Sgt.Sangha Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Iv read most of the horus heresy novels over the years including the flight of the Eisenstein and i still cannot understand what caused Mortarion to turn traitor. it seems that in tFotE the main elements of the legion have already turned and are feeling out the rest of the legion to see where their loyalties are, has it ever been revealed what caused them to turn from the Emperor? I mean as far as I know the first captain was not truly loyal to begin with and probably was working with Kor Phereon and Erebus of the Word Bearers thus allowing the lodges into the legion to set it up for corruption to spread down stream to the remaining legion. I also am assuming that a majority of the legion was not terran born and thus were more easy to turn from the Imperium and that mainly the Terrans were sent to Istvaan 3 to die. But what about Mortarion himself? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallenArtist Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I think Mortarion and his legion get all nurgley after getting trapped by in a warp storm, while in the storm they start to suffer from the destroyer hive. Mort and his legion can only take the suffering for so long before he begs for papa nurgles help or something like that. When they get out of the storm they are plauge marines that are know in the 40k world. Now i am sure there will be a book talking more about it later or at least i would assume so. Anyways i hope that helps im sure someone will correct me if im wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Mortarion never liked Emperor. Mortarion failed to eliminate his xeno adoptive father, Emperor intervened and killed him and binded Mortarion to his service thanks to early deal. Mort felt slightened and got all butthurt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 The warp storm happened post istvaan  I think that the death guard turned for the same reason that the iron warriors did. They felt overlooked, whilst the loyalist legions got all the glory.  Also, Horus might have hinted that the Emperor is heading in the direction or mortarions adopted father.  Betrayal sheds no light on why they turned.  So we have  Sons of Horus believed they would be cast aside as the Emperor ascended to god hood Word bearers. Found new gods to worship Iron warriors. Didn't like being used and cast aside Death guard worried the emperor would become an uncaring dictator Emperor's children found a new god to follow, without word bearer help Alpha legion no one really knows, was it aliens, the emperor, a giant ruse? World eaters. Angron was bitter and Horus gave him a chance for vengeance Night lords. felt betrayed? Turned because they thought it was fate? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Sincerely the idea of one turning Traitor because he received less glory or his soldiers were used for garrison duties it's very bad from the start. Â In the HH books there isn't a clear reason for the Iron Warriors or the Death Guards. The Death Guards also don't received bad evaluations from their brothers. Until now I don't remember a single line, even in the past, in which someone said "oh the Death Guards made a wrong action... they are bad warriors...". Maybe they don't receive a lot of praise but neither a rebuke. Â For example the Night Lords reasons to become traitors are easier to see... the entire Legion was the probable target for reprimand or worse by the Emperor (many started to say their actions were acts of unwanted violence...) Â Perturabo and his IW are a little more comprehensible... but I don't remember a line in which their Primarch said no to a request before turning completely to the Traitor side (he didn't want to be used in garrison duty and he felt betrayed when Dorn was chosen to send his entire Legion for a garrison duty on Terra... oh my God!) Â Really the books until now covered only the Loyalist side of the Death Guards so it's very hard to know the real reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batweb Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I get the impression from Mortarion's reaction to Nikea and his upbringing on Barabus they are building a scenario where Horus reveals the Emperors "true" plan to rule over mankind with some sort of psychic elite. At this point nobody is painting Horus as the mustache twirling uber villain far from it, he is the Imperiums finest warrior second only to the Emperor himself, who better to save humanity form this corruption!? Why wouldn't Mortarion want to help end this tyrant before it is too late. Â So off to Istavaan to strike the first blow against tyranny and then off to Earth where they are becalmed on route, plague breaks out probably and conveniently killing off the last of the Terran Dusk Raiders before the, also conveniently placed, Word Bearer on board tells Mortarian there is a way to save his troops...