Considering deamon allies

[John_f]

Well, I obviously wanna try the Epi/CSM combo but I am also tempted to include some screamer and flamers since they got really good in the latest update. The question is, is this viable or will the tally be lacklustering because I'm investing some 200 points into deamons without MoN? Has anyone had any experience with this?

 

Edit: In short, a 1750 list would look something like this:

 

Epi

Plaguebearers

Screamers

Flamers

~400p

 

Nurgle lord

Oblit MoN

Bikes MoN

Plague marines

Cultist

~1350p

[compgeek1602]

I've used the allied tally list before, and you want to keep it cheap, so basically epi and thirteen or so plaguebearers to hide him in. All those points you're using on models that don't up the tally are draining the effectiveness of your army. Your goal is to get the tally to 20+ as quickly as humanly possible, which means you need to be killing things with nurgle followers FAST. Havocs with AC's and MoN are ungodly at this. They start racking up the kills on the very first turn and just keep slaughtering things for a very long time. Oblits could take their place, but 8 S7 shots is very hard to replicate for 130 pts (4 AC's and MoN). 3 Oblits firing assault cannons can outshoot this unit, but only for one turn, then they have to fire something else, plus they're more expensive. 100 pts more expensive, to be exact. Everything in your entire army has to be marked as well, or killing things does not add to your tally and does not increase the effectiveness of your troops when you actually get the tally up.

[Kelanen]

You are trying to do 2 armies, and are doing both badly.

 

If you are doing a Tally list, then you want nothing without MoN/DoN, the possible exceptions being Plague Zombies and Soul Grinder.

 

Everything you buy without that makes it slower to get your tally up, and less useful when you do. A good tally list should have the tally maxed by turn 1/2 (about 60/40 for me) and then ride it to victory.

 

Screamers and flamers are great units, but for a different list. The same applies to stuff like HelDrakes in the CSM codex. Go all out for tally, or don't bother.

[dreyonar]

You are trying to do 2 armies, and are doing both badly.

 

If you are doing a Tally list, then you want nothing without MoN/DoN, the possible exceptions being Plague Zombies and Soul Grinder.

 

Everything you buy without that makes it slower to get your tally up, and less useful when you do. A good tally list should have the tally maxed by turn 1/2 (about 60/40 for me) and then ride it to victory.

 

Screamers and flamers are great units, but for a different list. The same applies to stuff like HelDrakes in the CSM codex. Go all out for tally, or don't bother.

 

but without a helldrake, how are you gonna deal with flyers?

the lack of anti-flyer is the weak spot I think.

 

And how can you deal with snipers?

[Azekai]

Heldrakes are not too great at fighting other fliers, and they are terrible at combating the really good fliers, like 'Cron scythes and Vendettas; but I agree that he certainly needs more AA capability (aegis gunline at the least)

 

 

I know screamers and flamers are stupid good right now, but throwing in daemons of Tzeentch into a tallyman list is as unfluffy as it is counterproductive. I think you would be better off with a daemon prince of Nurgle or even some more plaguebearers or Nurglings.

[dreyonar]

I think a aegis won't do that much

you only have 1 lascannon

first you need a 3+ to hit, then a 4+ to pren (at vendetta's) and then a 5+ to let it explode.

With a helldake with hades autocannons you need 4+, 5+, 6. but with 4 shots and when you glance 3 times he is wrecked.

Also you van choose to re-roll your hits one time.

 

It is not a really good AA but are their then any suggestions to take down flyers with csm with daemons allies?

Havocs with flakk is a option but it is only s7

[Azekai]

Yeah, I was thinking about the quad option for the aegis, but you are still right- not much help.

 

Flakk is something that I am anxious to try- havoks are not exactly long fangs, but what other choices to we have? I would be leery of putting a heldrake up against a single vendetta, let alone a squadron . . . and when that heldrake gets shot down it is going to make a very expensive wreck. :c

[John_f]

Yeah, I have reconsidered :cuss

[Kelanen]

but without a helldrake, how are you gonna deal with flyers?

the lack of anti-flyer is the weak spot I think.

 

And how can you deal with snipers?

 

Not really.

 

1) You don't actually need to deal with flyers, just endure them. The game is won on objectives, not killing your opponents stuff.

 

2) Havocs with Autocannons put enough shots out to be dangerous to flyers, and you also have Flakk Missiles, although I'd advise against them.

