are the odds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 But family issues are the best reason for a Primarch to turn Traitor! It's so much better than "Daddy yelled at me so I'm killing the Imperium." Oh wait , that is a family issue. ;) Sincerely the reasons for Lorgar and Horus were quite different... Lorgar was humiliated in front of his entire Legion and told that every act made was nothing (first the Emperor's Cult)... after he found that Gods existed and His Father knew them but lied about their existence... So he felt betrayed and humiliated... not only one reason but even two to become traitor. And also he sided to the Chaos Gods not to receive personal power but with the idea to give a future to humanity and to avoid destruction... From the First Heretic Humanity will embrace the gods, or humanity will embrace oblivion. We have seen the Imperium burn. We have seen the species brought to extinction. We have seen it happen, as it happened before. But see, that's not the same thing. It's more like Lorgar's world came crashing down around him. Sort of like that one scene in the Grey with Liam Neeson where he tells God that if He exists, he should do something and give him a sign. Except in Lorgar's case, the sign was "No. I don't exist. Shut up and do what I have commanded you to do." As a result, Lorgar looked for something to fill the void and he found that something in the Chaos Gods, who welcomed him with open arms. In the case of Horus, most of it came from the fact that he became tainted by Chaos when he was wounded on Davin and part of that taint corrupted his mind so he felt that the burden of carrying Humanity to the future fell solely on him as Warmaster. Then there was probably a line of thought somewhere that went along the lines of "IF I'm already in charge of Humanity, then the Emperor isn't really needed. No reason to keep things that we don't need." It's probably why we see a moment of regret from Horus when he was blasted into oblivion and also why Horus would feel regret and commit mass genocide of his own species. He would see exactly what he carried Humanity to and realize that it was damnation and fix it by destroying Humanity and what had become the sole power base for the Chaos Gods, which would result in their destruction as well. But since he died, it was a greater tragedy because he also realized that there would be no salvation in the future that had been created. At least that's my take on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 What I said it's the reasons for Horus even for a "tainted one" were worse in confront of Lorgar's. Horus couldn't be jealous of himself because He was appointed Warmaster, the highest rank in the Imperium below the Emperor himself. In his position he don't need at all to stage the rebellion... he could have simply waited the end of a long war of attrition in which he eroded the power of the Emperor side and slowly raising his own. What I said is Horus gave the orders to the Legion not the Emperor... blaming of him as a Tyrant and at the same time blaming him to retreat to Terra and not giving directions or orders... those are opposite reasons and cannot be used at the same time. By the way, a so large rebellion like the Horus Heresy is completely unbelievable without the support of the Emperor... no Astartes at any level seeing something strange... every time Horus or a traitor captain spoke to someone and a single word not going outside... and involving also Imperial Guards and Mechanicum Engineers... too many involved to mantain a secret... In Legion the Alpha Legion need to kill every member of the auxiliary fleet to cover only the speaking to Xenos, while Horus could do everything without care. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 The Fulgrim possession tbh isn't the fault of the writer. It's cannon so they have to work around it. But with Horus already fighting demons and possession + chaos it's a story already used. There could have been much better reasons to have Fulgrim go traitor than he picks up a sword in a place that is obviously evil. If they cut out the possession thing then the story improves drastically IMO anyway. The idea of fiddling with the gene seed is enough to have it all go wrong. Alpharius never really had daddy issues - more it would make no sense for him to stay loyal if he thought that the war wasn't on chaos's behalf. If it was Horus vs the Emperor then there's no reason for him to side with the Emperor unless he realizes Horus is working with evil which wouldn't necessarily be obvious at the start. It's a personal opinion but when there are too many possessions, random meetings with important characters who have very little to do with the setting etc it just seems like poor storytelling to me. Like when Game of Thrones has everyone and their wolf coming back from the dead or Magical blue imaginary children in Mass Effect. Like other have said, you need to read A Refection Crack'd, it adds a lot more to the "possession" story. Who does Alpharius truly side with- it can be argued neither the Imperium or Chaos, or the Cabal particularly, but more his own agenda. He's one of those Primarchs you can't really pigeonhole... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 What I said it's the reasons for Horus even for a "tainted one" were worse in confront of Lorgar's. Horus couldn't be jealous of himself because He was appointed Warmaster, the highest rank in the Imperium below the Emperor himself. In his position he don't need at all to stage the rebellion... he could have simply waited the end of a long war of attrition in which he eroded the power of the Emperor side and slowly raising his own. Fair enough. Guess I didn't read enough. My fault. What I said is Horus gave the orders to the Legion not the Emperor... blaming of him as a Tyrant and at the same time blaming him to retreat to Terra and not giving directions or orders... those are opposite reasons and cannot be used at the same time. Well actually you said On the contrary the reasons for Horus were completely unbelievable... he become traitor because he felt His Father to leave them to continue the Crusade and staying well in the Palace at Terra... or to gave too much power to the Admistratum... (I don't know but after the compliance of every world there is an Imperial Governor in place, why now is different?) Not sure if that's the same thing exactly. But the deal with the Administratum is that they were bureaucrats while the Imperial Governors seemed