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Perturabo's and the Iron Warriors was also about the way they cracked down on their homeworld's rebellion. All the frustration that had been building and the humiliation of having their homeworld rebel meant they slaughtered the population mercilessly. Â When Perturabo realised what he'd done and knowing the big E's stance on the kind of butchery he'd enacted and fearing retribution in the form of the space wolves, he looked at Horus's offer as a way out. Â At least that's how it looked to me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 (he didn't want to be used in garrison duty and he felt betrayed when Dorn was chosen to send his entire Legion for a garrison duty on Terra... oh my God!) Â Well, imagine if you were forced to constantly do a job you hated, because you were the best at it, yet when there's a prize given out for it, your rival gets the prize instead. Perturabo didn't so much hate the garrison duty, he hated the fact that his Legion was constantly overlooked in matters of glory, and when it's finally his chance to shine, he's overlooked yet again. If the Imperial Fists were so good at defensive work, why wasn't their Legion the one manning the garrisons across the galaxy? Â In Perturabos mind, the other Primarchs saw the Iron Warriors as nothing more than a tool to be used for their own glory. They happily make use of the Iron Warriors to persecute their campaigns, then swoop in and claim all the glory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallenArtist Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 In Angel Exterminatus it goes into a little bit why Perturabo turned to Horus. It is a pretty good read in my opinion Perturabo and his legion are written very well and made very interesting! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 In Angel Exterminatus it goes into a little bit why Perturabo turned to Horus. It is a pretty good read in my opinion Perturabo and his legion are written very well and made very interesting! Â Dammit now I'm gonna have to go and get this! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorenzen Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 mortarions reasons will always be somewhat shrouded but personally i think he saw the emperor retrrat from the front lines like his adopted father retreated into the fogsbof barbarus and his resentment towards the big e added tonthis. Â why let somebody who hides behind his legions and armies out of harms way lead when somebody as charismatic as horus who leads from the front offers an alternative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewlay Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 You have to realize, Mortarion was one of those unsociable Primarchs and mainly consoled with Horus. He already had a bad childbirth and never had much of a relationship with the Emperor. Sort of like your best and only friend telling you to believe in him, chances are in the end your going to sway. Added to that Nurgles temptations, Mortarion had less explosive reasons to turn in comparison to Lorger, Angron or Curze. Â Perturabo on the other hand was constantly kicked down, his Legion was scattered around the galaxy on sentry duty, he was rejected to help with the defense of Terra and instead his main rival was chosen, he was well liked by any of the Primarchs (AFAIK) and finally his own planet rebelled against him so he blew it up. Perturabo was pretty much ignored by the Emperor despite having his army and himself in the thick of the dirtiest action. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Mortarion never liked Emperor. Mortarion failed to eliminate his xeno adoptive father, Emperor intervened and killed him and binded Mortarion to his service thanks to early deal. Mort felt slightened and got all butthurt. This. Â Mortarion's loyalty was always to Horus, not The Emperor. Guilliman and Corax were the only ones who saw Mortarion's lack of loyalty long before the Heresy, and they brought it up with The Emperor. The Emperor told them to to worry about it, because loyalty to Horus was defacto loyalty to him, since Horus was his closest son. Guilliman and Corax, AFAIK, weren't really appeased by The Emperor's reassurances, but there wasn't really anything they could do about it. Â Â Too bad The Emperor didn't listen to Guilliman and Corax.... Â Â Â Â In Angel Exterminatus it goes into a little bit why Perturabo turned to Horus. It is a pretty good read in my opinion Perturabo and his legion are written very well and made very interesting! Honestly, that'd be a first. They've always been just the blandest of Legions. Â Historically, they've always been like a poor fan fiction mash up of the Imperial Fists, the Iron Hands, and the absolute most generic Chaos Marines. -The Fists have relentless pride, honor, and paladin-ish nature, that makes them badasses. -The Iron Hands scorn their weak flesh and replace it with bionics, they're sort of tribal, and they have all manner of crazy contraptions. -The Iron Hands are paranoid to the point of not associating with much of the stuff that actually can make generic Chaos interesting. They build and break stuff just like the Imperial Fists. Their paranoia makes them slightly more obsessed with their wargear than an average Marine. And their disposition is generally a butthurt thirst for revenge. They're the pouty tantrum-prone kid whose best friend is his GameBoy. Â I'd be really interested to see if this book can turn the friendless tantrum kids into worthwhile characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Until now every Primarch had a clear reason to betray the Emperor...  Magnus to save his marines from the Big Killer Wolf  Angron and Curze to have a free hand on killing  Lorgar and Perturabo for revenge  Fulgrim and Horus corrupted with some Chaos tainted weapon  Alpharius thinking it was the best answer for a final victory against Chaos  But not for Mortarion... unless after drinking too much poison he already gave his life to a Warp entity for save himself and his marines (like Magnus)... but this is highly unlikely for his hatred of sorcery and psychic powers.  