 

3) Camp that unit of Havocs behind an Aegis Line, and have the Champ man the Quad gun. this is excellent AA.

 

Against Vendetta spam, you pick #1, and concentrate on objectives and Troops. Against anything else #2 and #3 does just fine.

 

A Heldrake is not really your AA solution. The best Heldrakes run BaleFlamer for a start, and an AA Heldrake needs Hades. Vector Strike is not that amazing vs Flyers, they can still jink, and it's only S7. The problem flyers (ie: AV12 ones) are still a problem. A Heldrake helps your AA, but it's not a sole solution.

 

As to snipers? I use them myself in Eldar, but they are neither prevalent enough, nor powerful enough to worry about. what exactly is your issue?

[Circus Nurgling]

Your two best things in allying with Daemons right now (in a nurgle list) are 1: Tallyman and 2: T6 Daemon Princes that aren't slow and purposeful. If you want fast attack and shooty in your list, take it from the CSM codex.

[dreyonar]

but without a helldrake, how are you gonna deal with flyers?

the lack of anti-flyer is the weak spot I think.

 

And how can you deal with snipers?

 

As to snipers? I use them myself in Eldar, but they are neither prevalent enough, nor powerful enough to worry about. what exactly is your issue?

 

sniping epidemius

[compgeek1602]

Sniping Epi is, of course, a problem, but not nearly as much as you might think. They only are able to do this on a 6 to hit, which means that they are not going to be doing it very often. If they waste that many shots on plaguebearers, you are winning, simple as that. That entire unit is 305 points. If he's focusing that much firepower on it, you have effectively castrated his army, as the entire rest of your army is now free to slaughter whatever he has. I played a guy who was using eldar, and I DS'd epi plus 13 plaguebearers right into the center of his battle line. He spent the rest of the game trying to kill that unit while the rest of my army proceeded to do whatever the heck I wanted. I had TOTAL board control because he focused the attention of quite literally his entire army on one unit. Even if epi dies doing that, he already did his job, my friend.

 

As far as AA, havocs are great, and I really like that suggestions Kelanen had. I'm definitely trying that in my next game! I run missile launchers on my havocs with flakk missiles, because my opponents have a tendency to run lots of fliers. Double havoc autocannon squads will definitely put enough shots in the air to give most fliers pause, especially if you give one (or both) a quad gun. I can't believe I never thought of that before...... currently kicking myself for never trying fortifications!

 

Also, Heldrakes can, and will, smash lightly armored fliers, but again, they're right about the fact that against the really nasty fliers, they aren't enough. I've taken out stormtalons in one turn with my heldrake, but it's not a guarantee, and havocs do it better, honestly.

[Circus Nurgling]

Sniping Epi is, of course, a problem, but not nearly as much as you might think. They only are able to do this on a 6 to hit, which means that they are not going to be doing it very often. If they waste that many shots on plaguebearers, you are winning, simple as that. That entire unit is 305 points. If he's focusing that much firepower on it, you have effectively castrated his army, as the entire rest of your army is now free to slaughter whatever he has. I played a guy who was using eldar, and I DS'd epi plus 13 plaguebearers right into the center of his battle line. He spent the rest of the game trying to kill that unit while the rest of my army proceeded to do whatever the heck I wanted. I had TOTAL board control because he focused the attention of quite literally his entire army on one unit. Even if epi dies doing that, he already did his job, my friend.

 

As far as AA, havocs are great, and I really like that suggestions Kelanen had. I'm definitely trying that in my next game! I run missile launchers on my havocs with flakk missiles, because my opponents have a tendency to run lots of fliers. Double havoc autocannon squads will definitely put enough shots in the air to give most fliers pause, especially if you give one (or both) a quad gun. I can't believe I never thought of that before...... currently kicking myself for never trying fortifications!

 

Also, Heldrakes can, and will, smash lightly armored fliers, but again, they're right about the fact that against the really nasty fliers, they aren't enough. I've taken out stormtalons in one turn with my heldrake, but it's not a guarantee, and havocs do it better, honestly.

 

This is exactly what I do. Your flakk missiles are S7 anyway, and you only get 4 shots. You can buy a defense line and a quadgun for what that squad costs and have almost enough points left over for a AC havoc squad. Sure the missiles are more versatile (krak at S8) but quadgun gets free shots at anything coming from reserves as well. I put it right in between 2 AC havoc squads and let the champ control the quadgun.