to be Imperial Army Generals who were in left in charge of the planets that they had helped conquered. At least, if what happened in Horus Rising is anything to go by. A more possible Heresy could be the Emperor going to castigate his First Son, because he created a personal Empire thanks to his position as Warmaster...By the way, a so large rebellion like the Horus Heresy is completely unbelievable without the support of the Emperor... no Astartes at any level seeing something strange... every time Horus or a traitor captain spoke to someone and a single word not going outside... and involving also Imperial Guards and Mechanicum Engineers... too many involved to mantain a secret... In Legion the Alpha Legion need to kill every member of the auxiliary fleet to cover only the speaking to Xenos, while Horus could do everything without care. Not exactly, since a Heresy is something that goes against what is already established. It wouldn't exactly be a Heresy if the Emperor was the one who instigated it. It would be more like the "Horus Censure". Also, there were people who saw it, they just died. Example, Istvaan III was the purging of those elements from the four main Legions. KSons didn't have to because they all turned out of survival. Night Lords, well they're sort of self-explanatory. Alpha Legion, which always obeyed the orders of their Primarchs above all anyways didn't have to either. But the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors also had to do their own purges as well. If you remember, the Alpha Legion wasn't attached to the Expedition it wiped out while the Sons of Horus had been traveling with the 66th since time immemorial. There was no loyalty between the Alpha Legion and the 670th Expedition while the Sons of Horus and the 66th had bonds that existed. The 66th had bonds of loyalty to Horus from witnessing his strategies time after time again while the Emperor was turning into a distant memory. And Horus gave the Mechanicum free reign to do whatever they want. They had their own purges to do as well. Some were successful and some were, well everyone remembers Mars don't they? Also, most of the Mechanicum is slave labor that is programmed to obey orders from their superiors. Simply follow the chains of command that are loyal to the Mechanicum, bam, you have traitor gearheads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 In the old fluff, the Children of the Emperor or Sensei kind of acted like Pariah's or Blanks in that the Emperor could not percieve them. So when Grammaticus and the Emperor meet, they wouldnt recognize each other if this was to hold true and it would make sense why Big E would be like "Wow! You have a fine mind! Reminds me of someone..." with a pat on the head while Grammaticus is like "Hmmm, who is that... Intergalactic Space Dad? Intergalactic Space Dad who abandoned my mother and left me to fend for myself through 10 lifetimes of hardship and heartache? Never paid a cent of child support?! Hmm, maybe that isnt my da... Well whatever, I dont like him." edit: Totally would be stoked if Pius or Grammaticus has one of those Ben Kenobi "search your feelings..." kind of scenes :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Also, there were people who saw it, they just died. Example, Istvaan III was the purging of those elements from the four main Legions. KSons didn't have to because they all turned out of survival. Night Lords, well they're sort of self-explanatory. Alpha Legion, which always obeyed the orders of their Primarchs above all anyways didn't have to either. But the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors also had to do their own purges as well. If you remember, the Alpha Legion wasn't attached to the Expedition it wiped out while the Sons of Horus had been traveling with the 66th since time immemorial. There was no loyalty between the Alpha Legion and the 670th Expedition while the Sons of Horus and the 66th had bonds that existed. The 66th had bonds of loyalty to Horus from witnessing his strategies time after time again while the Emperor was turning into a distant memory. And Horus gave the Mechanicum free reign to do whatever they want. They had their own purges to do as well. Some were successful and some were, well everyone remembers Mars don't they? Also, most of the Mechanicum is slave labor that is programmed to obey orders from their superiors. Simply follow the chains of command that are loyal to the Mechanicum, bam, you have traitor gearheads. The Purge (except for the Word Bearers) happened in a very short time... for example during the attack on Istvaan III there is the description of Kill Teams aboard the Loyalist ships (even one on the Eisenstein led by Grulgor) to conquer the ships... but the problem is to turn a marine in a traitor you need to speak to him and convince him... and if he refuse you can kill him to cover the situation... but the problem will be when the number of missing person start to rise too much or the killed person has some friend that start to make some research. ( maybe they used the mind wipe psyker power to erase the memory of a botched attempt to turn traitor a loyal marine and not kill him... moreover you will send him in a suicide mission later) in the Horus Heresy situation seem to be a situation in only black or white... My idea is the Emperor used a mind screening power to confuse every member of the Imperium against the treachery of Horus... like Magnus on the Burning of Prospero. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 True, the Heresy isn't as black and white as it sometimes seems. But it's not that complicated to start a mutiny. All you need is to do something simple like drop a specific word or phrase in a conversation. See how others respond. From there, gather the like-minded individuals around you. Also, if you recall, most(not all, as Tarvitz and Torgaddon showed) of the Marines in the Warrior Lodges of each Legion were Traitors and that is where the gathering of like minds began. Also, IIRC, Garro was put in charge of the Eisenstein because the Death Guard were unsure about his loyalties because he never spoke openly about them. Grulgor was there as a contingency plan. Sometimes all you need for an avalanche is a snowflake. At least that's how I saw it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264658-my-theories-on-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3229431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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