Until now the reasons given would be right to put him in a neutral side... he knew in advance the coming of the Heresy but he preferred to not take side Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Mortarion's psychology is based on his upbringing. Â He was raised by a mutant, possibly daemonic, tyrant on Barbarus. His education was purely military, he was raised to be his "father's" general. He fled this regime and encountered humanity, being used as fodder and fun by the tyranic overlords (including his father). Â Mortarion gradualy earned the trust of Barbarus' humans and defended them, trained them and forged them into an army that could fight and defeat the mutants and their abhorrant armies, leaving only his father. Â Emperor turns up and Mortarion refuses to bow to him and goes off to face his "father". Mortarion fails and the Emperor saves his son and destroys the mutant overlord. Â The Death Guard did not feel oppressed or unappreciated in the same way as the Iron Warriors. In fact the Death guard where PROUD of the way they fought and the challenges they overcame. they drew pride from the fact they could endure anything, even battlefields and situations that other astartes could not. Â Mortarion turned because he saw so much of his previous "father" in the emperor, he saw a tyrant and the wound created by the Emperor doing what mortarion could not, enduring what mortarion could not endure, becane a festering sore that Horus took full advantage of. Mortarion joined the rebellion as an idealist, he believed that Horus could deliver the Imperium from the tyrany of the Emperor. Â Everything changed when the Death Guard fleet became trapped in the warp and ended up prostituting themselves to Nurgle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Mortarion turned because he saw so much of his previous "father" in the emperor, he saw a tyrant and the wound created by the Emperor doing what mortarion could not, enduring what mortarion could not endure, becane a festering sore that Horus took full advantage of. Mortarion joined the rebellion as an idealist, he believed that Horus could deliver the Imperium from the tyrany of the Emperor. Everything changed when the Death Guard fleet became trapped in the warp and ended up prostituting themselves to Nurgle.  It could be possible... but in that way he could start as an idealist but after some time he would notice some strange things... and even a low witted human could start thinking of being tricked...  Horus described himself as the real saviour of the Empire... Please Horus, could you explain me why Emperor'c Children, Night Lords and World Eaters continue to kill unarmed people and destroying everything...  We went to Istvaan III where you Horus set up a trap to destroy loyal soldiers and I gave the orders to my marines to land on a planet and to be killed by a lot of missile and virus bombs...  Ah and we remain struck in the Warp after my First Captain killed my Navigators... and he tell me he has strange sorcery powers to allow him to guide my ships... oh I see now he received a Plague Fleet in reward after my choose of a patron Chaos God...    But Mortarion (as well Magnus) don't think one day to become a traitor of traitors after being tricked... he turned traitor for less why he remained loyal now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Mortarion turned because he saw so much of his previous "father" in the emperor, he saw a tyrant and the wound created by the Emperor doing what mortarion could not, enduring what mortarion could not endure, becane a festering sore that Horus took full advantage of. Mortarion joined the rebellion as an idealist, he believed that Horus could deliver the Imperium from the tyrany of the Emperor. Everything changed when the Death Guard fleet became trapped in the warp and ended up prostituting themselves to Nurgle.  It could be possible... but in that way he could start as an idealist but after some time he would notice some strange things... and even a low witted human could start thinking of being tricked...  Horus described himself as the real saviour of the Empire... Please Horus, could you explain me why Emperor'c Children, Night Lords and World Eaters continue to kill unarmed people and destroying everything...  We went to Istvaan III where you Horus set up a trap to destroy loyal soldiers and I gave the orders to my marines to land on a planet and to be killed by a lot of missile and virus bombs...  Ah and we remain struck in the Warp after my First Captain killed my Navigators... and he tell me he has strange sorcery powers to allow him to guide my ships... oh I see now he received a Plague Fleet in reward after my choose of a patron Chaos God...    But Mortarion (as well Magnus) don't think one day to become a traitor of traitors after being tricked... he turned traitor for less why he remained loyal now.  You are confusing "idealist" with "moralist"  Mortarion's ideals where not pure, where not noble and had nothing to do with chivalry. He was the product of his upbringing, he saw things in terms of black and white he was an idealist in the same way Heinrich Himmler was an idealist, his ideals and principles where firmly rooted and Horus appealed to them.  The closest the Imperium ever had to a "good guy" was Sanguinius and even he had a dark side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 In Perturabos mind, the other Primarchs saw the Iron Warriors as nothing more than a tool to be used for their own glory. They happily make use of the Iron Warriors to persecute their campaigns, then swoop in and claim all the glory. There's rebellion, and then there's Chaos. Of all the Primarchs, Perturabo seemed the least into Chaos per se. Then, all of a sudden and seemingly without the true dedication a Fulgrim or Lorgar bring to the job, he does the sacrifice at the Iron Cage and goes Daemon Prince. It's a mystery. Â As for Mortarion, nursing a centuries-old grudge against the Emperor for saving his sorry butt is so pre-teen. The description of his big enemy on Barbarus is suspiciously Nurglite, so it's not surprising Nurgle targeted Mortarion as a replacement. Whether his "conversion" was as truly unwilling as the circumstances suggest is unclear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 @BCF: thats an extreme view of the Primarchs and early Imperium. Â while they werent the best of beings, as a whole they are beneficial to mankind. Â WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3225955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 There's rebellion, and then there's Chaos. Of all the Primarchs, Perturabo seemed the least into Chaos per se. Then, all of a sudden and seemingly without the true dedication a Fulgrim or Lorgar bring to the job, he does the sacrifice at the Iron Cage and goes Daemon Prince. It's a mystery. I am very interested in this, it is a detail that has been bothering me since I finished Angel Exterminatus. At the end, after Fulgrim betrays Perturabo and he sees (and hates) what Fulgrim's become upon his ascension , I would imagine that the 'trust' he placed in Horus would be severely shaken after seeing Horus's weird daemon form thing (point being, he looks way more evil and whatnot with the weird organic looking terminator armor and stuff), and he wouldn't go turn into a Daemon Prince. The only way I see him turning to Chaos is either if he has some weird psychotic breakdown, reaches Angron's level of rage, or gets wounded by a Chaotic weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3226026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Sangha Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 I think in Perturabos case it has somethign to do with Fulgrims hammer Forgebreaker, I remember in the old fluff there was something written about how that was used to bring him around to chaos. I dont know if thats true, i dont have my books with with me perhaps someone can find something for me? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3226117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I have a different idea on Perturabo... maybe he become Traitor not for the words of Horus but for a link to the Dark Mechanicum... Â maybe the cybernetic replacement sent by the Adeptus Mechanicum contained a strange neural sensor that when connected to the neural cortex of the body slowly give a depressing mood for the marine... Â in this way every event is seen as a failure for the IW except when they use the weapon on other Astartes... and the secret viral program allow the release of joy and pleasure... Â During the Istvaan Massacre the IW took enjoyment in the use of heavy weapons spreading fire and destruction even in the rank of Word Bearer and Night Lords (even a nameless captain of IW when requested to stop the fire responded in a mocking way). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3226318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidice Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Everyone needs to read Angel Exterminatus, it tells the exact reason why Perturabo turned away from the emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3227164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Everyone needs to read Angel Exterminatus, it tells the exact reason why Perturabo turned away from the emperor. Â Well the question isn't why is he turned, but why did he embrace daemonhood? Especially after Angel Exterminatus he sees Fulgrim turning to daemon and despairs for it, seeing how was the concept of perfection so perverted by the chaos. Also Emperor's Children becomes a warband of debauches killing each other in thousands to please their god. Â Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3227299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactire Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Just been re-reading all the HH novels up to FTT and im finding it hard to see the reason for mortarion joining horus against the emp. I presume that the BL will bring out more about the Death Guard which might clear this up but im at a loss to see how ?. Â If we take the rest of the traitor primarchs at least they have some reason for turning: Â Horus - fear of failing (FTT) and corruption by chaos, Fulgrim - corruption by chaos blade and constant need for perfection which can never be attained, Angron - general headcase who i feel never forgave emp and willing to side with whoever let him loose (also butchers nails cant have helped with clear thinking), Twins - cabals vision and also seem to like sneaking around and double-crossing or fooling people (not sure how their storyline will play out), Perturabo - moody with jealousy issues, anger over legions role and crossed the line with olympus action left him with little choice (yet to read ang ext ), Lorgar - let down by emp, zealous need to worship something which lead to corruption by chaos, Curze - bat**** crazy and haunted by visions also after destruction of nostramo like perturabo left with little other choice. Â Â Mortarion however doesnt seem to have any of these issues, legion was respected, had a dislike of any sorcery (as seen at nikea) and seemed to get on with most of the other primarchs, if anything he seemed to be a bit distainful towards some of his later 'allies' (lorgar,magnus and fulgrim). Unlike the rest he turned to the chaos gods on the way to terra after the betrayal not before or during. As i said at the start i cant see why he turned, so if anyone has any ideas or old canon to explain i would love to hear Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264678-what-caused-mortarion-to-turn-traitor/#findComment-3246406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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